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The Future of the Heineken Cup In Doubt?

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    Originally posted by The Word Is Born View Post
    But how much is North's dog being paid to lick Mallinder's balls?
    Cucumber sandwich, Father...?
    Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

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      Originally posted by Burgers View Post
      Killing UL Bohs.
      A noble profession, indeed.
      The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves

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        Should Munster approach the Engish / French and ask can they join?
        My computer thinks I'm gay
        What's the difference anyway
        When all the people do all day
        Is stare into a phone

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          Originally posted by sewa View Post
          Should Munster approach the Engish / French and ask can they join?
          No. Not least because every player is employed by the IRFU, and the employer, and owner, and mega-creditor, of Munster has said: no.

          But I will virtually guarantee McCafferty will now use that post to claim, "There's been interest from Munster".
          Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

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            History would tell us if we ask the english ..they'll never leave and if we ask French they'll say they will come but will turn up too late.

            edit plus its leinsters job to invite the english.
            Last edited by NotreDameRFC; 13th-September-2013, 11:54.
            "Hell, I'm not saying I'm an angel, but when it came to dirty tricks I couldn't hold a candle to the Irish Mafia" Jimmy Hoffa

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              Originally posted by sewa View Post
              Should Munster approach the Engish / French and ask can they join?
              They could play the home games in Killarney!
              The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves

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                Think outside the box here guys, we get to fup all the other provinces and we never intended paying back the IRFU that cash so why not just make it official?
                My computer thinks I'm gay
                What's the difference anyway
                When all the people do all day
                Is stare into a phone

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                  Red hand hero - you say Ireland can get 15-20% of the 33.3% of money on offer from PRL/LNR? Surely to god they would be demanding 1/3 of it as we supply 4 of the 12 teams! That amounts to 8m or 2m each which is same as English clubs get.

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                    Originally posted by tickettout
                    Time to bow down to the English and French requests - It would be a catastrophe if there is no HEC in 12 months time.
                    England and France have excellent domestic leagues where the HEC is seen as secondary by alot of clubs.
                    We have a mickey mouse Rabo competition that fills the gaps in the year between HEC dates.
                    Make it harder to qualify (top 6) and reduce the number of teams down to 20 - it will eradicate some of the dead rubbers in the Rabo and keep our provinces afloat.

                    This argument of it being detrimental to the Scottish and Italian game doesn't wash with me. Both of them beat our green monkeys last March. If they are good enough over time they will find a way of making a top 6 finish - just like Exeter et al.


                    Don't be a nitwit. The game here only exists because we have consistently managed to prevent the English and French clubs owning NH rugby. Remember what it was like initially when we went pro, and it looked like, prior to Kiernan and Pugh facing down the first boycott, that they'd get their way?

                    And ask yourself this: if the AP is so great, how come PRL's chairman is saying most of them are losing money, and how come in the decade since 2003, the 6N has been won by teams coming from the Pro12 for half that time, with GS in 2005, 2008, 2009 and 2012, (and let's not forget the ball-buster of 2007), and the HEC 5 times, when the mighty AP has mustered one win - one - in the 6N and a whole two in the HEC?

                    On any results indicator - the AP is the weakest league.
                    Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

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                      Ticketout- the negotiations centre on money and control not format.

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                        The logic of why England should have the same amount of teams as four other countries is bogus. Why should they? Ahh but they all come from the one league. So what? if we disbanded the Rabo, which could yet happen, would the Irish then be entitled to 6 teams from the AIL, the welsh 6 from the premiership.
                        Its floating maths.
                        Seven social sins: politics without principles, wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, and worship without sacrifice



                        Comment


                          What is fascinating to me is how PRL have gone from "We must only have the best of the best" to "Come on, come all, any and all welcome". A complete volte-face, showing it really isn't about meritocracy.

                          Yet you can near guarantee the tame hacks aren't seeing that.

