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    Originally posted by rathbaner View Post
    The French seem to think there's a conspiracy to mollycoddle Pro12 teams and the ERC based in Dubin is part and parcel of it. It comes up in the French press every time there's a citing of a french based player
    No conspiracy.
    Do'nt forget that the french system is different than the anglo-saxon one, where Federations are managing their clubs but are also bringing money at home...

    So there is a tough battle between the FFR (you know, the historical shadowmen and ex-players, also called the "old dusty overcoats") who lives and depends for the most of the money of the clubs, but got the executive power (even to spoil LNR ballot paper on the ERC election) and which is close to the celts and to old amateur world and their special privilege of "rugby values" or "highest interests of rugby"...

    And on the other side, the LNR that brings ALL the money on the table, divided between a minority of pro-FFR (Serge and Clermont representatives essentially) and a fragile majority of modern CEO (Django Boudjellal and Calamity Jacky for example) and businessmen that would like to be unchained of the FFR's slavery and would like little more money in rugby (but not as much as football, just x2 ou x3) and less amateur rules and management.

    I understood the english battle between clubs and RFU are quite the same than the french, but final interests are a bit different, I think ?

    The celts problem is they'd like to survive in a Grand Circus, but the actual system made it impossible without special privileges that are unfair for english and french.

    I think the present problem, even for the Celts, is the ERC/IRB old Cartel and godfathers who still want to live on their thrones with 19th century rules.
    But that the french and english clubs should be released of the cowshed to the corral. With fences. But no ropes anymore.
    Last edited by Hellboy; 21st-May-2013, 07:36.

    Comment


      Would it really be the top six in Rabo or would there be some national allocation (e.g. top team from each of the 4 nations plus 2?) While I'm all for merit, rugby is fragile in Italy, Scotland and (at least the regional game) Wales. Dont think it would be good to have no Italian representation, possibly no Scottish, or maybe only one Welsh region in the HEC. The English and French clubs care only about thier own leagues (which is reasonable) which is why you need somebody else protecting the smaller nations interests, and the game in general.

      Comment


        Four Pools of five teams won't work, unless there is only a single round of games. If a double round is played, it will take ten weekends to play all the fixtures. As well as that, there will be two pools with two french teams and one English and the other two with two English teams and one French.

        Five pools of four teams will mean quarter finals will be retained with the Five Pool winners plus three runners up going through, unless only the top four winners go through. (and the fifth would go into the Amlin??)

        Comment


          Originally posted by Yatenga View Post
          Would it really be the top six in Rabo or would there be some national allocation (e.g. top team from each of the 4 nations plus 2?) While I'm all for merit, rugby is fragile in Italy, Scotland and (at least the regional game) Wales. Dont think it would be good to have no Italian representation, possibly no Scottish, or maybe only one Welsh region in the HEC. The English and French clubs care only about thier own leagues (which is reasonable) which is why you need somebody else protecting the smaller nations interests, and the game in general.
          If the HEC allocation is 6 per league then I think it will be up to the league to decide who those 6 are.

          I think the Pro12 would still have guaranteed qualifiers per country.

          One way would be the top team from each country qualifying , then the next 2 based upon league position. This season that would mean Ulster, Glasgow, Scarlets and Treviso as the top country teams and Leinster and Ospreys as the next 2.

          If winning the HEC or ACC gets an additional place for the league, that would mean a play-off between Munster and Connacht for the 7th HEC place.

          Comment


            Originally posted by mikerob View Post
            If the HEC allocation is 6 per league then I think it will be up to the league to decide who those 6 are.

            I think the Pro12 would still have guaranteed qualifiers per country.

            One way would be the top team from each country qualifying , then the next 2 based upon league position. This season that would mean Ulster, Glasgow, Scarlets and Treviso as the top country teams and Leinster and Ospreys as the next 2.

            If winning the HEC or ACC gets an additional place for the league, that would mean a play-off between Munster and Connacht for the 7th HEC place.
            Can't see it happening. Ireland and Wales potentially get two entrants so that the English can make room for the likes of Bath and Wasps? There'd be blood on the carpet in Cardiff at any rate.
            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

            Comment


              No mention of additional places so if Rabo adopted a format like that (which would be reasonable) Ulster, Leinster, Ospreys, Glasgow, Scarlets and Treviso would be the qualifiers. Munster would be in the playoffs. If they went straight top 6 we would replace Treviso
              It certainly would make the Rabo more exciting to have a straight top 6 qualify

              Comment


                Originally posted by Piquet View Post
                Four Pools of five teams won't work, unless there is only a single round of games. If a double round is played, it will take ten weekends to play all the fixtures. As well as that, there will be two pools with two french teams and one English and the other two with two English teams and one French.

                Five pools of four teams will mean quarter finals will be retained with the Five Pool winners plus three runners up going through, unless only the top four winners go through. (and the fifth would go into the Amlin??)

                I don't think you can have a system where group winners go out. And I'm not sure that the English and French are going to all this trouble so that they get to play less rugby, have fewer fixtures to televise and fewer gates.

                They're already suggesting the addition of a play off to the fixture list.

