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The Lions - Should it be Canned for Good!? Time to Consign It to History?

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  • sewa
    replied
    What a load of tosh, two players try a clear out and it went wrong. Proving pre-meditation is impossible and requires an assumption NZ were that worried about BOD which I very much doubt given they were superior in every facet of play and almost every position

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  • the plastic paddy
    replied
    Originally posted by upandout View Post
    Are all spear tackles as bad or is this one special?
    It wasn't a tackle, the ball was twenty yards away at least.

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  • upandout
    replied
    Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
    Fair enough they didn't set out to paralyze him but they did set out to injure him and their means of so doing was such that he was extremely fortunate not to have been damaged more severely than he was. I would not even suggest having a look at the long distance replay on youtube because it is sickening. The reverse angle which has disappeared from history and, not only showed the nod, but also the linesman's proximity to the incident was shocking.
    Are all spear tackles as bad or is this one special?

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  • the plastic paddy
    replied
    Originally posted by upandout View Post
    Haha well I believe we've reached a point where we just disagree on a factor that cannot be proven. I remember at the time thinking the 'deliberate attempt to maim' suggestion was over the top. I severly doubt you would look Umaga or Mealamu in the eye and tell them you reckoned they set out to end a fellow professionals career.

    Suggesting a nod as a conclusive evidence of premeditated bodily harm is a bit tenuous for me I must say!
    Fair enough they didn't set out to paralyze him but they did set out to injure him and their means of so doing was such that he was extremely fortunate not to have been damaged more severely than he was. I would not even suggest having a look at the long distance replay on youtube because it is sickening. The reverse angle which has disappeared from history and, not only showed the nod, but also the linesman's proximity to the incident was shocking.

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  • upandout
    replied
    Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
    We will have to agree to disagree on this one, I am convinced that they set out to injure BOD. There was a camera angle shown at the time which clearly showed them nod to each other before they piled him into the ground, needless to say that particular shot was swiftly erased from history by the host broadcaster. I do question whether they would have assaulted BOD if he had been captaining Ireland rather than the Lions, but that particular tour was such a complete and utter shambles that there are plenty of other incidents from it that can be cited as evidence against the Lions without bringing up an act of thuggery the like of which even most New Zealanders will now admit brought shame upon the game of rugby. I admire Carter massively as a human being and a rugby player but that tour will always be about that assault.
    Haha well I believe we've reached a point where we just disagree on a factor that cannot be proven. I remember at the time thinking the 'deliberate attempt to maim' suggestion was over the top. I severly doubt you would look Umaga or Mealamu in the eye and tell them you reckoned they set out to end a fellow professionals career.

    Suggesting a nod as a conclusive evidence of premeditated bodily harm is a bit tenuous for me I must say!

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  • DONC
    replied
    Originally posted by upandout View Post
    Do you genuinely think if Ireland beat New Zealand for the first time with a similar incident occuring that people would be getting as up in arms as they did when it happened to O'Driscoll?
    In fairness I dont think anyone on here would support any Irish or Munster players doing that.

    Originally posted by sewa View Post
    "he could have doid"
    Not even remotely funny the fact is he could have.

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  • the plastic paddy
    replied
    Originally posted by upandout View Post
    Irish players have plenty of previous with foul play in the past. Clohessy perhaps the most graphic to my memory in more recent times Messrs Healy and O'Driscoll have produced dangerous moments of foul play. Correct me if I'm wrong but at the time of the umaga incident there was no law against a spear tackle. That law came as a result of the play. I'm not suggesting it was right but I don't think a single isolated incident can be used as a reason to disavow a wonderful rugby spectacle. Duncan McRae and his fists of fury was a more deliberate attempt to inflict pain and injury on a Lion. However that was ROG so we don't get so up in arms, Burger gouged again a very deliberate act of foul play with dangerous consequences but we're not holding onto that as a reason to stop the Lions. Players will transgress the law, competitive spirit ensures that. I believe they set out to rattle O'Driscoll certainly; I don't for a minute believe they set out to end his career.
    We will have to agree to disagree on this one, I am convinced that they set out to injure BOD. There was a camera angle shown at the time which clearly showed them nod to each other before they piled him into the ground, needless to say that particular shot was swiftly erased from history by the host broadcaster. I do question whether they would have assaulted BOD if he had been captaining Ireland rather than the Lions, but that particular tour was such a complete and utter shambles that there are plenty of other incidents from it that can be cited as evidence against the Lions without bringing up an act of thuggery the like of which even most New Zealanders will now admit brought shame upon the game of rugby. I admire Carter massively as a human being and a rugby player but that tour will always be about that assault.

