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The Future of the Heineken Cup In Doubt?

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    Wray is a boll---k, he goes all over the place for home games. Making it harder of sarries fans who have to pay more $ for games .wasn't he trying to play a home game in south Africa or USA against Munster. It's all about money $ with this pr--k and that loud speaker was bullsh-t disgraceful act before the game even Finnish
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      Originally posted by limerickdeco View Post
      Wray is a boll---k, he goes all over the place for home games. Making it harder of sarries fans who have to pay more $ for games .wasn't he trying to play a home game in south Africa or USA against Munster. It's all about money $ with this pr--k and that loud speaker was bullsh-t disgraceful act before the game even Finnish
      Not denying he's a tool, or that money is a part of it. But I think it's important to understand the motivations of the English clubs because otherwise there's no way to reach an agreement. Money is a factor, control of the tournament is a factor, viewing it as a 'champions' league' rather than a 'European league' (hence the resentment over inclusion of the Italian/Scottish sides) is a factor, but I think another aspect that's been forgotten is that on some level a lot of these guys are basically rich fans who are annoyed because they feel their club isn't getting a fair deal. If we blame everything on them being after the money and so forth, painting them as cartoon villains, then I guarantee you no agreement will be reached and the party will be over.

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        and heres another papers perspective on this meeting!
        http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/domes...-heineken-cup/
        Last edited by exiled to connacht; 21st-May-2013, 18:04.

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          Originally posted by exiled to connacht View Post
          and heres another papers perspective on this meeting!
          http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/domes...-heineken-cup/
          FFR president Pierre Camou summoned senior representatives of the six competing nations amid signs that the French clubs, far from quitting, are willing to get back to the negotiating table.

          Camou, a retired 68-year-old banker, is understood to have backed up his call for the French clubs to get back in line by warning that they will be replaced in Europe if necessary by makeshift French teams chosen on a regional basis.

          Very different spin there to the on peddled by (or to) The Guardian.
          Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2020.

          Comment


            Originally posted by budgetwinger View Post
            While I love the HC and am strongly opposed to all the monkeying around by the french and english clubs I think that's an overly simplistic view.

            The reason the club owners are so important in England is that the RFU was so terrible at preparing for the advent of professionalism. When it came, it was basically the owners who stepped in a kept the top level game viable by paying players. A lot of the owners have invested huge amounts of their own money in their clubs for little or no reward. A few years ago Brian Moore estimated that Wray had put about £10 million into Saracens, which is quite a significant portion of his personal wealth.

            I don't have any great affection for the guy. The RFU/owners power struggle has been embarrassing for English rugby at times, and I hope to all goodness that he doesn't succeed in destroying the HC. But I don't think it's fair to say he has no love of the game. If he had no love for the game, or Saracens, he wouldn't be there any more. He's frustrated because he feels (wrongly in my opinion) that the differences in the league structures don't give the team to which he's given his time, effort and money a fair crack of the whip, and he wants to replace it with a different format. That's his opinion, just like it's ours that ultimately his actions will be detrimental to the European game - but I think he's persevering because he doesn't agree with our view, not because he agrees and doesn't care.

            Investment in a rugby club over the last twenty years has been like owning a pub - it's a labour of love, not a way to get rich.

            All very fair points. There is no doubting the altruistic nature of people like Brownsword who was at Bath or Bristol's current owner Lansdown - and a few others as well

            However I can't believe Wray has anything but £££ in his eyes. Aside from pushing the envelope with the BT deal, the tie up with the Welsh regions at a time when they are struggling is pure exploitation in my eyes.

            It's entirely possible I am talking out of my bottom - that wouldn't be a first - but I have no faith in people like him to push any agenda except their own personal wealth creating one.


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              Originally posted by rathbaner View Post
              FFR president Pierre Camou summoned senior representatives of the six competing nations amid signs that the French clubs, far from quitting, are willing to get back to the negotiating table.

              Camou, a retired 68-year-old banker, is understood to have backed up his call for the French clubs to get back in line by warning that they will be replaced in Europe if necessary by makeshift French teams chosen on a regional basis.

              Very different spin there to the on peddled by (or to) The Guardian.
              The Grauniad is PRL's preferred spin-route.

              The FFR one is interesting. The French clubs in the LNR are, apparently, far from monolithic, with an elite v. rest split. If they come on board with the HEC, it'll get not just interesting, but fascinating.
              Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

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                Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
                The Grauniad is PRL's preferred spin-route.

