Right to die case listed in Irish High Court

[McCloud]

MS woman seeks early ruling from court on bid to end life
By Tim Healy


Friday November 02 2012




A WOMAN in the final stages of an incurable and debilitating disease has asked the High Court to rule whether she has a constitutional right to an assisted suicide.


Marie Fleming (59), from Co Wicklow, is in the final stages of multiple sclerosis (MS) and past the point where she could end her life by her own hand -- but wants to establish the right to do so with the assistance of someone else, the court heard.


She already has difficulties swallowing and speaking.


A specially convened division of the High Court -- comprising its president Mr Justice Nicholas Kearns, Mr Justice Gerard Hogan, and Mr Justice Paul Carney -- will hear her case on December 4.


While suicide is not illegal, it is an offence for a person to be an accomplice to such an act and attracts a jail sentence of up to 14 years.


Ronan Murphy, counsel for Ms Fleming, told Mr Justice Kearns yesterday she was challenging the constitutionality of that law insofar as it interferes with her rights to autonomy and dignity.


Counsel said he was seeking an early date for the hearing of the case because she is in the final stages of MS and past the point of ending her life without assistance.


In her claim, Ms Fleming, a former UCD law lecturer, seeks an order declaring Section 2(2) of the 1993 Criminal Law Suicide Act invalid under the Constitution and incompatible with the European Convention on Human Rights.


Alternatively, she wants an order from the court requiring the DPP to issue guidelines stating what factors will be taken into account when a decision is being made whether to prosecute a person who assists her in ending her life.


Ms Fleming's action is aimed at sparing her partner and full-time carer, Tom Curran, the threat of imprisonment because he has said he is prepared to help her end her life.


Wheelchair


Mr Curran is the co-ordinator of the Irish branch of Exit International, an organisation that campaigns for the legalisation of assisted suicide.


In an interview last September with the Irish Independent, Mr Curran said Ms Fleming, who is wheelchair bound and requires round-the-clock care, "may never exercise the decision (to end her life), but I am willing to go to prison if needs be.


"It would give Marie such comfort, such peace of mind, to know that I will be there for her and that she will not have to suffer needlessly."


Yesterday, lawyers for the Attorney General and the DPP said they had no objection to an early hearing date for the case.


- Tim Healy


Irish Independent

[Jenta]

No matter how many times you read about an application like this it doesn't make them any less saddening. Will be very interesting to see how it is handled by the High Court.

[McCloud]

No matter how many times you read about an application like this it doesn't make them any less saddening. Will be very interesting to see how it is handled by the High Court.

Have there been other cases before an Irish court or is this the first one?

[fitzy73]

Whilst I agree with the principle of people making their own decisions, the brutal reality of it all left me stone cold.

Terry Pratchett: Choosing To Die (2011) - Full Documentary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slZnfC-V1SY

Maybe it was the couple in question ... That hard nosed English stiff upper lip to the end.

Personally, I couldn't imagine a worse way to go.

[John Cooper Clarke]

Way too heavy a subject for me. That clip changed my whole day. Very strange.




p.s. It felt eerily like an execution, albeit with consent. Poor man looked great before taking the drugs that ended his life.

[DONC]

Yea that is very hard watching for sure Fitzy, but going whilst still in full control of your facilities, surrounded by your loved ones letting them remember you as you are in the fullness of life and sparing them (and you) the pain of watching you wither. There is something to be said for it but boy it must be hard.

I hope neither I or anyone I know ever have to make that decision but I think you should have the right to make it.

[Captain Average]

Whilst I agree with the principle of people making their own decisions, the brutal reality of it all left me stone cold.

Terry Pratchett: Choosing To Die (2011) - Full Documentary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slZnfC-V1SY

Maybe it was the couple in question ... That hard nosed English stiff upper lip to the end.

Personally, I couldn't imagine a worse way to go.

I remember watching that when it aired. It was a brilliant documentary and had me in tears at the end. Very hard watching.
It does manage to show both sides. That poor woman supported her husband to the end, no matter how hard it was on her.

[NotreDameRFC]

Thanks for sharing that clip. Mind blowing.

