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The Future of the Heineken Cup In Doubt?

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    #31
    Originally posted by scotscor View Post
    It makes no sense for the celtic nations to sign up to the deal as it stands, whther tis death now if the english pull out or death in two seasons when the Scots and Italians collapse and the Irish and Welsh have no league is just timing, Currently the celts have something like 60 -66% of the pot. The english I understand are looking to change that to some where between 33% - 50%.
    With that sort of pot the Italians and scots are doomed.

    The fairest for me is 7 ap, 7 french, 1 scot, 1 italian, 1 welsh, 1 Irish and four more rabo places based on merit.
    And then the winner of the HEC and winner of the Amlin.


    Alternatively, the celts could offer 8 Rabo, 8 French and 6 english. Get the French on board and if the english want a little holiday for themselves let them off.
    As I understand it, the AP teams pool all the prize money received from ERC competitions amongst all 12 AP teams (I don't know if the French do this) A reduction in the size of the HEC doesn't give the English more money, unless they think it will give the AP teams a better chance of winning HEC prize money.

    A reduction of the size of the HEC would increase the overall quality... but it certainly isn't a given that the English clubs would do well out of this. The big Irish and French teams may dominate even more.

    AFAIK the ERC money is split 85% for participation and 15% for prize money.

    The participation money is split something like:
    English: 24%
    French: 24%
    Welsh, Irish, Scottish: 13.25%
    Italy: 12.25%

    You could make a case that Scotland gets too much given they only have 2 teams, but I don't see why there is a case to change these allocations by more than a per cent or so.

    The 15% prize money is split with 1% each going to the HEC QF, SF and finalists (14% in total), 0.75% to ACC winner and 0.25% to ACC losing finalists.

    The ACC money is totally peanuts in comparison to the HEC so again, there could be a case to increase its importance.

    The English and French clubs may make noises that they could increase the size of the overall pot for everyone, with the AP teams waving their BT deal, but as mentioned previously, I think they are only doing this to extricate themselves from embarassment in their dealings with BT, and I don't see why the ERC should bail them out if the AP teams have fecked up.

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      #32
      Originally posted by exiled to connacht View Post
      I think many of you are missing the point of any negotiation which is compromise. This is a well thought out strategy imo this time. We have 10 places and they offer 6 with each union guarenteed 1. They have left the middle ground compromise position of 8 in return for concessions in relation to seedings and probably tv rights. The reason for 20 teams is hec money divided by 20 goes further than by 24. This is important to the clubs. The other thing required by english is reform of amlin. They want that to be a stronger comp. If the hec goes to a 20 team format on a split of 6/6/8 then the amlin will be 20 on a split of 8/6/4 + 2 qualifiers from italy/ georgia/ romania etc. Thats the bones of their view of europe going forward.
      Do not underestimate the belligerent, arrogant stupidity of McCafferty and Wray. They truly believe reality is as they wish it to be. Negotiating with people like that can be impossible, because they don't even see the weaknesses in their own case that means they should do a deal.
      Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
        24. Seven T14, 7 AP (don't deserve it), 7 Rabo (min 1/country), winner, winner Amlin, and a round-robin play-off between the next up in each league for the last slot while the respective playoffs are on.
        Something like that would be a lot fairer imo.

        I know I'm against all popular opinion on this here but while I don't agree with reducing it from 24 to 20 teams I def think the English and French have a valid point. T78 says the AP don't deserve 7 teams but can anyone honestly say that the likes of Zebre deserve to be in it either? There has to be a better, fairer structure for how the Rabo teams qualify. It would also increase the progression of the likes of Zebre as they would only have to try and better their compatriots. It would give them a more realistic goal to target. It would make the Scot teams very competitive with each other aswell. Also if Leinster don't win the Amlin, Connacht won't be in the HC next season but Zebre will even though they will have finished 3/4 places lower than them in the league!!!

        I don't care what anyone says but that is just wrong and I can fully understand the English and French's problem with it. I don't know the exact answer and I don't agree with the proposals put forward by the English and French in their current form but I definitely agree that the qualifying structure for the Rabo has to be changed.

        Comment


          #34
          Reduction of the HEC to 20 teams could be a case of "be careful of what you wish for...", from an English perspective at least.

          The English teams rely on the "bunnies" in the HEC groups to pick up points as much as everyone else, and if some of the weaker Celtalian teams aren't there, you can see the big French teams who give a toss about the HEC, and the big Irish provinces dominating with the English teams scrabbling around for the second placed qualification positions.

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by mikerob View Post
            Reduction of the HEC to 20 teams could be a case of "be careful of what you wish for...", from an English perspective at least.

            The English teams rely on the "bunnies" in the HEC groups to pick up points as much as everyone else, and if some of the weaker Celtalian teams aren't there, you can see the big French teams who give a toss about the HEC, and the big Irish provinces dominating with the English teams scrabbling around for the second placed qualification positions.
            Is that why they want to raise the profile of the Amlin?!?!

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by BOK View Post
              Something like that would be a lot fairer imo.