                The FFR one is interesting. The French clubs in the LNR are, apparently, far from monolithic, with an elite v. rest split. If they come on board with the HEC, it'll get not just interesting, but fascinating.
                Now that would be interesting. The H-Cup as a quasi State of Origin competition? I could get down with that.
                To The Brave and the Faithful, Nothing is Unpublishable.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
                  The Grauniad is PRL's preferred spin-route.

                  The FFR one is interesting. The French clubs in the LNR are, apparently, far from monolithic, with an elite v. rest split. If they come on board with the HEC, it'll get not just interesting, but fascinating.
                  Also very interesting for the head of the LNR to say "The most important thing is that we need to have a real European Cup. I am not sure that four teams less is such a big deal."

                  Hopefully the format stays the same.
                  Superintendent Chalmers: “Thank the Lord”? That sounded like a prayer. A prayer in a public school. God has no place within these walls, just like facts don’t have a place within an organized religion

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by joeriddick View Post
                    Now that would be interesting. The H-Cup as a quasi State of Origin competition? I could get down with that.
                    It would be a great end of season tournament for U23 players. Have a interprovincial 'province of birth' competition for under 23 players.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
                      I am starting to think the real problem is that PR have absolutely committed themselves to delivering the only European competition to BT. And if they don't, then their deal with BT goes south. Hence, they have to either deliver it to BT as they want, or else crash any alternative into the wall to get out of their predicament of having sold something which didn't exist and to which they could not commit anyone else (that Peter Wheeler was, at the same time, signing off as director of PR on the BT deal shafting ERC while also being a director of ERC is one that I would just love to hear him explain away in terms of directors' duties, btw).

                      Speculation, I grant , but they may have painted themselves into a corner and taking it down is their out if they can't deliver it to BT.
                      Brace yourself for this... I think you're right!!!!:_jawdrop__rvmp_by_b It makes sense. Much as we all crib (and don't we just!) about the unions, I've come to the conclusion that a rugby-world run by the clubs will become just a collection of large black holes sucking in any resources that are available as if its their right to cannibalise everything else for their greater glory. There'll be no settling with them- they'll always come back for more. If they cannot dominate the HC as is- they'll look to change the rules or the competition to ensure they can.

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                        Let the Brits feck off for a year. The competition survived before when this happened and it will again.

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                          The Brits or just the English?
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                            Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post
                            The Brits or just the English?
                            Just schalk brits, he's got an annoying habit of popping up in loose play and scoring tries.
                            The system is dead! Long live the process!

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post
                              The Brits or just the English?
                              If you talk to a Scot they are one and the same.

                              Comment


                                "Heineken Cup future is in the balance, says Peter Wheeler
                                Wednesday, June 19, 2013 The end of the Heineken Cup is a distinct probability, according to Leicester Tigers executive director Peter Wheeler.
                                English and French clubs have given their notice to leave the competition at the end of the 2013-14 season.
                                That is when the current agreement between the northern hemisphere countries runs out.
                                They are at their wits end over what they see as the inequalities within the competition's structure with regards to both methods of qualification and distribution of revenue.
                                Wheeler, Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty and representatives of the French Top 14 have been meeting their Celtic counterparts over the last 12 months to try and reach a compromise – but they have failed to make any progress whatsoever.
                                Now, with a £152million BT television deal in place to cover the Premiership as well as 'English club games in Europe', English clubs have some serious finances behind them to pursue alternatives.
                                This could include an Anglo-French tournament, an extended Aviva Premiership or even games against South African provinces.
                                I understand that Premiership clubs will start making genuine moves towards securing those alternative arrangements as early as the end of this month if Heineken Cup organisers European Rugby Cup (ERC) do not start offering concessions.
                                Wheeler, who is one of Premiership Rugby's representatives on the ERC negotiating panel, said there was "resolute resolve" among the English clubs to see the fight through to the bitter end.
                                "One side has to give ground and change their current position," said Wheeler. "If that doesn't happen, any competitions for the following season will be very different to what they are now."
                                "The resolve of the chairmen of English clubs is resolute in saying that the current structure is wrong.
                                "The fact that some (Celtic) clubs get automatic qualification is not right. And the English and French clubs each get only 24 per cent of the income, with the Pro12 clubs taking the rest.
                                "At the moment, the English clubs will not be in any ERC-led competition if one continues.
                                "And French clubs tell us that they would not enter a competition without English clubs."
                                "
                                //www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Heineken-Cup-future-balance-says-Peter-Wheeler/story-19327563-detail/story.html#axzz2WgmAOP9B Nothing really new ...
                                Last edited by anno12; 19th-June-2013, 19:46. Reason: add text

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