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    Jos and tiger you say that Irish teams still have it easier than a viva and top 14 teams under new qualification criteria. Jos even tries to prove it with percentages .
    AFAIK the new agreement guarantees each union 1 place. This includes top 14 and a viva although its a moot point.
    In the pro 12 there are 7 spots for 4 nations. If you remove the guaranteed spots , which IMO is a necessary evil, that leaves 3 spots between 8 teams of 37.5%. That compares unfavourably to top 14 s 5/13 or 38.45% and avivas 5/11 or 45.45%

    Comment


      Is this another Wheeler/Bouscatel scenario? It would on the face of it, appear Stuart Gallacher (RRW) whilst part of ERC, was party to the TV revenue distribution agreements. According to the WRU as above, no objections were ever risen to the distribution agreements. Again according to the above, some time last week it would appear Gallacher resigned, although it has only surfaced today.. On 15th Dec, the RRW released their demands for an independant inquiry into the unions distribution of funds. Then today we have the media announcement of Gallachers resignation. I'm not sure how RRW can ask for an independant inquiry into something they were actually part of? This is no doubt though another attempt to also push towards the PRL & Aviva, and away from the P12 & HC. Messy or what !
      Last edited by Owain; 17th-December-2013, 16:54.
      Cé go bhfuil an namhaid trampled underfoot mo thír, fhios ag an teanga d'aois na Breataine Bige aon Retreat. Evan James 1856

      Comment


        Originally posted by diarm View Post
        The trolling comment was in direct reference to your post. I don't think somebody with a different viewpoint is dense but I do think people should be able to back their points up with coherent arguments.

        You have repeatedly stated that the pro 12 and hec systems benefit the Irish provinces over all other teams. So I'll ask again, please outline clearly, exactly how we benefit more than others?

        And this time, please don't deliberately misconstru my post to avoid the crux of the issue.
        Okay. Irish rugby has several structural advantages under the current set-up.
        Let's look at the TV breakdown. Irish rugby gets a much greater amount than it puts in from the 6N, Rabo and HEC broadcasting revenue. This was mentioned on previous pages, relating to the Welsh dissatisfaction with the distribution of the Pro 12 cash. This is essentially a subsidy from the other sides.

        The lack of qualifying in the Rabo does assist as well, insomuch even if the Irish teams are putting out full-strength sides, the sides they're playing don't have to win. The Welsh sides only have to beat Newport, and the Italians / Scottish are assured of qualifying. So they don't necessarily have to put everything into a game - look at how Edinburgh targetted the HEC last season. This means playing them in the league is easier and hence less punishing as they've really got nothing to play for.

        The Irish provinces also benefit from the tax exemption on sportsmen, which makes retaining players a lot easier as this lessens the financial benefits of playing abroad. Hence why only Sexton of the current squad is abroad. This doesn't apply to their rivals in Wales, Scotland, Italy or England - though England has to a degree lessened the impact of French club wealth by the Elite Squad arrangement, which forces players to remain in England if they wish to be considered for the national team. The truth of this can be seen in how many of the Scottish and Welsh squads now play in France. Their home provinces / clubs cannot afford to keep them so they naturally get weaker as their better players leave. These are direct competitors of the Irish provinces. What weakens them makes things easier for the Irish provinces.

        Finally, there's no salary cap in Ireland, which enables solid strength in depth to be developed and retained. On their own, each is not that earth-shattering. Put them together and there's clear competitive advantages over rival sides. Some of these are happy co-incidences, such as the tax break (I think it was originally aimed at horse racing?) and others are due to Irish rugby taking full advantage of its position or being clever negotiators (clearly the TV deals have been cleverly negotiated). As I said, it's impressive how Irish rugby has got its act together and created the conditions for such recent success, but there are reasons that this was possible. I also realise that some of these affect / benefit other countries' regions / clubs as well.

        Now it may well be up to others to alter their set-ups to maximise their chances of success. I've some sympathy for this view. But as it stands it's not the level playing field that some seem to think.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Jackie Brown View Post
          Shows young Tiger hasn't a notion.
          Someone pointed out on the previous page that Leinster have actually had external funding.

