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The Lions - Should it be Canned for Good!? Time to Consign It to History?

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    #46
    How does a short term call up devalue anything? Thats the bit I dont get, they called up a guy said we have a few key injuries can you sit on a bench for 1 game. No big deal.

    As for Woodward he had a very structured approach to coaching, analysis of games etc not everyone agreed with his methods but they certainly worked in 2003. It doesnt in any way mean he didnt get it, I am sure he got it completely
    My computer thinks I'm gay
    What's the difference anyway
    When all the people do all day
    Is stare into a phone

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      #47
      Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
      The selection of Shane Williams would tend to undermine the best from four countries bit. And I don't really understand in what way I have shifted any goal posts from 6 nations to World cups, you don't play for a different country in one rather than the other. However I take your point on Heaslip, it is not my place to pass judgement on how he feels about playing for Ireland and/ or the Lions and for that I apologise. I have to take issue, however, with your assertion that players regard being picked for the Lions as a greater honour than being picked for their country. I don't think Martin Johnson did and from AD's strangely emboldened piece I don't think Mike Phillips does.
      There are countless quotes from past and present Lions that give effect to the view that being selected for the Lions is/was the highest honour of their careers. The fact that you don't agree with them, or indeed (as I suspect is more important to you) this sentiment, is largely irrelevant. Many of the aforementioned quotes have been posted already on another thread so I will not spam this thread with them again. But they are there for you to find if you look. Then again there is nobody as blind than those that refuse to look.
      "They’re the benchmark that everyone else has to raise their game to meet." Alan Quinlan on Leinster

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        #48
        Originally posted by offshorerules View Post
        .......Then again there is nobody as blind than those that refuse to look.
        except perhaps those that refuse to listen....
        ____________________________________________
        Munster were great when they were Munster.

        alas they are just north munster now.......
        ____________________________________________

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          #49
          Originally posted by Daithi View Post
          except perhaps those that refuse to listen....
          They would be deaf, no? Thankfully these threads don't come with sound.
          "They’re the benchmark that everyone else has to raise their game to meet." Alan Quinlan on Leinster

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            #50
            For me the Lions bolsters SH rugby at the expense of the development of NH rugby . A European rugby championship in its place would put badly needed funds into the coffers of Romania , Georgia, Spain, Portugal etc .

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              #51
              Originally posted by sewa View Post
              How does a short term call up devalue anything? Thats the bit I dont get, they called up a guy said we have a few key injuries can you sit on a bench for 1 game. No big deal.

              As for Woodward he had a very structured approach to coaching, analysis of games etc not everyone agreed with his methods but they certainly worked in 2003. It doesnt in any way mean he didnt get it, I am sure he got it completely
              For a self-professed Lions supporter who was pillorying everybody else for not backing Gatland's call, you really seem to have very little understanding of what it's all about yourself.

              If, like me, you were a supporter on that NZ tour and met many of the players involved down there, you might have a bit more understanding of just what Woodward's approach did to the Lions. There were lads coming back from it who hated the experience so much they didn't want to get selected the next time around. McGeechan (and Paulie) helped to renew it in South Africa by going back to basics and re-establishing the traditions, the pride and the enjoyment factor for players and supporters alike.

              As for the short term call-ups, the fact is that you devalue anything by giving it away for free. That's what calling up the likes of Williams does, it makes it no big deal, which is precisely the problem. The Lions is supposed to be special and it's not special if you don't have to earn it. Tom Court wasn't selected because he was the next best LH in these islands, he was selected because he was in Aus on his holidays and they thought they might be short for a game.

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                #52
                So you'd put the team out short a loosehead prop replacement and take your chances because of some notion of him not having earned it (despite being an Irish international prop who would definitely have been looked at over the season), what exactly would you do if your loosehead got injured? Call the game off?
                My computer thinks I'm gay
                What's the difference anyway
                When all the people do all day
                Is stare into a phone

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                  #53
                  Originally posted by sewa View Post
                  So you'd put the team out short a loosehead prop replacement and take your chances because of some notion of him not having earned it (despite being an Irish international prop who would definitely have been looked at over the season), what exactly would you do if your loosehead got injured? Call the game off?
                  No, like I said, just no short term call-ups and all selections to be made on the basis of the best available, not on the basis of who's on a beach down the road. Besides, in this particular instance they could simply have dropped Vunipola on the bench instead of withdrawing him altogether. Grant started so they had two fit LHs. As I also said, no wrapping players in cotton wool, part of the challenge is making do with what you have.

