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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by DONC View Post
    But on mature reflection I dont really have much interest in the Irish rugby team, my main concern being that any Munster players involved return to the fold undamaged. Since we returned to Lansdowne / Aviva Stadium I have not attended an Ireland game and I have no intention of doing so again whilst I draw breath.
    If you don't give a damn about the irish team, then your opinion on who's on it should be treated with
    extreme prejudice!!

    It's become cool around here to say they'd rather watch munster than ireland, but the
    principal is the same.. Would you rather have munster become Toulon, with just an
    occasional local getting a look in at times?
    Sure, it's great rugby, but would you be happy that you were no longer being represented?

    I'm pretty sure a large part of the goodwill generated by our success in the
    naughties was due to munster's 'closeness' with their fans. .. we at one stage
    had a guy from every county.. Foley and woody would allude to the parish
    ethos.. Do you think that would remain if munster had only sanzar players on it?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Cooper Clarke View Post
    Increased mobility has changed the world, and blurred national barriers at least to some extent.
    why should that be? should we have rules to stop this?
    If there is more mobility, as you say, then why can't strauss play for SA, like ruan pienaar does,
    and nacewa to fiji?
    Last edited by mtcmolloy; 25th-October-2012 at 13:06.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by mtcmolloy View Post
    If you don't give a damn about the irish team, then your opinion on whose on it should be treated with
    extreme prejudice!!

    It's become cool around here to say they'd rather watch munster than ireland, but the
    principal is the same.. Would you rather have munster become Toulon, with just an
    occasional local getting a look in at times?
    Sure, it's great rugby, but would you be happy that you were no longer being represented?

    I'm pretty sure a large part of the goodwill generated by our success in the
    naughties was due to munster's 'closeness' with their fans. .. we at one stage
    had a guy from every county.. Foley and woody would allude to the parish
    ethos.. Do you think that would remain if munster had only sanzar players on it?
    Irrelevant, because IRFU policy and the PAG specifically wouldn't allow that to happen.

    One of Munster Rugby's primary objectives is to identify, develop, and provide international standard players to the Irish team. It's in a mission statement somewhere. So Munster as it exists currently could never become another home for mercenaries.

  3. #183
    Leader of the Red Hordes Munsterboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Cooper Clarke View Post
    Irrelevant, because IRFU policy and the PAG specifically wouldn't allow that to happen.

    One of Munster Rugby's primary objectives is to identify, develop, and provide international standard players to the Irish team. It's in a mission statement somewhere. So Munster as it exists currently could never become another home for mercenaries.
    No reason, under current rules, we couldn't have 5 Saffers representing Munster and Ireland in a few years. All it takes is the cash and a bit of patience.

    Now, I can handle the provinces no longer being entirely representative sides. They now play in competitions against club sides and have had to adapt to be competitive. It's a shame as it weakens the bond with the supporters but it's a necessary and reasonable compromise.

    On the other hand, the Irish team is supposed to still be a representative side. Putting in place a system and a set of rules that allows wealthier unions to poach talent from abroad to strengthen the team is a dilution of the whole principle.

  4. #184
    Leader of the Red Hordes Munsterboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bitter As A Lemon View Post
    That is not going to happen, so why even suggest it?
    The point is, it could. If it's ok to have 1, why not have 15? You either support it or you don't.

    If you're prepared to buy in the talent that we need to win, then why not just do it properly, stop wasting money on developing young Irish lads and just invest it in recruiting guys who have come through better systems in NZ or SA? You'd get a quicker and more reliable return.

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  6. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Munsterboy View Post
    No reason, under current rules, we couldn't have 5 Saffers representing Munster and Ireland in a few years. All it takes is the cash and a bit of patience.

    Now, I can handle the provinces no longer being entirely representative sides. They now play in competitions against club sides and have had to adapt to be competitive. It's a shame as it weakens the bond with the supporters but it's a necessary and reasonable compromise.

    On the other hand, the Irish team is supposed to still be a representative side. Putting in place a system and a set of rules that allows wealthier unions to poach talent from abroad to strengthen the team is a dilution of the whole principle.
    We already have a 2 Kiwis, 2 Saffers and with another due I think.

    I can understand what you're getting at I think, but if we don't keep up we'll end up with a team on greener than green players, who will seldom win anything.

  7. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by mtcmolloy View Post
    If there is more mobility, as you say, then why can't strauss play for SA, like ruan pienaar does,
    and nacewa to fiji?
    He can, just hasn't been picked. I suppose he's not rated highly enough.

    I'm not sure if that's to do with ability, or unwillingness to play on Nacewa's side. Fiji killed his international prospects in 15 mins remember?

  8. #187
    Leader of the Red Hordes Munsterboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Cooper Clarke View Post
    We already have a 2 Kiwis, 2 Saffers and with another due I think.

    I can understand what you're getting at I think, but if we don't keep up we'll end up with a team on greener than green players, who will seldom win anything.
    That's the nub of the issue really. It's driven by the need to remain competitive and it's the IRB's rules that are the root cause of the problem. It's a little too easy for anybody with the money to buy talent and success (mind you, I'm not sure how effective it's been for England in recent years).

