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The Future of the Heineken Cup In Doubt?

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    Originally posted by Point View Post
    It's a pity the RFU don't cut the clubs loose and start again with County sides as their pro teams.
    I think the current system is more profitable for the RFU. And they are the same type of people.Remember they wanted to make a World Cup with différents levels.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Point View Post
      It's a pity the RFU don't cut the clubs loose and start again with County sides as their pro teams.
      If they did and went regional on top I don't think anyone else in the world would stand a chance including NZ.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Point View Post
        It's a pity the RFU don't cut the clubs loose and start again with County sides as their pro teams.
        The county sides aren't a viable base for a pro game. They're schoolboy structures, and have been for a long time. English rugby people beyond school age have always been primarily attached to their club.
        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

        Comment


          I thought Point was joking. Ye seem to be taking him seriously. Point?

          Comment


            Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
            The county sides aren't a viable base for a pro game. They're schoolboy structures, and have been for a long time. English rugby people beyond school age have always been primarily attached to their club.
            They might have been if they had gone in that direction, but they didn't so it is completely hypothetical.

            Comment


              Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
              They might have been if they had gone in that direction, but they didn't so it is completely hypothetical.
              I don't think they would. People played for their club every week, and county/region call ups were a nice to have as recognition of club performances.

              The courage league sides were the obvious starting point for the pro game in England.
              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

              Comment


                Yet more detritus.

                Linkage

                No Heineken Cup for French clubs even if they are barred from new event

                • Ligue Nationale clubs may be blocked by French federation
                • Sky deal signed after French and English clubs gave notice



                The leading French clubs will not play in the Heineken Cup next season even if they are prevented from taking part in the new cross-border tournament they are setting up with Premiership Rugby.
                The French Rugby Federation issued a statement hours after the French and English clubs – who gave notice in June last year that they were withdrawing at the end of the season from the two competitions run by European Rugby Cup Ltd – announced they were setting up the Rugby Champions Cup and would be inviting sides from the three Celtic countries and Italy to join, saying it would not give permission for the Top 14 sides to play in a new cross-border tournament.
                It told them to take part in the mediation process ERC has started in an attempt to resolve a dispute which has centred essentially on control. The clubs feel they should run tournaments they are involved in, something the Celtic unions and Italy, who hold the balance of power on ERC, vehemently disagree with.
                "The RFU has a similar position regarding Premiership Rugby that the FFR does with its clubs," said the chairman of ERC, Jean-Pierre Lux, at the launch of this season's Heineken Cup in Paris on Monday, pointing out that clubs were not allowed to take part in cross-border tournaments without the consent of their unions.
                "The recent media release from the Ligue Nationale de Rugby and Premiership Rugby lacked respect," Lux continued. "The impasse is essentially because Premiership Rugby want to renege on a binding commercial deal in favour of their questionable TV contract with BT. I sincerely hope that people reflect on their current problems and I hope we will be able to reach an agreement when we have another opportunity to engage on 23 and 24 October with the mediator Graeme Mew."
                The French clubs are adamant they will not be involved with ERC next season even if they are prevented from playing in the Rugby Champions Cup. The stance of Premiership Rugby, which contrary to Lux's claim has not been told by the RFU that it has agreed to back the FFR and black the new tournament, is the same and it has pointed out that the binding commercial deal referred to by Lux, the extended television contract deal with Sky, was signed after the English and French clubs had given their notice to pull out and was therefore not binding on them.
                "If the International Rugby Board or the unions try to stop the Rugby Champions Cup, two things will happen," said the Saracens chief executive, Edward Griffiths in Abu Dhabi on Monday. "First, it is almost inconceivable that a governing body of a sport would prevent a competition taking place which brings £60-70m into the game. Second, if they did try to stop that, there would be no European rugby.
                "The English and French clubs have been very clear they are not going to go back to an ERC tournament: no European rugby at all would obviously not suit anybody. If you look at the history of professional rugby, it has always been about this balance between union control and the clubs. That has been a fraught balance at times.
                "The BT Sport television deal has given the English clubs more of a chance to redress that imbalance. The unions should run the national team and some of the grassroots and the clubs should run the club game. That is what happens in most mature professional sports. I think it is just a matter of time before that happens in rugby."
                The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves

                Comment


                  Originally posted by The Word Is Born View Post
                  Yet more detritus.

                  Linkage

                  No Heineken Cup for French clubs even if they are barred from new event

                  • Ligue Nationale clubs may be blocked by French federation
                  • Sky deal signed after French and English clubs gave notice



