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The Future of the Heineken Cup In Doubt?

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    The salary cap in England is a bit of a joke with some clubs. There is no way in hell the likes of Saracens are operating within the parameters of their salary cap, absolutely no chance. This has been highlighted by the likes of Mark Cueto from Sale and Brian Smith from London Irish. Of course a blind eye is turned!! I have a feeling there will be a bit of upheaval within the PRL over the next few weeks. Just recently players are coming out publicly for the first time saying they want to stay in the Heineken Cup and for the powers that be to sort the mess out. The likes of Harlequins, London Irish, Wasps, Exeter, Worcester, Sale will be the ones to start making moves, no way back for McCafferty then.

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      Originally posted by rathbaner View Post
      Tiger is woefully misinformed not only about the structure and finance of Irish rugby but also about the sheer scale of his ignorance on the matter. It's indicative of the torrent of misinformation, propaganda and plain old lies that have been peddled in the English press on this controversy.

      The French and the Irish have got their structures right. If the French thought the could squeeze another few teams into their league they would do so. If the Irish thought they could support more than 3.5 teams they would do so.

      but the English have cocked it up at every opportunity, poor players and impoverished teams are the mark of the English league. Worse than all that is a leadership with no imagination, no craft, no romance. In fact they are not even clever. They have signed a contract which locks them into stagnation. We will see them go backwards like Liverpool and Manchester Utd after the Heysel disaster saw the English clubs banned from European soccer competitions for five years.

      i hope it leads to their destruction. The PRL represent everything that rugby is not. If it survives it will inevitably destroy our game because there is simply not enough money in the European game to sate them. If they remain it's only a matter of time before they go after the real money, which is the Six Nations. With the RFU in their pocket they already have a seat at the top table. So the PRL should go the way of Rugby League or NFL, that's where the money is.

      go now. Good riddance.
      Nice rant. Feel better?

      Comment


        Originally posted by scrum5 View Post
        Tiger I believe each Province is allotted a sum of money and has to operate within those parameters, so effectively there is a salary cap, I also believe the AP has a salary cap and it is adhered to stringently....they also can sigh a marquee player and that doesn't count, you can also have a lot more foreign nationals playing than the Provinces can, so it appears to be a case of swings and roundabouts....
        So I wasn't wrong about the salary cap in Ireland then?

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          Originally posted by LastKnight View Post
          And there was me thumping the seat and roaring as JJ scored. :smile2:

          Clearly, I've got this wrong! :_faint__by_bad_bloo

          Might I ask if you enjoyed our last minute misery with Montpellier not bothering their arse to finish the game? :_plotting__by_bad_b

          Remember, before you answer, I'm an Ulsterman and I reserve the right to be offended whatever your answer!
          Tsk. We share an island, but we're not neighbours.

          Cannot believe you haven't picked up on who the neighbours are. ;)
          Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

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            Originally posted by Jos View Post
            A lot of your criticisms don't concern the H-Cup. The tax laws in Ireland, or the salary cap don't concern you. This is an Irish matter, and ERC has nothing to do with it.
            The only really valid point: the qualification system, and it will be largely corrected.On the problem of money, it's difficult to have a clear-cut opinion.
            Of course they bring less money than the French or English market (although it's difficult to be precise because you have England, Wales, Scotland together). But their sporting results and their fans provides attractiveness to the H-Cup. And it bring us money too, even if it's a difficult thing to quantify.Without them, the competition would be monotonous, less people (in France or in UK) would watch the games and sponsors would give us less money.
            To be fair with the Irish (even if the qualifying process isn't totally fair), they win because they're good. Otherwise Scottish and Welsh would have better sporting results.
            I don't disagree with any of that, the first five words your second paragraph aside (all factors add up for me). Your first point was one I made myself, in fact, in the very post you replied to.

            Your third and fourth points I totally agree with.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Tiger View Post
              So I wasn't wrong about the salary cap in Ireland then?
              You were wrong. You have a cap agreed by PRL, the IRFU who own and operate all four provinces decree what the salary cap is for each province, how many NIQs are allowed etc and none of the provinces cheat unlike the 'top' AP franchises.

              Comment


                Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
                You were wrong. You have a cap agreed by PRL, the IRFU who own and operate all four provinces decree what the salary cap is for each province, how many NIQs are allowed etc and none of the provinces cheat unlike the 'top' AP franchises.
                With the greatest respect, that's not a salary cap, it's an annual budget. The two are different things.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Tiger View Post
                  With the greatest respect, that's not a salary cap, it's an annual budget. The two are different things.
                  But the end result is the same.

                  The provinces can't spend money that they don't have on players wages.

                  A lot of the premiership clubs have a lack of basic budgeting skills and are looking at ways to plug holes in their budgets. They've spent money they don't have (Sarries).