                Whatever way they cut it it sounds like a balls up. And one created by a bunch of egotists who don't really understand their own product.
                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                Comment


                  I thought the primary motivation for the French teams was to reduce the number of games?

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Hellboy View Post
                    No conspiracy.
                    Do'nt forget that the french system is different than the anglo-saxon one, where Federations are managing their clubs but are also bringing money at home...

                    So there is a tough battle between the FFR (you know, the historical shadowmen and ex-players, also called the "old dusty overcoats") who lives and depends for the most of the money of the clubs, but got the executive power (even to spoil LNR ballot paper on the ERC election) and which is close to the celts and to old amateur world and their special privilege of "rugby values" or "highest interests of rugby"...

                    And on the other side, the LNR that brings ALL the money on the table, divided between a minority of pro-FFR (Serge and Clermont representatives essentially) and a fragile majority of modern CEO (Django Boudjellal and Calamity Jacky for example) and businessmen that would like to be unchained of the FFR's slavery and would like little more money in rugby (but not as much as football, just x2 ou x3) and less amateur rules and management.

                    I understood the english battle between clubs and RFU are quite the same than the french, but final interests are a bit different, I think ?

                    The celts problem is they'd like to survive in a Grand Circus, but the actual system made it impossible without special privileges that are unfair for english and french.

                    I think the present problem, even for the Celts, is the ERC/IRB old Cartel and godfathers who still want to live on their thrones with 19th century rules.
                    But that the french and english clubs should be released of the cowshed to the corral. With fences. But no ropes anymore.

                    Cantona' returns.

                    Comment


                      But Balla, wasn't one of the reasons given for the reduction in teams the requirements to reduce the number of fixtures?

                      Your last two sentences above are dead right.

                      Comment


                        Probably 4 groups of five with top two into quarters. So an extra two games (plus the playoffs to decide final qualifiers). Always hated the best two losers from six into the quarters - thought it was arbitrary and unfair. The whole business with getting an Italian team. And this could mean no more italian teams (certainly no more two Italian teams unless they qualify on merit.
                        Definitely a case for taking a hard look at HEC and maybe tinkering, but too much greed and self interest going round to suggest whatever resolution is reached will make for a better tournament

                        Comment


                          They will never have a group of 5 as that would mean a team missing on a game out each round and it would take 10 weekends to play the home-and-away group stages compared to 6 weekends at the moment. There is a lot more potential for dead rubber games with a group of 5.

                          Five groups of 4 is the most likely as that would fit into the existing number of weekends and qualifiers would be 5 group winners + top 3 2nd placed teams.

                          I don't actually think that the English and French want to reduce the number of HEC games... their push for a smaller HEC is under the guise of a "higher quality" tournament but in reality, it means they would increase the % of money they take as 6/20 > 6/24.

                          Comment


                            The top half of French and English teams qualify, and that needs to stay for all the Celtic nations too. That takes up 6 places. The 2 remaining should go to the next top team in the P12 (so 19) and the HEC winners nation. Personally think the winner of the Amlin gaining a place is stupid, few teams take it seriously (at least until the very end).

                            So:
                            Top 6 French (their own fault they have a bigger league than others)
                            Top 6 english
                            Top 2 Irish and Welsh
                            Top Scot and Italian
                            Next best in Rabo regardless of nation
                            HEC Winner

                            There's your 20 and it seems Fair. This year it would mean:
                            Clermont, Toulon, Toulouse, Castres, Racing, Montpillier + Perpignan (as Toulon win HEC)
                            Leicester, N'hampton, Saracens, Quins, Gloucester, Exeter.
                            Ulster, Leinster
                            Scarlets, Ospreys
                            Treviso
                            Glasgow
                            +Munster as top remaining side.

                            Interestingly this year in the pro12 this would mean the top 7 qualifying.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Yatenga View Post
                              Probably 4 groups of five with top two into quarters. So an extra two games (plus the playoffs to decide final qualifiers).
                              It's worse than that, Yatenga, an extra two games for each team all right, but with five teams in the Pool, there will be one team with no game in each round.
                              The Schedule would be:
                              Week One: 1 v 2, 3 v 4, 5 idle
                              Week Two: 5 v 1, 2 v 3, 4 idle
                              Week Three: 3 v 5, 4 v 2, 1 idle
                              Week Four: 4 v 1, 2 v 5, 3 idle
                              Week Five: 1 v 3, 5 v 4, 2 idle

                              Weeks six to ten would see the return matches.

                              Ten weeks for the Pools plus three for the knockouts making thirteen weeks in total. There just isn't room for this. If you throw in the Six Nations, (five weeks) the Autumn internationals (three more) and the Top14 (26 weeks plus three playoffs) that's a fifty week season. Even playing throughout the international weekends that still makes 42 weeks.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Pony View Post
                                The top half of French and English teams qualify, and that needs to stay for all the Celtic nations too. That takes up 6 places. The 2 remaining should go to the next top team in the P12 (so 19) and the HEC winners nation. Personally think the winner of the Amlin gaining a place is stupid, few teams take it seriously (at least until the very end).
                                Isn't this the point? Strengthening both competitions?

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