                          I will be perfectly honest, my position is moving. I would actually now welcome the English going. I've had it. The endless mendacity, the bullying, the incessant insistence that their turgid, money-losing, never-winning ****e is somehow gold, the complete inability to face the fact that, bluntly, they're drek and the results show they're drek, the lies - what they bring simply isn't worth it. I'd try to keep the French, because they are good and their fans are great and the venues are great. But going to somewhere like Coventry, or a ****-hole like Reading or Milton Keynes? Nah. Couldn't be bothered. Break them to slap down their owners' money-and-power grab, yes. But that done, and once Sky come on board with the cash to break BT, I really couldn't give a **** what they do. And I doubt I'm alone.

                          I don't think there'll be a HEC next year. I think European rugby may well be dead. Because, simply, I think the English have finally destroyed any goodwill here, and in most of the Pro12, to work with them. Looking at the fan forums here, MF.com is bloody placid compared to some.
                          Last edited by Thomond78; 13th-September-2013, 12:25.
                          Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

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                            I dont think anyone cares if you are sick of it T78, English rugby will be back from its dip sooner rather than later. Simple maths of number of players and financial resources are on their side
                            My computer thinks I'm gay
                            What's the difference anyway
                            When all the people do all day
                            Is stare into a phone

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                              Originally posted by sewa View Post
                              I dont think anyone cares if you are sick of it T78, English rugby will be back from its dip sooner rather than later. Simple maths of number of players and financial resources are on their side
                              Its dip has lasted a decade, Sewa. They haven't won it since 2007. And you and I know, the endless hype over mediocre English players on the basis of some delusion about the standard of the weakest league in Europe gets brutally exposed, time and time again. It's one of the regular highlights of the Lions, in fact - and yes, Tom Croft, I AM looking in your direction.
                              Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Red Hand Hero
                                Your auld arse, Connacht are just as dependent on the HEC as the rest. They might not have received quite the same amount of money from the IRFU but a lot of that is based on HEC revenue. Ulster also rode on the coat-tails of Leinster and Munster in that respect as well up until we finally managed to jump out of the group before you say anything as well.

                                As well all know by now money is what its all about and the reason the clubs; French and English, are trying to cede from the Unions is because both the RFU and FFR ensure that there is an equal split throughout the teams involved i.e. Leicester get the same as Bath who don't play in the HEC. I am also quite sure that's how it works in France as well though not 100%. What PRL want to do is increase their share first and foremost to an unreasonable 33.3%. This, frustratingly, unquestioned position that they bring 'the most' to the table is quite frankly a lie.

                                1-In the last 8 years, Wasps aside, their teams have been largely a non-entity in the latter stages of the HEC.
                                2-Their 'bums on seats' figures have been heavily subsidised by Irish supporters in particular-Milton Keynes for the Northampton/Ulster quarter final springs to mind as does Saracens versus Ulster last season where an estimated 15,000 Ulster fans (conservative) attended proceedings.
                                3-The spin that because they represent the biggest 'sky' region that the viewing figures somehow jutify their claims are equally spurious. I believe that viewing figures for the last 5/6 HEC finals have only seen a decline in the event of an all-french final and that the Leinster V Ulster had the highest TV viewing figures for a final as well as the largest single attendance at an HEC match.

                                The Heineken Cup is not broken. It can be improved and indeed should be improved within agreement of all the stakeholders. This is not Premier League or European soccer, the Unions exist to protect the best interests of the game not solely the commercial considerations. Bowing to the PRL/LNR would be the end of rugby as we know it because it will, initially, go the way of football.

                                What the PRL cannot see however is if this happened it would only be the start of things to come. English clubs, a few apart, are losing money year on year. None of the club owners are as ludicrously wealthy or perhaps as flagrant with their wealth as the Boujedalls, Lorretti's etc of this world. The English claim the salary cap inhibits them, thats ballocks of the highest order. Sarries, Leicester, the Stains and perhaps Quins could afford to break the salary cap...the rest#? Not a chance. There is also a limited demand for rugby in England as can be seen with Saracens, a supposed 'big' team only having a 10,000 seater stadium or something similar. Rugby, as a marketable product/attraction to sponsors is also not even remotely close. I know personally how difficult marketing even a successful rugby brand is or has been for the last 3/4 years especially when it came to negotiating deals signed in the boom times. The PRL are pinning all their hopes and dreams on a supposed mega-money TV deal which is a white elephant in the long term.