[Jenta]

Have there been other cases before an Irish court or is this the first one?

First one along these lines with a direct Constitutional challenege to the Suicide Act and the manner in which guidelines have been sought from the DPP as far as I know. There have been 'Right to Die' cases, but they've concerned the right to die a natural death as opposed to being assisted. There have been English cases on the subject, notably the Pretty, James and Purdy cases.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...iel-James.html

For what it's worth, I can't see the Flemings challenge in respect of the Suicide Act being successful.

[John Cooper Clarke]

Why is this case even necessary? Can't they just fly to Switzerland and let Dignitas look after the details?

Who pays the legal fees?

[The Last Stand]

Why is this case even necessary? Can't they just fly to Switzerland and let Dignitas look after the details?

Who pays the legal fees?

Why should people have to? Like abortion we just let other countries provide the solution. An Irish solution. Etc. Not something we should be proud about.

[McCloud]

Why is this case even necessary? Can't they just fly to Switzerland and let Dignitas look after the details?

Who pays the legal fees?

Why should they have to fly to Switzerland to avail of Dignitas? As to who pays the legal fees I guess the state may pick them up as it's a legal appeal based on the constitution?

[Viigand]

Because it is illegal in this jurisdiction and will remain so unless the people vote otherwise.

[John Cooper Clarke]

Why should people have to? Like abortion we just let other countries provide the solution. An Irish solution. Etc. Not something we should be proud about.

There's the rub.

As far as I can see it'd take actions in the High Court & the Supreme Court, and a referendum to make a Constitutional change to allow assisted suicide occur here.

We just can't afford it. We're bust.

[FORWARD....]

Why is this case even necessary? Can't they just fly to Switzerland and let Dignitas look after the details?

Who pays the legal fees?

Have you ever been seriously ill? It's hard to get out of bed let alone embark on a 3 hour flight. Dreadful, dreadful dilemma for all.

[Balla Boy]

There's the rub.

As far as I can see it'd take actions in the High Court & the Supreme Court, and a referendum to make a Constitutional change to allow assisted suicide occur here.

We just can't afford it. We're bust.

All the more reason not to foist expensive and unwanted medical and living support on those who want to die, I'd have thought.

[99_oK?]

There's the rub.

As far as I can see it'd take actions in the High Court & the Supreme Court, and a referendum to make a Constitutional change to allow assisted suicide occur here.

We just can't afford it - look at the cost of the current mess then...... We're bust - everybody except the speculators will very soon be bust unless we change the current situation.

The current situation is a mess. We are keeping people alive for the sake of it (or because our constitution says so....), all in discomfort, some in extreme pain.

One current example (v. close to me):

Now put yourselves in a wheelchair unable to pee or move without assistance, can't swallow (i.e. can't drink nevermind eat...). Person is in an out between hospital and full-time care for past 6 months. Docs now saw he's stable and could live on for years (he's under 60kg (< half his normal/former weight...), was a former businessman, cancer survivor over 30 years ago, in his youth was a big rugby forward and swimming champion, i.e. he did live -fully - but now realises game is up. His mind is perfect, but he's almost totally incapacitated and always in discomfort, sometimes in pain often extreme.
He wants to go but as he's in care if that happens someone will be found responsible and charged (he wanted to go home where on his own he'd either starve, choke or drown within a short time.....). He's not allowed....

Has now been admitted to a care home (at a cost of €1500 per week....). He owns a property and has some savings. His wife has alzheimers (in the same home - also costing similar), and they have some/modest savings. Their 2 adult siblings (+ grandchildren in 3rd level) are now unemployed and on short time respectively; he wants to pay their remaining mortgages, but is not allowed touch his money under the "Fair Deal" rules. His savings and property will be gone in a short enough time. If/when his savings/property value is exhausted he will no longer be kept in the (private) home; he'll enter a public sector home, but there will be a transition period when he'll be without care. i.e. when they have taken his life's earning's and savings he'll (be allowed) die......