                  Now, I've listed my suggestions for how to sustain the uniqueness and the ethos of the Lions, where are yours? All you seem to be interested in doing is challenging anything you perceive to be a criticism of Gatland or, bizarrely given the complete balls he made of it, Woodward. Do you just do this to be contrary?

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                    #54
                    They couldn't risk Vunipola, they were down to bare bones with Healy and Jenkins out and Corbs calf I jury. Do you then risk your fourth choice loosehead in a midweek game, you do in your barney
                    My computer thinks I'm gay
                    What's the difference anyway
                    When all the people do all day
                    Is stare into a phone

                    Comment


                      #55
                      The tour should play against the pacific island teams, en route to NZ at least they would show up with a bit of pride and not just try to sell tickets for a third choice club team to play the third choice lions team.

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                        #56
                        One of the cornerstones in the success and love of rugby is going on tours at all levels whether that be school club or university.

                        We get plenty of clubs touring from europe over in indiana and its great.

                        The lions was the ultimate tour that encompass these values.

                        Would I let some fupp ups by Woodward stem my regard for Lions. in simple no.

                        There is a huge amount of non lions rugby done by Lions players on tour..involving schools , kids etc that get very little coverage.

                        I Would like to see SH teams do same and tour here in a revolving basis. ..eg SA play 2 tests v Ireland and maybe 2/3 games against provinces over 3 weeks.
                        Could we sell out that...we could try...game in Dublin game in Belfast etc...

                        Wouldn't it be great to see Munster play a Sh team every year... that's what touring is to the Host country.
                        People can point to Western force b team...but id point out that force tahs and rebels all had their biggest attendancs of the season v Lions...and all the social events that are organised by clubs visiting clubs during the tour.

                        Thats why id say long may it continue.
                        Last edited by NotreDameRFC; 9-July-2013, 19:28.
                        "Hell, I'm not saying I'm an angel, but when it came to dirty tricks I couldn't hold a candle to the Irish Mafia" Jimmy Hoffa

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                          #57
                          Originally posted by sewa View Post
                          They couldn't risk Vunipola, they were down to bare bones with Healy and Jenkins out and Corbs calf I jury. Do you then risk your fourth choice loosehead in a midweek game, you do in your barney
                          Grant and Cole starting, Vunipola and Stevens on the bench. If you're really risk averse, if Grant gets injured, stick Stevens on and have Cole switch sides. Worst case the scrum doesn't do too well but you'll still give the Rebels a hiding.

                          Do you also support calling up Williams, Barritt and 36? Sure why not just bring all four nations entire squads in the first place?

                          You're just spoofing now. Anything constructive to contribute?

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                            #58
                            Agreed ND. For me the Lions are the last relic at Pro level of a touring ethos that has always been a massively important part of rugby for me. Being part of a touring party is a special thing, and for those who've played it's usually the thing that comes up most when we're trading war stories.

                            I also agree that it's a bit ungracious to complain about A teams playing dirt trackers. If we'd had a Heineken Cup match or a league play off days after the Oz or ABs games they'd have seen second teams too.

                            Poorly scheduled, though, to clash like that.
                            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

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                              #59
                              Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
                              Agreed ND. For me the Lions are the last relic at Pro level of a touring ethos that has always been a massively important part of rugby for me. Being part of a touring party is a special thing, and for those who've played it's usually the thing that comes up most when we're trading war stories.

                              I also agree that it's a bit ungracious to complain about A teams playing dirt trackers. If we'd had a Heineken Cup match or a league play off days after the Oz or ABs games they'd have seen second teams too.

                              Poorly scheduled, though, to clash like that.
                              The western Force were completely out of the competition. It has been a deliberate ploy on the last three tours to put up weakened opposition for the Lions to undermine their chances in the tests, the SH were completely open about it until the Brit press threw some toys and hey presto Dingo released players.

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                                #60
                                Think something will be done about the midweek opposition when the agreement with Sanzar gets renegotiated after the next tour.

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