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The Future of the Heineken Cup In Doubt?

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    Originally posted by sewa View Post
    England have played in three RWC finals, they didnt get to them by accident
    What a spurious argument! That doesn't have anything to do with whether or not their club game can be commercially competitive with the French.

    Comment


      The Irish teams don't rest their players in the Rabo so they can play in the HC. They rest them because of the IRFU's Player Management Programme whereby they are only allowed to play a set amount of matches in a year.

      I'm sure the RFU and the PRL have similar provisions in their "Elite Player Management Programmes"

      Comment


        Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post
        What a spurious argument! That doesn't have anything to do with whether or not their club game can be commercially competitive with the French.
        We wont know until they try and restructure and see if it works. Proceeding with crap like we do in Rabo wont fix anything
        My computer thinks I'm gay
        What's the difference anyway
        When all the people do all day
        Is stare into a phone

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          Originally posted by Piquet View Post
          The Irish teams don't rest their players in the Rabo so they can play in the HC. They rest them because of the IRFU's Player Management Programme whereby they are only allowed to play a set amount of matches in a year.

          I'm sure the RFU and the PRL have similar provisions in their "Elite Player Management Programmes"
          Not strictly true. Depends on the fixtures. If munster are playing Connacht one week and Clermont the next week there will be definitely players rested as you don't need your best team to beat us.

          Whether we like it or not they have a point on that. perhaps the only relvent point the AP have in the whole debate.
          I always knew Madigan was a closet Scrum Half. Ignore All things that suggest Continuity.

          Comment


            "Well considering the Irish season is built around the HC it's hardly surprising that we do better than the AP teams." Does that even make any sense? Maybe elaborate...

            Comment


              Harmonise the whole lot...Pro12 ,Aviva,Top 14 and Hcup into one NFL style...conferences , championship games and then the Superbowl* at the end.
              Still end up with your 3 conference winners (3 league winners) and overall Euro champ winner.
              Regular season would still involve games against your conference rivals (pro12 eg) and selection of games from other conference.

              One big pot of money and tv revenue.

              USA USA USA
              "Hell, I'm not saying I'm an angel, but when it came to dirty tricks I couldn't hold a candle to the Irish Mafia" Jimmy Hoffa

              Comment


                http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-u...medium=twitter

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Jackie Brown View Post
                  For anyone confused as to why the IRFU are siding with the FIR, SRU and WRU. Think about what could happen if the SRU and FIR in particular lost out on HC money. The odd season OK, but long term. It would destroy any hope of these unions being competitive at the top level. It would also destroy the Rabo, without which our provinces would also be scuppered.

                  The survival of Celtic and Italian rugby is at stake in these negotiations.
                  Precisely.

                  The English and French clubs are thinking like independent businesses. In a normal mature industry you always see consolidation. The strong swallow up the weak until just a few dominant players remain. That's what we're starting to see in the AP with the big four and in the T14 with the super-rich CA, Toulon, Racing etc. gradually taking control.

                  However, in sport that's a really stupid model to follow. Why? Because it's the competition as a whole that's the product, not the show provided by one particular club. If the strong get stronger and the weak get weaker, the product suffers. Sure, a couple of humdingers every season will be worth watching but the rest will be dross.

                  How do you improve the product? Make the weak stronger so everybody is competitive, every match is unpredictable and worth watching. Nobody can be allowed get too far ahead or fall too far behind or the league, the product, starts to crumble.

                  Also, because of the partisan nature of the customer for sports i.e. supporters, selling your product in new markets is a hell of a lot easier if you give them local participants in the competition. Can't really see many Italians interested in watching Leicester play Toulon, even if Castro is playing, but Leicester v Treviso on the other hand is worth a look.

                  So, to improve the product and sell it further afield, you've got to help the losers along a bit, rein in the winners and support some newbies while they get up to the required standard. It's counter intuitive to somebody who made their money flogging pizzas like Nigel Wray, but then, I don't think Nigel cares about the long term. He just wants something shiny for his mantelpiece.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by The Outlaw View Post
                    Not strictly true. Depends on the fixtures. If munster are playing Connacht one week and Clermont the next week there will be definitely players rested as you don't need your best team to beat us.