Our current health minister supports this type of regime (he has financial interests in such homes and arrangements...). This is the society that we now have and I have a few more friends who are working on this (one a barrister and with MS, not that serious yet, but person uses a wheelchair but can still drive (a little)). She is also aware of the situation above and has tried fighting/assisting his case.

If you were a farmer or a person in charge of a pet in a similar situation you'd be prosecuted for cruelty, probably never again allowed to farm/own a pet. Yet we see no problem in putting people through extreme cruelty and pain, even when those people in have the mental capacity to make their own decisions, but either are not allowed or not able to carry out those decisions. Where are these people's rights?

-------------------------------------

A similar case in UK recently, person challenged/tried to get round the same legislation (i.e. we inherited it from the British legal system....see why I put our constitution in italics...), unsuccessfully. He painfully starved himself to death.

[John Cooper Clarke]

All the more reason not to foist expensive and unwanted medical and living support on those who want to die, I'd have thought.

I suppose, but I was talking more about the cost of the courts and a possible referendum.

It's a really heavy duty subject.

[Balla Boy]

That's horrendous, 99. The choices we leave people with are appalling.

[Balla Boy]

I suppose, but I was talking more about the cost of the courts and a possible referendum.

It's a really heavy duty subject.

Agree that it would be expensive to put right, but the status quo isn't cost free either - as 99Ok's example shows.

We'll spend as much money keeping people who don't want to be alive going as we would changing the system.

[DONC]

The current situation is a mess. We are keeping people alive for the sake of it (or because our constitution says so....), all in discomfort, some in extreme pain.

One current example (v. close to me):

Now put yourselves in a wheelchair unable to pee or move without assistance, can't swallow (i.e. can't drink nevermind eat...). Person is in an out between hospital and full-time care for past 6 months. Docs now saw he's stable and could live on for years (he's under 60kg (< half his normal/former weight...), was a former businessman, cancer survivor over 30 years ago, in his youth was a big rugby forward and swimming champion, i.e. he did live -fully - but now realises game is up. His mind is perfect, but he's almost totally incapacitated and always in discomfort, sometimes in pain often extreme.
He wants to go but as he's in care if that happens someone will be found responsible and charged (he wanted to go home where on his own he'd either starve, choke or drown within a short time.....). He's not allowed....

Has now been admitted to a care home (at a cost of €1500 per week....). He owns a property and has some savings. His wife has alzheimers (in the same home - also costing similar), and they have some/modest savings. Their 2 adult siblings (+ grandchildren in 3rd level) are now unemployed and on short time respectively; he wants to pay their remaining mortgages, but is not allowed touch his money under the "Fair Deal" rules. His savings and property will be gone in a short enough time. If/when his savings/property value is exhausted he will no longer be kept in the (private) home; he'll enter a public sector home, but there will be a transition period when he'll be without care. i.e. when they have taken his life's earning's and savings he'll (be allowed) die......

Our current health minister supports this type of regime (he has financial interests in such homes and arrangements...). This is the society that we now have and I have a few more friends who are working on this (one a barrister and with MS, not that serious yet, but person uses a wheelchair but can still drive (a little)). She is also aware of the situation above and has tried fighting/assisting his case.

If you were a farmer or a person in charge of a pet in a similar situation you'd be prosecuted for cruelty, probably never again allowed to farm/own a pet. Yet we see no problem in putting people through extreme cruelty and pain, even when those people in have the mental capacity to make their own decisions, but either are not allowed or not able to carry out those decisions. Where are these people's rights?

-------------------------------------

A similar case in UK recently, person challenged/tried to get round the same legislation (i.e. we inherited it from the British legal system....see why I put our constitution in italics...), unsuccessfully. He painfully starved himself to death.

Sad story for sure, tragic actually.

I have never understood what we consider humane to humans we think is unhumane to animals (correctly in the animals case) it is just nuts really.

[99_oK?]

I suppose, but I was talking more about the cost of the courts and a possible referendum - no recent government has had a problem dropping us in referenda at the drop of a hat.....

It's a really heavy duty subject.- yes, life and death is as heavy as it comes

Current system is cruel, expensive on both the state/HSE and individual/family (can bankrupt a family of comfortable even well-off means), nevermind denying the rights of the person in the middle to his own personal choice.