                  Leicester and a few others (eg Exeter) are quite capable of living within their means and could teach some of the rest a thing or two.
                  "If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards - checkmate!" Zapp Brannigan

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Tiger View Post
                    Nice rant. Feel better?
                    I think to be fair you are trying here but you don't get Irish Rugby. It's not your fault, we've been working within it for years now and some still makes very little sense.

                    We, as provinces, are totally and centrally controlled by the IRFU and their whims and wishes.

                    They make the decisions and ultimately we will live or die by them.

                    For example Leinster lost Nathan Hines because the IRFU would not sanction a two year deal for an NIQ over 30.

                    Another rule we work within is 4 NIQ players and one project in our squads. 38 squad members and only 5 non-Irish qualified the PRL sides couldn't deal with that and the French simply wouldn't.

                    We could continue to go on and give poor mouth stories to counteract this BS notion that somehow everything is super duper and the iRFU effectively bank roll the provinces to HEC success.

                    The bottom line from an Irish POV is that the PRL are a shower of greedy bastids. Which I think is fairly clear. They are selfish, self-serving and have been caught out for being as much.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
                      Tsk. We share an island, but we're not neighbours.

                      Cannot believe you haven't picked up on who the neighbours are. ;)
                      Oh, I did, I did! ;)

                      But was that not misery that lasted 80 minutes culminating with a particular misery in the last minute?

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by LastKnight View Post
                        Oh, I did, I did! ;)

                        But was that not misery that lasted 80 minutes culminating with a particular misery in the last minute?
                        And what, pray, gave you the idea I enjoyed the rest of the misery any less...? ;)
                        Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Tiger View Post
                          So I wasn't wrong about the salary cap in Ireland then?
                          I've heard from Ulster's CEO that their player wage budget is pretty well the same as the AP salary cap.

                          There is a simple explanation. The AP salary cap figure wasn't pulled out of thin air. If a team is well run and supported they should be able to spend up to this figure on player wages and still make a modest profit. Ulster are well run (not always the case...), well supported, own their ground, make a small surplus, are under the same tax regime as the AP teams so Ulster's finances would be comparable to one of the larger AP teams, like Saints. When the IRFU's accountants do their sums, it is hardly a surprise they come up with a budget very close to the AP cap. The IRFU don't want to prop up the provinces financially unless they have to so Ulster need to live within their means.

                          Now when the Ravenhill redevelopment is finished, I'd expect Ulster's income to increase so in theory should be able to afford a bigger wage bill (just as Leicester could afford to spend more than the AP salary cap). However I'd be surprised if this happens as the IRFU certainly don't wish to encourage player wage inflation.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
                            And what, pray, gave you the idea I enjoyed the rest of the misery any less...? ;)
                            In fairness, I strongly suspected that that might be the case but didn't like to jump to conclusions. ;););)

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by mikerob View Post
                              I've heard from Ulster's CEO that their player wage budget is pretty well the same as the AP salary cap.

                              There is a simple explanation. The AP salary cap figure wasn't pulled out of thin air. If a team is well run and supported they should be able to spend up to this figure on player wages and still make a modest profit. Ulster are well run (not always the case...), well supported, own their ground, make a small surplus, are under the same tax regime as the AP teams so Ulster's finances would be comparable to one of the larger AP teams, like Saints. When the IRFU's accountants do their sums, it is hardly a surprise they come up with a budget very close to the AP cap. The IRFU don't want to prop up the provinces financially unless they have to so Ulster need to live within their means.

                              Now when the Ravenhill redevelopment is finished, I'd expect Ulster's income to increase so in theory should be able to afford a bigger wage bill (just as Leicester could afford to spend more than the AP salary cap). However I'd be surprised if this happens as the IRFU certainly don't wish to encourage player wage inflation.
                              Ive seen that before on uafc Mike. It's my memory that you trawled the IRFU accounts but couldn't find a breakdown of actual figures and the the CEO told you it was "more or less the same as the AP salary cap"?

                              I still don't know what accountancy practices are used to record the CC players (ie on the IRFU or Branches "tab").

                              Certainly, from what I've heard about our loan repayments and others it seems that financially the IRFU run a tight ship. As now do Ulster, thankfully. It took a while.

                              I still think a lot of the angst from English fans is lack of knowledge about the set up compounded by the constant "received wisdom" put out by their clubs.

                              In reality, we just set up our professional game well. Luck as much as anything else, but neverthess, well.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Owain View Post
                                Gallacher has resigned from the boards of the two organisations the Welsh regions are considering turning their backs on

                                The move will spark further speculation the Welsh regions are preparing to break away from the WRU and join the English Aviva Premiership from next season.

                                http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/r...stuart-6414735

                                In addition to the TV rights distribution of Broadcasting and Competition revenues row, this move is obviously also designed to move the RRW further towards the Aviva, and their friends in the PRL. No media spin from McCafferty,Wray etc at the moment, RRW are doing it all for them.
                                What's your reading of this Owain?

                                TBH I have no expectation that RRW will actually break away ... but then again.
                                'I am thankful for laughter, except when milk comes out of my nose' - Woody Allen

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