                  The leading French clubs will not play in the Heineken Cup next season even if they are prevented from taking part in the new cross-border tournament they are setting up with Premiership Rugby.
                  The French Rugby Federation issued a statement hours after the French and English clubs – who gave notice in June last year that they were withdrawing at the end of the season from the two competitions run by European Rugby Cup Ltd – announced they were setting up the Rugby Champions Cup and would be inviting sides from the three Celtic countries and Italy to join, saying it would not give permission for the Top 14 sides to play in a new cross-border tournament.
                  It told them to take part in the mediation process ERC has started in an attempt to resolve a dispute which has centred essentially on control. The clubs feel they should run tournaments they are involved in, something the Celtic unions and Italy, who hold the balance of power on ERC, vehemently disagree with.
                  "The RFU has a similar position regarding Premiership Rugby that the FFR does with its clubs," said the chairman of ERC, Jean-Pierre Lux, at the launch of this season's Heineken Cup in Paris on Monday, pointing out that clubs were not allowed to take part in cross-border tournaments without the consent of their unions.
                  "The recent media release from the Ligue Nationale de Rugby and Premiership Rugby lacked respect," Lux continued. "The impasse is essentially because Premiership Rugby want to renege on a binding commercial deal in favour of their questionable TV contract with BT. I sincerely hope that people reflect on their current problems and I hope we will be able to reach an agreement when we have another opportunity to engage on 23 and 24 October with the mediator Graeme Mew."
                  The French clubs are adamant they will not be involved with ERC next season even if they are prevented from playing in the Rugby Champions Cup. The stance of Premiership Rugby, which contrary to Lux's claim has not been told by the RFU that it has agreed to back the FFR and black the new tournament, is the same and it has pointed out that the binding commercial deal referred to by Lux, the extended television contract deal with Sky, was signed after the English and French clubs had given their notice to pull out and was therefore not binding on them.
                  "If the International Rugby Board or the unions try to stop the Rugby Champions Cup, two things will happen," said the Saracens chief executive, Edward Griffiths in Abu Dhabi on Monday. "First, it is almost inconceivable that a governing body of a sport would prevent a competition taking place which brings £60-70m into the game. Second, if they did try to stop that, there would be no European rugby.
                  "The English and French clubs have been very clear they are not going to go back to an ERC tournament: no European rugby at all would obviously not suit anybody. If you look at the history of professional rugby, it has always been about this balance between union control and the clubs. That has been a fraught balance at times.
                  "The BT Sport television deal has given the English clubs more of a chance to redress that imbalance. The unions should run the national team and some of the grassroots and the clubs should run the club game. That is what happens in most mature professional sports. I think it is just a matter of time before that happens in rugby."
                  A lot of that is based off one statement by the French prior to the FFR's statement yesterday.

                  All it is, is just more spin and bluster.
                  To The Brave And The Faithful, Nothing Is Unpublishable.

                  Comment


                    Trust the pr*ck Griffiths to up the ante to open season, club versus country warfare. Gwan Bill Beaumont, gwan!!!!

                    Comment


                      In fact, the only Frenchman quoted in it is Lux.
                      Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

                      Comment


                        How many more twists is this going to take? There's no point in the meeting next month, if this is the case.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
                          Trust the pr*ck Griffiths to up the ante to open season, club versus country warfare. Gwan Bill Beaumont, gwan!!!!
                          Oh, it's naked.

                          And in a world where the Pro12 and S15 are run by unions, it's demonstrably wrong.

                          Of the votes on the IRB Council, I make that 14 (2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 2 Scots, 2 Kiwis, 2 Aus, 2 SA, Arg, Italy) with a direct stake in keeping union control. Oh, and the 2 FFR who just slapped down the LNR. And Lapasset. Instant majority. Sarries aren't very good with numbers, are they?
                          Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
                            Oh, it's naked.

                            And in a world where the Pro12 and S15 are run by unions, it's demonstrably wrong.

                            Of the votes on the IRB Council, I make that 14 (2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 2 Scots, 2 Kiwis, 2 Aus, 2 SA, Arg, Italy) with a direct stake in keeping union control. Oh, and the 2 FFR who just slapped down the LNR. And Lapasset. Instant majority. Sarries aren't very good with numbers, are they?
                            Don't think Wray and Griffiths will be able to buy all the delegates farms/ vineyards in the cape to bypass the rules. Still think Wheeler etc is giving the Saffacens enough rope to hang themselves.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
                              Don't think Wray and Griffiths will be able to buy all the delegates farms/ vineyards in the cape to bypass the rules. Still think Wheeler etc is giving the Saffacens enough rope to hang themselves.
                              Johan Rupert ain't letting them upset the Bokke. The instant Sarries cross the interests of Stellenbosch rugby, they're gone. :D
                              Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

                              Comment


                                A few of things still I wonder about:

                                - Heineken can't be greatly amused about the whole business. Their sponsorship of the tournament is a massive branding success - a genuine win-win, or so it seems to me. Will their patience last until the end of the wrangling process? They must have a get-out-of-Dodge clause in the invent of an implosion like what's happening now? Whatever tournament is salvaged from this mess, it would be lesser without the Heineken name in the short term.

                                - I'm certain that Sky have all sort of protections built in to their ERC agreement, especially in the event of the English decamping - they do have form in this regard after all. What happens to the Sky deal in the event of the English walking away? Do they go after the RFU or the ERC? Can Sky demand performance of the contract?

                                - BT must have even more protections - they weren't born yesterday.

                                There are serious media/communications companies playing here. They won't get damaged, so somebody involved in the rugby will. That's not good for the game. Even if PR are forced to come back into the tent, damage has been done and it will surely be only a matter of time before the English clubs find a way to break free of their union for once and for all.
                                "I don't believe in fairytales," O'Connell once told me, "even though it feels like I've been lucky enough to live through a few. However it ends, I'll feel lucky."
                                Donald McRae, Guardian Rugby, October 2015

                                Comment

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