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    Originally posted by NotreDameRFC View Post
    Glasgow and Edinburgh are a match if not better (especially Glasgow) for anything outside Top 4 in English Pship.
    Gloucester, London Irish, Wasps, Exeter, Sale, Newcastle,Bath or Worcester.
    Journos are misguided if they think those clubs will add quality to existing or new Anglo French cup.
    Edinburgh are truly awful. Bottom 3 in the GP. Glasgow would do ok in the GP alright. Zebre are Div 2 standard. Treviso - would be as good as Newcastle and Worcester and Sale.

    Its not a point we're going to win on. If we can get Top 6 Rabo qualification with equitable split of cash we should grab it. This crack of a country being guaranteed entry isn't a runner anymore.
    I always knew Madigan was a closet Scrum Half. Ignore All things that suggest Continuity.

    Comment


      Originally posted by sewa View Post
      There is no evidence that salary caps are working in England, in fact there is plenty of evidence that they are being largely ignored with all sorts of tricks being used to beat the cap
      No evidence? I'd suggest that, while there are abuses, the continuing existence of some of the clubs is evidence that they are working to a degree.

      Salary caps work if everybody buys into the concept. The problem is that all the different leagues operate different systems yet we frequently compete on the same playing field in European competition. As a result the temptation is always there to try to break the cap just to get that one signing that might bring success. Club directors can justify it to themselves when they see their rivals in France, teams they'll come up against in the HEC, spending millions more than them.

      The approach in American sports like the NHL and NFL is much smarter. Through salary caps, managed distribution of revenues and the allocation of draft picks, they ensure that nobody gets too great an advantage and therefore nobody can become too dominant on the field and all can thrive. It's a sustainable and profitable business model (unlike soccer, where players and agents make a fortune and everybody else loses their shirt).

      We can't operate in quite the same way but if all of rugby's stakeholders were smart about it they'd be looking for ways to come up with something similar. Compete on the pitch, collaborate off it. Other forms of sport and entertainment are our real commercial competition for TV money, sponsorhship and bums on seats. Clubs and unions competing with one another commercially just results in cannibalisation and ultimately weakens the sport and its consituents.

      Comment


        Originally posted by The Outlaw View Post
        They only have to sign our elite to hurt the Rabo. They haven't signed all welsh players- only the best.

        10 players?- Of course our top 10 internationals are capable of plying their trade at a top french club.
        Of course they could. And we'd still have rugby, like we've had it for a century or more.

        The game is the thing, not the current commercial model.

        If there was no pro rugby, and we were back to a muddy field and thirty lads from the parish then grand.

        Rather that than see the game bent and twisted into a rich man's play thing,
        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

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          **MOD EDIT** Nigel Wray? **MOD EDIT**

          I can't believe we're still hearing about commercial acumen from a man who's spent millions over 15 years turning Saracens from a club with 5,000 supporters into a club with about 10,000 supporters, still well below the numbers needed for solvency. Exeter managed the same trick in about five years for a fraction of the cost. I'd very much like to hear their chairman's opinions on all this, but I wouldn't trust Wray to run a brothel on an oil-rig.

          Comment


            so are they meeting for a few days or what? when are we likely to see an end to whatever happens?
            "Some people don't know their easy lives... I wouldn't be so ungrateful" - Fiacre Ryan - #AutismAndMe

            Comment


              Originally posted by The Outlaw View Post
              Edinburgh are truly awful. Bottom 3 in the GP. Glasgow would do ok in the GP alright. Zebre are Div 2 standard. Treviso - would be as good as Newcastle and Worcester and Sale.

              Its not a point we're going to win on. If we can get Top 6 Rabo qualification with equitable split of cash we should grab it. This crack of a country being guaranteed entry isn't a runner anymore.
              Cannot agree with that in any sense. It is a European Cup in a relatively minor European Sport (minor in the sense of countries playing to a high level). If it is to have any relevance then every country needs to have at least one entry. Even soccer recognises that and that is a sport played at a high level by pretty much all European countries, yet in the European cup in recent years there has been Swiss, Cypriot, Czech, Greek, Danish & Austrian teams in the main stages. In the qualifying stages it has been made easier for teams from small countries to get to the main stage as it is seen to be in general all for the good of the game.

              If it is for the good of the game in soccer that there is a widespread in European competition then it is absolutely critical for a minor sport.
              I am one of the 5 clowns woo hoo

              Comment


                Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post
                No evidence? I'd suggest that, while there are abuses, the continuing existence of some of the clubs is evidence that they are working to a degree.

                Salary caps work if everybody buys into the concept. The problem is that all the different leagues operate different systems yet we frequently compete on the same playing field in European competition. As a result the temptation is always there to try to break the cap just to get that one signing that might bring success. Club directors can justify it to themselves when they see their rivals in France, teams they'll come up against in the HEC, spending millions more than them.