              I know I'm against all popular opinion on this here but while I don't agree with reducing it from 24 to 20 teams I def think the English and French have a valid point. T78 says the AP don't deserve 7 teams but can anyone honestly say that the likes of Zebre deserve to be in it either? There has to be a better, fairer structure for how the Rabo teams qualify. It would also increase the progression of the likes of Zebre as they would only have to try and better their compatriots. It would give them a more realistic goal to target. It would make the Scot teams very competitive with each other aswell. Also if Leinster don't win the Amlin, Connacht won't be in the HC next season but Zebre will even though they will have finished 3/4 places lower than them in the league!!!

              I don't care what anyone says but that is just wrong and I can fully understand the English and French's problem with it. I don't know the exact answer and I don't agree with the proposals put forward by the English and French in their current form but I definitely agree that the qualifying structure for the Rabo has to be changed.
              The reason I'd have a round-robin play-off for the last slot is that it settles arguments about quality. Who's best? Right. Connacht v. Wasps v. Grenoble. Fair, no questions who deserves it after that, means all teams even at the bottom have something to play for, and a few full stadia in May to help out the minnows. Result all round.
              Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
                Is that why they want to raise the profile of the Amlin?!?!
                Dunno... but there is a valid discussion about the relative prize money there should be for both competitions... is 93% : 7% right or should the Amlin get a bit more?

                I think it is correct that there should be a clearly defined premier competition, but if it goes too far, then absolutely nobody will give a toss about the secondary competition, and it becomes impossible to get any sort of sponsorship for it.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
                  The reason I'd have a round-robin play-off for the last slot is that it settles arguments about quality. Who's best? Right. Connacht v. Wasps v. Grenoble. Fair, no questions who deserves it after that, means all teams even at the bottom have something to play for, and a few full stadia in May to help out the minnows. Result all round.
                  That is the thinking behind my proposal + it would keep the leagues more interesting at the end of the season. Don't think the English would go for it though because their 7th and 8th teams are, quite frankly, sh*te and such an arrangement would expose that to a very harsh light.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
                    That is the thinking behind my proposal + it would keep the leagues more interesting at the end of the season. Don't think the English would go for it though because their 7th and 8th teams are, quite frankly, sh*te and such an arrangement would expose that to a very harsh light.
                    Then let's hear them deny it. And then let's hear them answer why they suddenly don't want the best-v.-best principle they claimed to be so in favour of. Flush it out into the open.
                    Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      The problem is where to fit in the extra matches. Connacht, for instance would have four matches in the six weeks after the Rabo regular season. Would any internationals that they have be allowed play games or would they have to tour?

                      Comment


                        #41
                        There is of course the massive elephant in the room in that the English or English & French can do nothing without IRB approval. They cannot start their own competition, they cannot do anything that PRL and/or BT vision bluster about so its the HEC or nothing for everyone on the table.

                        To be honest I would rather the English stay in spite of their wankerish posturing on this issue; the travel, the teams, the supporters etc is what makes the ERC the competition it is. Without one country is loses a little, not all mind, of its appeal. It would also have a dramatic impact on the national side as whilst the AP is probably marginally stronger than the Rabo both are miles behind the HEC and even latter stage ACC.

                        There is a deal to be worked out IMO, that is for sure. There has to be some give and take-Rabo should fight to keep their quota/maybe give up one space but, as has been said by others, use this as an opportunity to improve the league as well. One guaranteed qualifier from each nation and then a meritocracy for the rest of the positions.

                        My main concern is that the English have backed themselves into a corner here and they do not like to lose face...I could also see a bit of a war between the RFU and PRL if PRL fupp this all up.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by Red Hand Hero View Post
                          There is of course the massive elephant in the room in that the English or English & French can do nothing without IRB approval. They cannot start their own competition, they cannot do anything that PRL and/or BT vision bluster about so its the HEC or nothing for everyone on the table.

                          To be honest I would rather the English stay in spite of their wankerish posturing on this issue; the travel, the teams, the supporters etc is what makes the ERC the competition it is. Without one country is loses a little, not all mind, of its appeal. It would also have a dramatic impact on the national side as whilst the AP is probably marginally stronger than the Rabo both are miles behind the HEC and even latter stage ACC.

                          There is a deal to be worked out IMO, that is for sure. There has to be some give and take-Rabo should fight to keep their quota/maybe give up one space but, as has been said by others, use this as an opportunity to improve the league as well. One guaranteed qualifier from each nation and then a meritocracy for the rest of the positions.

                          My main concern is that the English have backed themselves into a corner here and they do not like to lose face...I could also see a bit of a war between the RFU and PRL if PRL fupp this all up.
                          Agree with a lot of that RHH, add in the RFU and plenty of the PRL are also chuntering away about salary caps.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by Piquet View Post
                            The problem is where to fit in the extra matches. Connacht, for instance would have four matches in the six weeks after the Rabo regular season. Would any internationals that they have be allowed play games or would they have to tour?
                            Run them at the same time as the regular play-offs. The league season ends this weekend, so there's plenty of time for the other games to be played before the full season ends at the end of May.
                            Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
                              Run them at the same time as the regular play-offs. The league season ends this weekend, so there's plenty of time for the other games to be played before the full season ends at the end of May.
                              There isn't, T78. Taking your example:
                              11th May Connacht v Grenoble
                              18th May Grenoble v Wasps
                              25th May Wasps v Connacht
                              1st June Grenoble v Connacht
                              8th June Wasps v Grenoble
                              15th June Connacht v Wasps.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                My proposal involves two games, surely that could be made to fit into the rabo/AP and T14 play off schedules?

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