          Comment


            Originally posted by mikerob View Post
            The thing is, the IRFU didn't get their house in order from day 1. When professionalism happened, loads of Irish players buggered off to play in English clubs and it was things like playing Irish squad sessions over in England convinced the IRFU that they wanted to bring players home. The IRFU also lucked out in that the provinces reflected the existing IRFU organisation and were ideal format for the level below international rugby, unlike in Scotland and Wales who had to figure out what their structure was, Wales in particular as every village or town has a team and they all hate the town a few miles down the road.
            All fair comment.

            Comment


              Originally posted by mikerob View Post
              However from a sports rights perspective, England isn't a country. That's one of the reasons why the PRL deal for European rugby sticks in the craw because it is a UK deal with the English clubs claiming all the money.
              The likes of Sky and BT are used to dealing with "England", from the footballing perspective.

              I don't claim to know all the details regarding the BT deal.

              Comment


                I hate BT,I wish them bad,they are arrogant,expensive,and stroppy, even to their existing customers.I'd rather use pigeons than have a BT line.
                Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. (Marcus Aurelius, 121-189 AD)

                Comment


                  Seriously, the more you read about the RRW and their financial acumen the more they and the PRL are well suited together, also how can the Scarlets get £20 million of tax payers money and still be in debt.....
                  The original scrum5, beware of imitations. Nevin Spence 1990-2012 Ulster's finest

                  Comment


                    Tiger in relation to your point about TV money you forget one vital component in all revenue splits.
                    We add value to all 3 competitions and are compensated accordingly. Some more than others admittedly but without s strong Irish presence in each competition mentioned the bargaining power of each comp would be reduced. In relation to the Heineken cup this has already been addressed so why raise it again?
                    In relation to qualification this has already been addressed also so we continue to go over old ground.
                    The tax rebate doesn't exist in the north of Ireland where afaik all ulster players are based and they can retain their players so there is more to why players stay than the rebate.
                    While we have no salary cap we have budgets and other self imposed rules to consider. The most prominent of these is being limited to 3 niq players and 1 project ,only being allowed 1 niq per position across the provinces and only granting 1 yr contracts to niq players aged over 30.
                    So the advantages aren't as clear as you think or have already been addressed or earned through performance , travelling support and viewing figures

                    Comment


                      Still getting it wrong Tiger, there is a salary cap, also Ulster does not receive tax exemptions
                      The original scrum5, beware of imitations. Nevin Spence 1990-2012 Ulster's finest

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Tiger View Post
                        The lack of qualifying in the Rabo does assist as well, insomuch even if the Irish teams are putting out full-strength sides, the sides they're playing don't have to win. The Welsh sides only have to beat Newport, and the Italians / Scottish are assured of qualifying. So they don't necessarily have to put everything into a game - look at how Edinburgh targetted the HEC last season. This means playing them in the league is easier and hence less punishing as they've really got nothing to play for.
                        Thing is, to get ahead of the last team on your leg, you still have to win. You can't actually rest easy unless and until the others cock up horrifically. The big four at the front of the AP rest players more than we do; the way Saracens or Stains do it is notable, and has been dealt with here.

                        The Irish provinces also benefit from the tax exemption on sportsmen, which makes retaining players a lot easier as this lessens the financial benefits of playing abroad. Hence why only Sexton of the current squad is abroad. This doesn't apply to their rivals in Wales, Scotland, Italy or England - though England has to a degree lessened the impact of French club wealth by the Elite Squad arrangement, which forces players to remain in England if they wish to be considered for the national team. The truth of this can be seen in how many of the Scottish and Welsh squads now play in France. Their home provinces / clubs cannot afford to keep them so they naturally get weaker as their better players leave. These are direct competitors of the Irish provinces. What weakens them makes things easier for the Irish provinces.
                        Ulster don't. A point that is invariably forgotten in this discussion.