                    Whether we like it or not they have a point on that. perhaps the only relvent point the AP have in the whole debate.
                    Substitute, say, Newcastle for Connacht and the PRL teams do the same thing.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by NotreDameRFC View Post
                      Harmonise the whole lot...Pro12 ,Aviva,Top 14 and Hcup into one NFL style...conferences , championship games and then the Superbowl* at the end.
                      Still end up with your 3 conference winners (3 league winners) and overall Euro champ winner.
                      Regular season would still involve games against your conference rivals (pro12 eg) and selection of games from other conference.

                      One big pot of money and tv revenue.

                      USA USA USA

                      Think of the excitement every year when the draft approaches.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by sewa View Post
                        We wont know until they try and restructure and see if it works. Proceeding with crap like we do in Rabo wont fix anything
                        The Welsh have been more successful internationally in recent years, by your logic that means their regions are commercially strong. It makes no sense but, hey, you usually don't!

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by tickettout
                          Time to bow down to the English and French requests - It would be a catastrophe if there is no HEC in 12 months time.
                          England and France have excellent domestic leagues where the HEC is seen as secondary by alot of clubs.
                          We have a mickey mouse Rabo competition that fills the gaps in the year between HEC dates.
                          Make it harder to qualify (top 6) and reduce the number of teams down to 20 - it will eradicate some of the dead rubbers in the Rabo and keep our provinces afloat.

                          This argument of it being detrimental to the Scottish and Italian game doesn't wash with me. Both of them beat our green monkeys last March. If they are good enough over time they will find a way of making a top 6 finish - just like Exeter et al.
                          Don't listen to this Quisling, this fifth coulumnist. He's over there and has taken the Soup.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post
                            The Welsh have been more successful internationally in recent years, by your logic that means their regions are commercially strong. It makes no sense but, hey, you usually don't!
                            I am simply saying there is no point in English clubs persisting with a model which doesnt work for them. Similarly we persist with a joke of a league, what part of this is confusing for you?
                            My computer thinks I'm gay
                            What's the difference anyway
                            When all the people do all day
                            Is stare into a phone

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post
                              Precisely.

                              The English and French clubs are thinking like independent businesses. In a normal mature industry you always see consolidation. The strong swallow up the weak until just a few dominant players remain. That's what we're starting to see in the AP with the big four and in the T14 with the super-rich CA, Toulon, Racing etc. gradually taking control.

                              However, in sport that's a really stupid model to follow. Why? Because it's the competition as a whole that's the product, not the show provided by one particular club. If the strong get stronger and the weak get weaker, the product suffers. Sure, a couple of humdingers every season will be worth watching but the rest will be dross.

                              How do you improve the product? Make the weak stronger so everybody is competitive, every match is unpredictable and worth watching. Nobody can be allowed get too far ahead or fall too far behind or the league, the product, starts to crumble.

                              Also, because of the partisan nature of the customer for sports i.e. supporters, selling your product in new markets is a hell of a lot easier if you give them local participants in the competition. Can't really see many Italians interested in watching Leicester play Toulon, even if Castro is playing, but Leicester v Treviso on the other hand is worth a look.

                              So, to improve the product and sell it further afield, you've got to help the losers along a bit, rein in the winners and support some newbies while they get up to the required standard. It's counter intuitive to somebody who made their money flogging pizzas like Nigel Wray, but then, I don't think Nigel cares about the long term. He just wants something shiny for his mantelpiece.

                              We're 12 years waiting for the Italians and Scots to get there house in order. The Scots is all self-created as the likes of Geechs and Telfer have said.

                              If the Italians won't even go to watch Zebre and Treviso play -what difference will it be if Leicester play Toulon?
                              I always knew Madigan was a closet Scrum Half. Ignore All things that suggest Continuity.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by The Outlaw View Post
                                Not strictly true. Depends on the fixtures. If munster are playing Connacht one week and Clermont the next week there will be definitely players rested as you don't need your best team to beat us.

                                Whether we like it or not they have a point on that. perhaps the only relvent point the AP have in the whole debate.
                                Yeah but if Saracens were playing Newcastle (or whoever the resident whipping boys in the AP are this year) before playing Clermont they'd be resting top level players too.

                                If only there was a pertinent example one could use...

                                Oh yeah, there is.

                                Last year before Saracens played Munster in the TP H-Cup game they played Gloucester in the Aviva Premiership.

                                Brits, Ashton, Baritt, Farrell, Brown and Vunipola all sitting in the stands.

                                They were all in the squad 6 days later for the Munster game.
                                To The Brave And The Faithful, Nothing Is Unpublishable.

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