                The approach in American sports like the NHL and NFL is much smarter. Through salary caps, managed distribution of revenues and the allocation of draft picks, they ensure that nobody gets too great an advantage and therefore nobody can become too dominant on the field and all can thrive. It's a sustainable and profitable business model (unlike soccer, where players and agents make a fortune and everybody else loses their shirt).

                We can't operate in quite the same way but if all of rugby's stakeholders were smart about it they'd be looking for ways to come up with something similar. Compete on the pitch, collaborate off it. Other forms of sport and entertainment are our real commercial competition for TV money, sponsorhship and bums on seats. Clubs and unions competing with one another commercially just results in cannibalisation and ultimately weakens the sport and its consituents.
                Do you think all the big English clubs, like purely for example Saracens are obeying the salary cap? Not a chance and either way a salary cap will not be implemented in France so it makes no difference what other leagues do. I also wonder about the legality of salary caps under EU law
                My computer thinks I'm gay
                What's the difference anyway
                When all the people do all day
                Is stare into a phone

                Comment


                  Originally posted by sewa View Post
                  Do you think all the big English clubs, like purely for example Saracens are obeying the salary cap? Not a chance and either way a salary cap will not be implemented in France so it makes no difference what other leagues do. I also wonder about the legality of salary caps under EU law
                  As I said, there are abuses but many clubs are obeying the cap and even those who are not cannot be too blatant about it, which limits their excesses.

                  There is a salary cap in place in France already: http://www.espn.co.uk/france-top-14-...ry/180729.html


                  Since there is a salary cap in operation in two EU countries already, my guess is legality is not an issue.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by sewa View Post
                    Do you think all the big English clubs, like purely for example Saracens are obeying the salary cap? Not a chance and either way a salary cap will not be implemented in France so it makes no difference what other leagues do. I also wonder about the legality of salary caps under EU law
                    It's been up for discussion, of late, and the feeling is that if it's done right, it's likely okay. The Commission is, as it happens, aware of the issues in financing toeball in particular, and dislikes it, judging by the reports: the Parliament hate it, going on the (excellent) report for which Seán Kelly was rapporteur. The Commission is already stepping in over municipal support for toeball teams, such as FC Koln getting a cheapy stadium and municipal support, and I'd say the likes of Toulon would be firmly in the sights on that, too.
                    Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by HenryFitz View Post
                      **MOD EDIT** Nigel Wray? **MOD EDIT**.

                      I can't believe we're still hearing about commercial acumen from a man who's spent millions over 15 years turning Saracens from a club with 5,000 supporters into a club with about 10,000 supporters, still well below the numbers needed for solvency. Exeter managed the same trick in about five years for a fraction of the cost. I'd very much like to hear their chairman's opinions on all this, but I wouldn't trust Wray to run a brothel on an oil-rig.
                      Unfortunately this is what Rowe, the Exeter Chairman, had to say-

                      The RFU have got to get off the fence and support their clubs,” Rowe said. “At the end of the day, we are the crown jewels in English rugby and all we are looking for is a proper meaningful European Cup run in professional lines with equal funding for all participants. "If the RFU and the FFR decide not to support us then there will be no European club rugby. Some of the best rugby played is in the European Cup competition. There is no way back.
                      Is he fecking high? His side nearly mugged a half-fit Leinster side at the RDS but were blown away in the return fixture and were humiliated in France. I like Exeter as a club, quite similar to the province's IMO, but thats just peurile nonsense coming from Rowe. For a club that had to fight so long and hard to, firstly get into the Premiership and then get the same funding (it took two seasons) that he'd maybe have a bit of common sense about just how the PRL do business but it seems he's in bed with them now so stuff the rest.

                      Exeter also have quite a good rugby tradition, something Sarries and the area they were located in never really enjoyed. Saracens was always a tough gig to get support to once they moved away from their actual roots around the advent of professionalism.

                      Kearney would need to take a look at himself the little gob****e, at a time like this he ought to be rowing in behind the Union not trying to undermine their case. I am not a fan of the IRFU by any stretch but in times like these one must nail their colours to the mast. The amusing thing is, after his Lions 'trauma' (pass me the sick bucket) he might need to get used to not being the golden boy, I'd have Zebo ahead of him in a heartbeat in a back three alongside Bowe and Earls.
                      Last edited by SecondRowGal; 13th-September-2013, 11:00. Reason: Edit of quoted post

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by DONC View Post
                        This is so short sighted it is scary, instead of these so called business men sitting down and looking at how can we expand our market and increase the value of our product they are looking to contract and increase the value of the product, this works for stuff people need like oil wont work for sport. In fact it is so bloody stupid we should keep well away from it. Nail our flag to the mast that is Sky and improve the product that is Pro12, maybe even add a second division trying to pull in teams from Spain, Germany, Holland, Belgium. There are plenty of Irish, Welsh, Scottish & Italian people in England for Sky to make a success of the Pro12

                        That would be my preferred choice of action. Try make a new real European competition work that is only based on regions and not clubs. Have a second Pro 12 division and maybe even an eastern conference involving teams from Russia, Georgia, Romania, Poland etc.