                        Finally, there's no salary cap in Ireland, which enables solid strength in depth to be developed and retained. On their own, each is not that earth-shattering. Put them together and there's clear competitive advantages over rival sides. Some of these are happy co-incidences, such as the tax break (I think it was originally aimed at horse racing?) and others are due to Irish rugby taking full advantage of its position or being clever negotiators (clearly the TV deals have been cleverly negotiated). As I said, it's impressive how Irish rugby has got its act together and created the conditions for such recent success, but there are reasons that this was possible. I also realise that some of these affect / benefit other countries' regions / clubs as well.
                        The salary cap is there, bluntly, for your own protection. It's actually a voluntary collective restriction on competition in the market for player services, and an eminently sensible and proportionate one to achieve the necessary aim of continued competition on the pitch. Without it, teams would be dead long since. We don't suffer the same need, because we produce more home-grown players. Ironically, on this one, it's the Irish have open competition, the English who have a collective deal.
                        Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by scrum5 View Post
                          Still getting it wrong Tiger, there is a salary cap, also Ulster does not receive tax exemptions
                          Who is getting what wrong? There is no salary cap in Ireland.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by exiled to connacht View Post
                            Tiger in relation to your point about TV money you forget one vital component in all revenue splits.
                            We add value to all 3 competitions and are compensated accordingly. Some more than others admittedly but without s strong Irish presence in each competition mentioned the bargaining power of each comp would be reduced. In relation to the Heineken cup this has already been addressed so why raise it again?
                            In relation to qualification this has already been addressed also so we continue to go over old ground.
                            The tax rebate doesn't exist in the north of Ireland where afaik all ulster players are based and they can retain their players so there is more to why players stay than the rebate.
                            While we have no salary cap we have budgets and other self imposed rules to consider. The most prominent of these is being limited to 3 niq players and 1 project ,only being allowed 1 niq per position across the provinces and only granting 1 yr contracts to niq players aged over 30.
                            So the advantages aren't as clear as you think or have already been addressed or earned through performance , travelling support and viewing figures
                            Do you bring 3 times more value than the Welsh? Their regions may beg to differ that this is an equitable arrangement.

                            The advantages, as I mentioned, aren't on their own earth-shattering, but they do add up to make a difference.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
                              Thing is, to get ahead of the last team on your leg, you still have to win. You can't actually rest easy unless and until the others cock up horrifically. The big four at the front of the AP rest players more than we do; the way Saracens or Stains do it is notable, and has been dealt with here.
                              Leicester don't. Dan Cole has started virtually every game I've seen this season.

                              Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
                              Ulster don't. A point that is invariably forgotten in this discussion.
                              But Leinster and Munster do. And Connacht.


                              Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
                              The salary cap is there, bluntly, for your own protection. It's actually a voluntary collective restriction on competition in the market for player services, and an eminently sensible and proportionate one to achieve the necessary aim of continued competition on the pitch. Without it, teams would be dead long since. We don't suffer the same need, because we produce more home-grown players. Ironically, on this one, it's the Irish have open competition, the English who have a collective deal.
                              The salary cap inhibits the top English sides, the ones who are likely to be challenging for the HEC. They're the ones who generally can afford to spend more on their squads if they wanted to. That's the advantage. It doesn't really matter, for this discussion about perceived advantages in Europe, whether Newcastle, Exeter or Worcester can afford to pay more on their squads, it's not really relevant. It does mean though that Leinster can afford to have more depth than Saracens or Northampton.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by exiled to connacht View Post
                                Jos and tiger you say that Irish teams still have it easier than a viva and top 14 teams under new qualification criteria. Jos even tries to prove it with percentages .AFAIK the new agreement guarantees each union 1 place. This includes top 14 and a viva although its a moot point. In the pro 12 there are 7 spots for 4 nations. If you remove the guaranteed spots , which IMO is a necessary evil, that leaves 3 spots between 8 teams of 37.5%. That compares unfavourably to top 14 s 5/13 or 38.45% and avivas 5/11 or 45.45%
                                I really don't know how do you do your calculations. The new agreement guarantees each union one place in Rabo League. You don't have to guarantees it in Top 14 or in Aviva, because in these championship there is only one nation. For a team in top 14, there will be 6 qualifying places to H-Cup, so a probability of 42.86% ((6/14)x100).For an English team, this probability will be 50% ((6/12)x100)Now the most complicated cases: the Rabo League.There will be 8 qualifying places, but each Union will have at least one place.So for an Irish team: on these 8 places, you remove 3 places guaranteed to other Unions ( one Welsh, one Scottish, one Italian). You still have 5 places and you will compete with the 9 remaining teams.Finally you find a probability of 55.56% ((5/9)x100)

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