Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Future of the Heineken Cup In Doubt?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #46
    Originally posted by Mardyke Maverick View Post
    As per usual, your argument (or poorly letter ad hominum attack) completely ignores the actual facts about what is currently taking place.
    "As per usual".

    Heh. I'm honored that someone that has an inside line to every contract on the table in Munster AND a crystal ball into various alternate timelines feels the need to critique. Careful now Mav, if you get out of your comfort zone of passing tedious, broken clock negativity off as STRAIGHTSHOOTIN'NOBOOLSHEET punditry you'll get caught spoofing. Again.
    To The Brave and the Faithful, Nothing is Unpublishable.

    Comment


      #47
      Originally posted by Piquet View Post
      There isn't, T78. Taking your example:
      11th May Connacht v Grenoble
      18th May Grenoble v Wasps
      25th May Wasps v Connacht
      1st June Grenoble v Connacht
      8th June Wasps v Grenoble
      15th June Connacht v Wasps.
      Then a modified play-off. Draw for who's in the first game, and who's at home in that game.

      11th May Connacht v Grenoble
      18th May Grenoble v Wasps
      25th May Wasps v Connacht

      Done.
      Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

      Comment


        #48
        Originally posted by joeriddick View Post
        "As per usual".

        Heh. I'm honored that someone that has an inside line to every contract on the table in Munster AND a crystal ball into various alternate timelines feels the need to critique. Careful now Mav, if you get out of your comfort zone of passing tedious, broken clock negativity off as STRAIGHTSHOOTIN'NOBOOLSHEET punditry you'll get caught spoofing. Again.
        "Poorly letter ad hominum" is a cracker.

        No doubt he'll claim that's an ad hominem.
        Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

        Comment


          #49
          The H-Cup does need to change regarding the Pro12, I can see the French and English point on that.

          As RHH says, anything that improves the competitiveness of the Pro12 outside the interpros and select games like the Ospreys has to be a good thing.

          It would increase revenues and interest in the product.

          Something like a Top 6 + Best Placed Italian and a 7 vs 8 playoff might work.

          I'm not sure if end of season inter country play offs would work or be fair to some of the Pro12. Keep any playoff in the league and you have a money spinner, if nothing else.
          Last edited by joeriddick; 1st-May-2013, 11:59.
          To The Brave and the Faithful, Nothing is Unpublishable.

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
            "Poorly letter ad hominum" is a cracker.

            No doubt he'll claim that's an ad hominem.
            I presume "ad hominum" is latin for "punch self in own face".
            To The Brave and the Faithful, Nothing is Unpublishable.

            Comment


              #51
              Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
              Do not underestimate the belligerent, arrogant stupidity of McCafferty and Wray. They truly believe reality is as they wish it to be. Negotiating with people like that can be impossible, because they don't even see the weaknesses in their own case that means they should do a deal.
              I agree re wray and mccaf. I watched this unfold since season started by following the english media, blogs and forums and imo there is a strategy in place and a definate patern in terms of shifting of position by them. They are trying to manipulate a move to a middle ground controlled by them. That middle ground imo is a 20 team hec split 6/6/8 and amlin in a 20 team format also split 8/6/4/2. That reduces teams by 4 thus increasing revenue. They want seedings to take into consideration domestic lge performance to compensate for pro12 teams easier qualification and access to ranking points. They(english) need to award somd tv rights to bt to secure their deal. This is crucial as 8 out of 12 AP. Teams are losing money. The french need to clear may for domestic competion playoffs and bothh french and english want money divided among clubs not unions. Afaik this isnt a biggy as the percentages are based on this generally anyway. That leaves a lot of room for negotiation on their part.
              The big card in their hand is that england and france generate the money.

              Comment


                #52
                Uk viewing figures for the finals. I expect pretty low ones this year as it's French v French.

                2012 - 309,000 - Leinster v Ulster
                2011 - 400,000 - Leinster v Northampton
                2010 - 161,000 - Toulouse v Biarritz
                2009 - 339,000 - Leinster v Leicester
                2008 - 137,000 - Munster v Toulouse
                2007 - 258,000 - Wasps v Tigers
                2006 - 315,000 - Munster v Biarritz
                2005 - 179,000 - Toulouse v Stade Francais
                2004 - 140,000 - Wasps v Toulouse
                2003 - 130,000 - Toulouse v Perpignan
                Please support Milford Hospice. Click here to donate.

                Comment


                  #53
                  I think, open to correction, that the Rabo qualifiers next year based on the league table at present would be Ulster, Leinster, Glasgow, Scarlets top 4, Ospreys and Treviso, if this system was used. It would certainly change attitudes to the league in some quarters. A bit of pressure on league performance to qualify for the HC can only be good for the Rabo.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by exiled to connacht View Post
                    They want seedings to take into consideration domestic lge performance to compensate for pro12 teams easier qualification and access to ranking points.
                    To be honest, that isn't a bad idea. You can measure the effectiveness of a seeding system by how good it is at predicting results. Being a bit of a geek, I checked how good the ERC rankings were at predicting HEC quarterfinalists and it has a 55% success rate over the last 5 years. I then checked what the Eurotable rankings would have predicted (Eurotable does include domestic results) and it was exactly the same as ERC. However the groups are based upon ERC, not Eurotable. It is impossible to say what the results would have been if the HEC groups were based on Eurotable, but given Eurotable is the same as ERC now when it comes to predictions, it seems safe to assume it would be better than ERC if the HEC groups used Eurotable. If there is going to be seeding, then it seems sensible to use a more effective system. The alternative is not to bother with seeding and just have an open draw.