                        This wouldn't be easy to do and would take money and investment but I'm sure countries like Germany, Belgium, Spain, Portugal and Holland would be able to raise enough cash for a team in each country. The RFU and FFR would well be able to afford setting up a few regional sides. You'd have to wait a long time for a return on the investment but in the long term it would be successful and allow Celtic teams to break off contact with the clubs.


                        Its not really about money at the end of the day. As long as you have quality, competitive rugby the fans will be happy. The hurling this year has been the best in a few decades because you had so many teams capable of winning the All Ireland. It was becoming very boring with Kilkenny (because the others were not good enough) dominating for 10 years. The English and French clubs want to weaken the Celts/Italians and strengthen themselves so it'll be like soccer where out of the tens of thousands of clubs in Europe, only a handful of clubs are capable of winning the champions league.


                        As for Rob Kearney's comments, it revealed a lot about his character ie give in straight away and settle for second best. Not the sort of thing you'd like to hear from an Irish international.

                        Comment


                          In terms of the argument that each union should be guaranteed entry the irfu would be crazy to agree to that if we are stuck with top 6 qualification to the Heineken. By all means fight hard for your partners but if it comes down to 6 places only then top 6 it has to be.

                          Comment


                            The French salary cap is 10 million, more than twice that of the Premiership. Some top clubs spending 20 to 30 million a year, are we supposed to believe the majority is on something other than wages?
                            My computer thinks I'm gay
                            What's the difference anyway
                            When all the people do all day
                            Is stare into a phone

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by exiled to connacht View Post
                              In terms of the argument that each union should be guaranteed entry the irfu would be crazy to agree to that if we are stuck with top 6 qualification to the Heineken. By all means fight hard for your partners but if it comes down to 6 places only then top 6 it has to be.
                              Reducing it to 20 teams won't actually shorten the competition anyway. We'd either get 5 groups of 4 (same length as at present) or 4 groups of 5 (longer than at present). If they really want to shorten it, keep it 24 teams with 8 groups of 3. Two weekends freed up and no runner-up qualification issues either.

                              If going to 20 teams is designed to improve the quality it has to be balanced with maintaining the European nature of the tournament. To me that means we need at least one team from every country. On that basis I would be happy enough with a 7, 6, 5 split. Scotland, Italy, Ireland, Wales all guaranteed one place each, remaining 3 Rabo spots on merit. France and England to alternate between 5 and 6 each every year.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by dropkick View Post
                                That would be my preferred choice of action. Try make a new real European competition work that is only based on regions and not clubs. Have a second Pro 12 division and maybe even an eastern conference involving teams from Russia, Georgia, Romania, Poland etc.


                                This wouldn't be easy to do and would take money and investment but I'm sure countries like Germany, Belgium, Spain, Portugal and Holland would be able to raise enough cash for a team in each country. The RFU and FFR would well be able to afford setting up a few regional sides. You'd have to wait a long time for a return on the investment but in the long term it would be successful and allow Celtic teams to break off contact with the clubs.


                                Its not really about money at the end of the day. As long as you have quality, competitive rugby the fans will be happy. The hurling this year has been the best in a few decades because you had so many teams capable of winning the All Ireland. It was becoming very boring with Kilkenny (because the others were not good enough) dominating for 10 years. The English and French clubs want to weaken the Celts/Italians and strengthen themselves so it'll be like soccer where out of the tens of thousands of clubs in Europe, only a handful of clubs are capable of winning the champions league.


                                As for Rob Kearney's comments, it revealed a lot about his character ie give in straight away and settle for second best. Not the sort of thing you'd like to hear from an Irish international.
                                Crowds were not exactly flocking to the Heineken Cup / European Cup for the first few years neither.

                                I think they would miss the Irish more than a bit as well, when it comes to sport in general we do like our travels. By and large we would have contributed to the glamour of the cup more so over the years than any other country. Indeed it has often been said the Irish made the European Cup and I think with some justification.

                                No bugger them if they want to cut loose fine, but the Pro12 has to stand firm any other course on our part is only delaying the inevitable I think.
                                I am one of the 5 clowns woo hoo

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