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The Future of the Heineken Cup In Doubt?

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    Leicester are a ridiculous outlier in England. The typical English team is, roughly, Sale or a loss-making Gloucester.
    Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

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      Originally posted by Jos View Post
      I really don't know how do you do your calculations. The new agreement guarantees each union one place in Rabo League. You don't have to guarantees it in Top 14 or in Aviva, because in these championship there is only one nation. For a team in top 14, there will be 6 qualifying places to H-Cup, so a probability of 42.86% ((6/14)x100).For an English team, this probability will be 50% ((6/12)x100)Now the most complicated cases: the Rabo League.There will be 8 qualifying places, but each Union will have at least one place.So for an Irish team: on these 8 places, you remove 3 places guaranteed to other Unions ( one Welsh, one Scottish, one Italian). You still have 5 places and you will compete with the 9 remaining teams.Finally you find a probability of 55.56% ((5/9)x100)
      Hard luck last weekend, Jos.
      Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

      Comment


        Gallacher has resigned from the boards of the two organisations the Welsh regions are considering turning their backs on

        The move will spark further speculation the Welsh regions are preparing to break away from the WRU and join the English Aviva Premiership from next season.

        http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/r...stuart-6414735

        In addition to the TV rights distribution of Broadcasting and Competition revenues row, this move is obviously also designed to move the RRW further towards the Aviva, and their friends in the PRL. No media spin from McCafferty,Wray etc at the moment, RRW are doing it all for them.
        Cé go bhfuil an namhaid trampled underfoot mo thír, fhios ag an teanga d'aois na Breataine Bige aon Retreat. Evan James 1856

        Comment


          Originally posted by Tiger View Post
          Do you bring 3 times more value than the Welsh? Their regions may beg to differ that this is an equitable arrangement.

          The advantages, as I mentioned, aren't on their own earth-shattering, but they do add up to make a difference.
          The only thing that really adds up to make a difference is the actual physical attendance at Irish provincial games, something from which our opponents in the Heineken cup and Rabo benefit massively.

          We will see again in Kingsholm the numbers of Munster supporters that will travel and subsidize our opponents through buying tickets. Makes up a lot for clubs that don't have enough supporters themselves.

          And on players leaving for the cash, Conor Murray has just turned down massive offers from France but chosen to remain loyal to his home province. Just because the English and Welsh players don't have any loyalty once the agents come knocking doesn't mean Irish players will behave the same way.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Tiger View Post
            Who is getting what wrong? There is no salary cap in Ireland.
            Tiger I believe each Province is allotted a sum of money and has to operate within those parameters, so effectively there is a salary cap, I also believe the AP has a salary cap and it is adhered to stringently....they also can sigh a marquee player and that doesn't count, you can also have a lot more foreign nationals playing than the Provinces can, so it appears to be a case of swings and roundabouts....
            The original scrum5, beware of imitations. Nevin Spence 1990-2012 Ulster's finest

            Comment


              Originally posted by Jos View Post
              I really don't know how do you do your calculations. The new agreement guarantees each union one place in Rabo League. You don't have to guarantees it in Top 14 or in Aviva, because in these championship there is only one nation. For a team in top 14, there will be 6 qualifying places to H-Cup, so a probability of 42.86% ((6/14)x100).For an English team, this probability will be 50% ((6/12)x100)Now the most complicated cases: the Rabo League.There will be 8 qualifying places, but each Union will have at least one place.So for an Irish team: on these 8 places, you remove 3 places guaranteed to other Unions ( one Welsh, one Scottish, one Italian). You still have 5 places and you will compete with the 9 remaining teams.Finally you find a probability of 55.56% ((5/9)x100)
              Jos the agreed format is 7 places for the pro12 of which each union is guarenteed 1 place. 7 - 4 = 3. 12 - 4 = 8. Therefore 8 teams compete for 3 places. That's 37.5% or am I dividing wrong?
              OK I see what you are doing now and your way is probably more accurate a percentage but its still 7 places - 3 giving 4 places being competed for by 9 teams or 44.444%
              Last edited by exiled to connacht; 17th-December-2013, 18:16.

              Comment


                Tiger is woefully misinformed not only about the structure and finance of Irish rugby but also about the sheer scale of his ignorance on the matter. It's indicative of the torrent of misinformation, propaganda and plain old lies that have been peddled in the English press on this controversy.

                The French and the Irish have got their structures right. If the French thought the could squeeze another few teams into their league they would do so. If the Irish thought they could support more than 3.5 teams they would do so.

                but the English have cocked it up at every opportunity, poor players and impoverished teams are the mark of the English league. Worse than all that is a leadership with no imagination, no craft, no romance. In fact they are not even clever. They have signed a contract which locks them into stagnation. We will see them go backwards like Liverpool and Manchester Utd after the Heysel disaster saw the English clubs banned from European soccer competitions for five years.

                i hope it leads to their destruction. The PRL represent everything that rugby is not. If it survives it will inevitably destroy our game because there is simply not enough money in the European game to sate them. If they remain it's only a matter of time before they go after the real money, which is the Six Nations. With the RFU in their pocket they already have a seat at the top table. So the PRL should go the way of Rugby League or NFL, that's where the money is.