                                And the talk of leaving anyone behind is absurd. Irish Rugby probably could get a decent deal out of these planks, as a matter of opinion (my own) I could imagine Browne could probably demand perhaps a 15-20% share of the remaining 33.3% that the PRL/LNR are kindly offering us. They'd be mad to turn us down given the scale in which we as a support base travel to support our respective teams. The point is that the international game is still, thankfully, the highest level of the game within Rugby Union. The clubs have a vital role to play and should not be overly shackled when it comes to making money but it has to be remembered there is more in play here than money. We have 6 credible international rugby teams in Europe, there is then a significant drop off to the middle-tier teams like Georgia, Spain etc. It should be the aspiration of european rugby and world rugby to have 10/12 credible teams within the next two decades.

                                If power is given to PRL, Nigel Wray, Peter Toms, etc etc to hell with the rest is their stinking attitude and that is wrong.

                                Also, if players want to tiddle away off like Super Rob hinted, let them. Bring back a staunch ruling that only players playing in Ireland can play for Ireland. Provided we can get close to the going rate in terms of salary we ought to be able to hold onto our own by and large. Some offers will dwarf us-Sexton. Some players may genuinely want to play abroad-Heaslip strikes me as such a character. Fair enough, good luck to them but we don't have to pick em.
                                Afternoon. New here, thought I'd read a bit about the Munster view of the HEC, and thought I'd reply to your posts with a couple of points.

                                Your point:

                                As well all know by now money is what its all about and the reason the clubs; French and English, are trying to cede from the Unions is because both the RFU and FFR ensure that there is an equal split throughout the teams involved i.e. Leicester get the same as Bath who don't play in the HEC. I am also quite sure that's how it works in France as well though not 100%.t

                                It's not the RFU who ensure that the AP clubs get equal share. They would rather it isn't the case. It's PRL - the clubs - themselves. They do it to try and create equality of funding for all their members. It's the same for TV money and participation monies (not prize monies though) for all European and domestic competitions. So, yes, Bath and Leicester get roughly the same. It has nothing to do with the RFU, which the clubs are not trying to secede from - they can't, they signed a participation agreement which still has three years to run.

                                The French don't have this.

                                Your point about size of market - any market is worth what someone is willing to pay. BT have shown that European rugby with English clubs is worth a lot more than it was valued at, in its entirety, previously by ERC, who negotiated the Sky deals. So, unless the French or Rabo leagues can negotiate larger deals then you have to say it's the largest market, certainly in commercial terms.

                                Your point:

                                The English claim the salary cap inhibits them, thats ballocks of the highest order. Sarries, Leicester, the Stains and perhaps Quins could afford to break the salary cap...the rest#? Not a chance.

                                You can add Bath and Gloucester to that list. Bath are owned by a billionaire and Gloucester have a lot of money behind them. Exeter and Worcester are both on sound financial footings as well.
                                I could imagine Browne could probably demand perhaps a 15-20% share of the remaining 33.3% that the PRL/LNR are kindly offering us.

                                Ignoring that 20% of 33.3% is 6%, your point is valid; however both PRL and LNR have publicly stated that there will be no HEC from next season. That offer isn't on the table anymore.

                                My view is that, if ERC had actually negotiated and not tried to kick the can down the road while ignoring the concerns of their fellow stakeholders (of which the qualification criteria and the commercial negotiation were both very valid IMHO) - the PRL and LNR, then this situation would never have occurred. I do hope it's not too late for the HEC, but as it stands there won't be a HEC from next season. The blame for that has to fall on all who were tasked with negotiating the renewal of the European competitions, not just the PRL as some would have it.

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