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  • sewa
    replied
    "he could have doid"

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  • upandout
    replied
    Originally posted by The Outlaw View Post
    sorry mate I wouldn't. It was an absolute disgrace of an incident. And you're digging a hole for yourself there. He could have ended in a wheelchair had he not moved his neck. At that juncture if we beat NZ with Carter getting the same treatment I wouldn't take any pride in the win at all
    Do you genuinely think if Ireland beat New Zealand for the first time with a similar incident occuring that people would be getting as up in arms as they did when it happened to O'Driscoll?

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  • The Outlaw
    replied
    Originally posted by upandout View Post
    I am Irish and I remember the incident. It was however a multiple week tour and a lot more happened than just that. Being Irish we are always going to look back with anger on the incident. However if the next time Ireland played New Zealand SOB and POM dumped Carter on his head, put him out of the game and we went onto win; I think you and I both know we'd make yards and yards of excuses for our two lads and in actual fact be delighted at beating the NZ. Hell we'd probably praise the two lads for 'old school toughness' or some such.
    sorry mate I wouldn't. It was an absolute disgrace of an incident. And you're digging a hole for yourself there. He could have ended in a wheelchair had he not moved his neck. At that juncture if we beat NZ with Carter getting the same treatment I wouldn't take any pride in the win at all

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  • upandout
    replied
    Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
    Can't agree upandout, if two Irish lads deliberately speared any player into the ground like that, that far away from play they would correctly be torn to pieces on here. Fortunately I don't think any Irish player would ever try and maim someone in the way that Umanga and Mealamu did.
    Irish players have plenty of previous with foul play in the past. Clohessy perhaps the most graphic to my memory in more recent times Messrs Healy and O'Driscoll have produced dangerous moments of foul play. Correct me if I'm wrong but at the time of the umaga incident there was no law against a spear tackle. That law came as a result of the play. I'm not suggesting it was right but I don't think a single isolated incident can be used as a reason to disavow a wonderful rugby spectacle. Duncan McRae and his fists of fury was a more deliberate attempt to inflict pain and injury on a Lion. However that was ROG so we don't get so up in arms, Burger gouged again a very deliberate act of foul play with dangerous consequences but we're not holding onto that as a reason to stop the Lions. Players will transgress the law, competitive spirit ensures that. I believe they set out to rattle O'Driscoll certainly; I don't for a minute believe they set out to end his career.

    Leave a comment:


  • the plastic paddy
    replied
    The Lions - Should it be Canned for Good!? Time to Consign It to History?

    Can't agree upandout, if two Irish lads deliberately speared any player into the ground like that, that far away from play they would correctly be torn to pieces on here. Fortunately I don't think any Irish player would ever try and maim someone in the way that Umanga and Mealamu did.

    Leave a comment:


  • upandout
    replied
    Originally posted by The Outlaw View Post
    True but if you're Irish its hard not to remember him being taken clean out by a dangerous tackle that went unpunished
    I am Irish and I remember the incident. It was however a multiple week tour and a lot more happened than just that. Being Irish we are always going to look back with anger on the incident. However if the next time Ireland played New Zealand SOB and POM dumped Carter on his head, put him out of the game and we went onto win; I think you and I both know we'd make yards and yards of excuses for our two lads and in actual fact be delighted at beating the NZ. Hell we'd probably praise the two lads for 'old school toughness' or some such.

    Leave a comment:


  • the plastic paddy
    replied
    The Lions - Should it be Canned for Good!? Time to Consign It to History?

    What happened to BOD on this last tour does not even get close to Mealamu and Umanga's assault. I wonder if they would have set out to maim him if he had been captaining Ireland rather than the Lions?

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  • The Outlaw
    replied
    Originally posted by upandout View Post
    Please don't reduce another Lions tour to a single BOD related incident. There is a lot more to Lions tours than Brian O'Driscoll. Carters performances during that tour were the best fly half performances I've ever seen. If you're to remember something from that tour I'd recommend that.
    True but if you're Irish its hard not to remember him being taken clean out by a dangerous tackle that went unpunished

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