                go now. Good riddance.
                Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2020.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Tiger View Post
                  Okay. Irish rugby has several structural advantages under the current set-up.Let's look at the TV breakdown. Irish rugby gets a much greater amount than it puts in from the 6N, Rabo and HEC broadcasting revenue. This was mentioned on previous pages, relating to the Welsh dissatisfaction with the distribution of the Pro 12 cash. This is essentially a subsidy from the other sides. The lack of qualifying in the Rabo does assist as well, insomuch even if the Irish teams are putting out full-strength sides, the sides they're playing don't have to win. The Welsh sides only have to beat Newport, and the Italians / Scottish are assured of qualifying. So they don't necessarily have to put everything into a game - look at how Edinburgh targetted the HEC last season. This means playing them in the league is easier and hence less punishing as they've really got nothing to play for. The Irish provinces also benefit from the tax exemption on sportsmen, which makes retaining players a lot easier as this lessens the financial benefits of playing abroad. Hence why only Sexton of the current squad is abroad. This doesn't apply to their rivals in Wales, Scotland, Italy or England - though England has to a degree lessened the impact of French club wealth by the Elite Squad arrangement, which forces players to remain in England if they wish to be considered for the national team. The truth of this can be seen in how many of the Scottish and Welsh squads now play in France. Their home provinces / clubs cannot afford to keep them so they naturally get weaker as their better players leave. These are direct competitors of the Irish provinces. What weakens them makes things easier for the Irish provinces. Finally, there's no salary cap in Ireland, which enables solid strength in depth to be developed and retained. On their own, each is not that earth-shattering. Put them together and there's clear competitive advantages over rival sides. Some of these are happy co-incidences, such as the tax break (I think it was originally aimed at horse racing?) and others are due to Irish rugby taking full advantage of its position or being clever negotiators (clearly the TV deals have been cleverly negotiated). As I said, it's impressive how Irish rugby has got its act together and created the conditions for such recent success, but there are reasons that this was possible. I also realise that some of these affect / benefit other countries' regions / clubs as well.Now it may well be up to others to alter their set-ups to maximise their chances of success. I've some sympathy for this view. But as it stands it's not the level playing field that some seem to think.
                  A lot of your criticisms don't concern the H-Cup. The tax laws in Ireland, or the salary cap don't concern you. This is an Irish matter, and ERC has nothing to do with it.
                  The only really valid point: the qualification system, and it will be largely corrected.On the problem of money, it's difficult to have a clear-cut opinion.
                  Of course they bring less money than the French or English market (although it's difficult to be precise because you have England, Wales, Scotland together). But their sporting results and their fans provides attractiveness to the H-Cup. And it bring us money too, even if it's a difficult thing to quantify.Without them, the competition would be monotonous, less people (in France or in UK) would watch the games and sponsors would give us less money.
                  To be fair with the Irish (even if the qualifying process isn't totally fair), they win because they're good. Otherwise Scottish and Welsh would have better sporting results.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Tiger View Post
                    Do you bring 3 times more value than the Welsh? Their regions may beg to differ that this is an equitable arrangement.

                    The advantages, as I mentioned, aren't on their own earth-shattering, but they do add up to make a difference.
                    Yes we bring easily 3 times value of Welsh.We travel with more supporters,and any town,city hosting H Cup love when they host us.The tills ring out like Christmas.
                    Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. (Marcus Aurelius, 121-189 AD)

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
                      Hard luck last weekend, Jos.

                      Hard luck? No, they were the better team with more experience. The only problem is: saturday I had good laugh at our catalan enemies...:o

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by scrum5 View Post
                        Tiger I believe each Province is allotted a sum of money and has to operate within those parameters, so effectively there is a salary cap, I also believe the AP has a salary cap and it is adhered to stringently....they also can sigh a marquee player and that doesn't count, you can also have a lot more foreign nationals playing than the Provinces can, so it appears to be a case of swings and roundabouts....
                        And there are an awful lot of players wives who seem to enjoy tremendous remuneration as well. Plenty of South African players seem to retire to rather lovely houses as well...

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by exiled to connacht View Post
                          Jos the agreed format is 7 places for the pro12 of which each union is guarenteed 1 place. 7 - 4 = 3. 12 - 4 = 8. Therefore 8 teams compete for 3 places. That's 37.5% or am I dividing wrong?OK I see what you are doing now and your way is probably more accurate a percentage but its still 7 places - 3 giving 4 places being competed for by 9 teams or 44.444%
                          It's 7 places for the next year? Goze said the H-Cup's winner wouldn't be automatically qualified, so I thought the Amlin's winner wouldn't be too.So it will give you: 44.44% ((4/9)x100).Ok you will have a harder qualification process than the Aviva league.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Jos View Post
                            A lot of your criticisms don't concern the H-Cup. The tax laws in Ireland, or the salary cap don't concern you. This is an Irish matter, and ERC has nothing to do with it.
                            The only really valid point: the qualification system, and it will be largely corrected.On the problem of money, it's difficult to have a clear-cut opinion.
                            Of course they bring less money than the French or English market (although it's difficult to be precise because you have England, Wales, Scotland together). But their sporting results and their fans provides attractiveness to the H-Cup. And it bring us money too, even if it's a difficult thing to quantify.Without them, the competition would be monotonous, less people (in France or in UK) would watch the games and sponsors would give us less money.
                            To be fair with the Irish (even if the qualifying process isn't totally fair), they win because they're good. Otherwise Scottish and Welsh would have better sporting results.
                            See tiger, the French are always on our side in the end. :)
                            The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad.
                            - Salvador Dali (1904-1989)

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Jos View Post
                              Hard luck? No, they were the better team with more experience. The only problem is: saturday I had good laugh at our catalan enemies...:o
                              Nothing wrong with enjoying the last-minute misery of the neighbours, mon vieux. ;)
                              Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
                                Nothing wrong with enjoying the last-minute misery of the neighbours, mon vieux. ;)
                                And there was me thumping the seat and roaring as JJ scored. :smile2:

                                Clearly, I've got this wrong! :_faint__by_bad_bloo

                                Might I ask if you enjoyed our last minute misery with Montpellier not bothering their arse to finish the game? :_plotting__by_bad_b

                                Remember, before you answer, I'm an Ulsterman and I reserve the right to be offended whatever your answer!

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