We have a referendum coming up in a few days which is ignoring the reality and history of children in care in this country. It will give more power to a group of people who will still only work 9 to 5 Mon-Fri, and orgganisation which has failed more kids in this country for various reasons. If our government can drag up an ill thought out referendum that is neither needed nor addresses the current situation, why do they ignore the realities of other groups in need of reform of the law? Maybe this one has good potential soundbytes to distract us from the realities that we are all paying for the rescue package for the Euro and German savings.....

Our government stands indicted on this.

[99_oK?]

That's horrendous, 99. The choices we leave people with are appalling.

It is. I visitied him a couple of months ago and while being warned of his condition, I was utterly shocked, and the fact that his wife of 60+ years no longer knows him is worse. He said if he was able to get to the window/balcony he'd immediately (he can talk/communicate but not comfortably, his mind is sharp as ever) go over the edge and end it, I looked out and said he'd probably survive as it was first floor; he asked me (half seriously...) if I'd ask the nurses to move him to a top-floor bed (he was in Vincent's then). Hard to have a sense of humour when you can't clean the snot off you nose (& worse...).

But I doubt anything will change, actually I'm pretty certain, but it still needs changing. He's not the first that the system has failed when he no longer can contribute, but do we not owe it to our old folks to live and die in dignity when their days are done/nearly done. There is no dignity from what I can see in any of this. But a whole raft are making fortunes from it (one lived not too far from where he lived - remember a certain care home owner being prosecuted not too long ago?).

[FORWARD....]

There is an often quoted study from 1991 or thereabouts and updated more recently that 75% of doctors would refuse chemotherapy if they had an incurable disease. The vast majority of medics would be sympathetic to the wishes of patients in not prolonging a terminal illness. Hospice and palliative care facilities have embraced this.
In Holland, where doctor assisted assisted suicide has been available since 2002 there doesn't appear to have been any weakening of the sense of value of human life. Local doctors often refuse such requests and patients then have recourse to a further assisted suicide team if they meet criteria. In Ireland, I cannot imagine most GPs assisting patients to die. I just don't see it. But a humane society has to assist family members in some way. Possibly a specially trained team of dedicated physicians/nurses and counsellors.
As medicine gets more and more efective at prolonging life, (where previously patients would not have survived these degenerative or gradually debilitating illnesses), society will have to find a way of modulating the management of such patients and families so that we can reduce the number of tragic cases quoted above by 99ok (and believe you me, I can tell you of many many more) and provide people and their families with a viable choice.
Exporting our "problem" is not the answer. But society has to agree that the options are legal. The medical community can't.

[John Cooper Clarke]

I've a relation who suffering from something called PSP - Progressive Subnuclear Palsy. It's like Parkinsons only worse. He's deteriorated hugely in recent years (was at the NZ game at TP with me) and it'll kill him eventually.

Poor devil is on my mind all day after reading this thread.

[mr chips]

Sorry to hear that JCC.

[Balla Boy]

I've a relation who suffering from something called PSP - Progressive Subnuclear Palsy. It's like Parkinsons only worse. He's deteriorated hugely in recent years (was at the NZ game at TP with me) and it'll kill him eventually.

Poor devil is on my mind all day after reading this thread.

Very sorry to hear it, JCC.

[JoeyFantastic]

Sorry to hear that JCC.

Watched the Prachett documentary there, very tough issue. Certainly it's no solution to export people to Switzerland to die though. I don't like the idea of extending that right to people who are tired of life though.

[McCloud]

Sorry to hear that JCC.

Watched the Prachett documentary there, very tough issue. Certainly it's no solution to export people to Switzerland to die though. I don't like the idea of extending that right to people who are tired of life though.

"tired of life though" what do you mean by that statement?

[The Last Stand]

Sorry to hear that JCC. In many ways it shows how we need to appreciate what we have - particularly great nights in TP and further afield.

While it will always have to be the choice of the individual in question, I hope that we do have a proper debate in this country on what is a very difficult issue.