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post
                      Uk viewing figures for the finals. I expect pretty low ones this year as it's French v French.

                      2012 - 309,000 - Leinster v Ulster
                      2011 - 400,000 - Leinster v Northampton
                      2010 - 161,000 - Toulouse v Biarritz
                      2009 - 339,000 - Leinster v Leicester
                      2008 - 137,000 - Munster v Toulouse
                      2007 - 258,000 - Wasps v Tigers
                      2006 - 315,000 - Munster v Biarritz
                      2005 - 179,000 - Toulouse v Stade Francais
                      2004 - 140,000 - Wasps v Toulouse
                      2003 - 130,000 - Toulouse v Perpignan
                      Surely those viewing figures for 2008 are wrong???

                      Comment


                        #56
                        They are the UK only figures. I can't seem to get the Irish and French ones but I'm still digging ....
                        Please support Milford Hospice. Click here to donate.

                        Comment


                          #57
                          The Rabo/ML/CL whatever you want to call it is still in relative infancy to the Premiership and T14 because insofar as it was 5 years behind in strictly professional terms but in terms of an existing league with existing rivalries it is light-years behind bearing in mind the premiership or old "Division One" was there for eons and same applies with the french leagues.

                          As a product I think the Rabo has excellent marketing potential-Welsh are rugby mad if not currently enthused by the regions. Scotland struggles in competition with football-always has and probably always will, but there is a definite room to improve popularity if small successes-Edinburgh HEC semi last year, Glasgow in the Rabo this year etc can be built upon. The game in Italy is growing well and the more Italian internatinals that ply their trade in the regions the better it will also become. The problem at the moment is that we are a bit too socialist in terms of everyone is pretty much guaranteed a share of the HEC pie, the Italians and Scottish in particular are a joke to be allowed 100% entry. Competition breeds innovation and innovation breeds success, we need to freshen the league up, just a little, and that will make the league a better product IMO.

                          The important thing in any negotiations from our perspective is that the Celtalians are not seen to be as equally ignorant as the English. The Rabo need to stick together, no doubt, but they also need to get a few home truths out in the open as well and that starts with reducing everyone's right to more than one place in the Heineken.

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Originally posted by exiled to connacht View Post
                            I think many of you are missing the point of any negotiation which is compromise.
                            Lets not forget the English have 6 teams, the French have 6 teams, the Irish 3 the Welsh 3 and the Italians and Scots 2 each. There has already been compromise. The English and French get a bigger slice of the TV pie than anyone else. So more compromise there.


                            Is it true that the English need the HEC for their BT deal to go through? If they do they must be sweating now. The Rabo unions will know this. I'd like to see how English fans would react to an English/French tournament. The Saracens/Toulon semi final attendance was a joke.


                            I don't think the Unions should give in to the demands. If they do it could have major consequences down the line.


                            I see plenty of reasons not to panic from the Rabo point of view.
                            - TV deal with sky. Sky need more rugby.
                            - The rabo season can be organised better and marketed better with teams able to put out their best players.
                            - Better quality league means more fans will turn up and it would be worth more to sell the TV rights.
                            - They can organise one or two more international matches per year or maybe create an international tournament with invites to other nations.
                            - Less pressure on the front line players so they'll be less likely to get injured.
                            - The provincial squads can be trimmed down since there would be less games.
                            - A celtic/Italian cup or B league could be created to keep the squad fringe members fresh.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Originally posted by Consi View Post
                              Surely those viewing figures for 2008 are wrong???
                              Probably because all Munster supporters are jammed into the pubs. More important is the viewing figures involving Irish teams. All figures above 300K involve an Irish team. We should demand five teams in the HC!
                              He's a guy who gets up at six o'clock in the morning regardless of what time it is.

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Originally posted by dropkick View Post
                                Lets not forget the English have 6 teams, the French have 6 teams, the Irish 3 the Welsh 3 and the Italians and Scots 2 each. There has already been compromise. The English and French get a bigger slice of the TV pie than anyone else. So more compromise there.


                                Is it true that the English need the HEC for their BT deal to go through? If they do they must be sweating now. The Rabo unions will know this. I'd like to see how English fans would react to an English/French tournament. The Saracens/Toulon semi final attendance was a joke.


                                I don't think the Unions should give in to the demands. If they do it could have major consequences down the line.


                                I see plenty of reasons not to panic from the Rabo point of view.
                                - TV deal with sky. Sky need more rugby.
                                - The rabo season can be organised better and marketed better with teams able to put out their best players.
                                - Better quality league means more fans will turn up and it would be worth more to sell the TV rights.
                                - They can organise one or two more international matches per year or maybe create an international tournament with invites to other nations.
                                - Less pressure on the front line players so they'll be less likely to get injured.
                                - The provincial squads can be trimmed down since there would be less games.
                                - A celtic/Italian cup or B league could be created to keep the squad fringe members fresh.
                                My point would be that I think that change is needed to some degree. The Scottish and Italians in particular should not be guaranteed two places in the HEC, Treviso have improved in both the league and HEC but Zebre have comprehensively not. Edinburgh bombed this season in both league and HEC, Glasgow bombed in the HEC but have improved substantially since Christmas in the league. The Welsh are in disarray at the moment, complete and utter. The Blues and Dragons are pathetic and whomsoever gets the Blues in the HEC next season as second seeds will be blessed. These poor performers undermine our collective cause to the outside. If we are seen to make small, and IMO necessary, movements in favour of the new requests from France/England then we are still in a strong position to play England off against the French.

                                That is the reality in my opinion...not that its worth very much.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X