    I'm not going to stop supporting Ireland just because Strauss is playing but I think the pride I feel in a win will be somewhat diminished.

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  10. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Cooper Clarke View Post
    He can, just hasn't been picked. I suppose he's not rated highly enough.

    I'm not sure if that's to do with ability, or unwillingness to play on Nacewa's side. Fiji killed his international prospects in 15 mins remember?
    They killed his international career by selecting him
    on his national side.


    I see.

    So you think we should re-ignite his career, by changing the rules?
    Last edited by mtcmolloy; 25th-October-2012 at 13:47.

  11. #189
    Leader of the Red Hordes Munsterboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Cooper Clarke View Post
    He can, just hasn't been picked. I suppose he's not rated highly enough.

    I'm not sure if that's to do with ability, or unwillingness to play on Nacewa's side. Fiji killed his international prospects in 15 mins remember?
    Nacewa is an interesting case given the debate about what constitutes nationality etc.

    He has said that he doesn't want to play for Fiji because, having grown up in NZ, he considers himself a Kiwi. For him, playing for Fiji just doesn't feel right. He deeply regrets having playing a couple of minutes for them when he was a kid and didn't realise the consequences.

    I completely understand where he's coming from and I admire his stance on it.

  12. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by mtcmolloy View Post
    They killed his international career by selecting him
    on his national side.


    I see.

    So you think we should re-ignite his career, by changing the rules?
    No. He made a (bad) choice and can live with the consequences.

  13. #191
    Leader of the Red Hordes DONC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtcmolloy View Post
    If you don't give a damn about the irish team, then your opinion on who's on it should be treated with
    extreme prejudice!!

    It's become cool around here to say they'd rather watch munster than ireland, but the
    principal is the same.. Would you rather have munster become Toulon, with just an
    occasional local getting a look in at times?
    Sure, it's great rugby, but would you be happy that you were no longer being represented?

    I'm pretty sure a large part of the goodwill generated by our success in the
    naughties was due to munster's 'closeness' with their fans. .. we at one stage
    had a guy from every county.. Foley and woody would allude to the parish
    ethos.. Do you think that would remain if munster had only sanzar players on it?

    why should that be? should we have rules to stop this?
    If there is more mobility, as you say, then why can't strauss play for SA, like ruan pienaar does,
    and nacewa to fiji?


    Nice to see that you seem to care little for what is written caring more by the look of it for what you want to be written so as you can have your little rants.

    Please point out where I say I do not give a damn about the Irish team, having little interest and not giving a damn are totally different positions. My lack of interest in the Irish team stems for me from the lack of interest the IRFU have for the supporters, not to be a little sheep who likes to be cool. For many a year I never missed an Ireland game but that was then this is now.

    I would also have thought having such an intransigent view as you have would be the embodiment of extreme prejudice. You really seem to be a very angry man.
    I am one of the 5 clowns woo hoo

  14. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by mtcmolloy View Post
    S Foley and woody would allude to the parish
    ethos.. Do you think that would remain if munster had only sanzar players on it?
    Did you listen to Woody on Off The ball last night? He was far from alluding to Parish ethos.

  15. #193
    Munster Praetorian Guard Ragusa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeriddick View Post
    I'd love to know how the Anti-Strauss posters would react. Would they celebrate and then reign themselves in? Would they celebrate and then go "f*ck it I don't care anymore"? Would they refuse to celebrate? Would they even be watching in the first place?

    I'm interested to see how deep the principle goes.
    Joe - there are few Principles involved when it comes to Winners and realistically I dont accept some of the bull**** about the "concern" for Irish players losing out to Strauss being a foreign born qualified player playing for Ireland .There are some here that have issues about Leinster born players playing for Munster. However, when they start to become Winners they then are allowed to be naturalised. Nothing surprises me !!!!

  16. #194
    Great Chamberlain of the Red Empire sewa's Avatar
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    I think this fine thread has died off too early
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  17. #195
    Leader of the Red Hordes blackwarrior's Avatar
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    I'm with Balla. I think I posted something similar on the Stander thread. To me, playing for an international team is entirely different than playing for a club.

    I will support any nationality of player being part of the Munster set-up. Of course, my preference is that the bulk are Munster or Irish-born, so that the core of the team remains close to the support base.

    However, for me, to play for Ireland, you've got to be Irish. That can mean (1) born in the Republic or Northern Ireland, (2) a citizen of the Republic, or (3) qualifying for citizenship through the grandparent rule. I've posted elsewhere that the Irish diaspora are, to me, as Irish as my own children.

    They're just my views, but I hold them strongly.

    It's nothing to do with Strauss - he's playing the rules and I suppose I wish him well - I will even cheer if he wins us the 6N, Joe.

    But I abhor the 3-year rule. You've got to be Irish in the first instance. That's why playing International is an entirely different category than playing club. That distinction needs to be reclaimed and defended.
    "Playing against ROG, your big game plan is to try and pressure him but he’d dump it off to Wally and next thing you’re five metres behind the gain line because he was an absolute freak." Rory Best, Irish Examiner, May 2012

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  19. #196
    In the Departure Lounge Old Dog's Avatar
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    I'm so committed to the concept of an Irish team that I don't even want Gert Smal or Greg Feek coaching the squad. For me, to be genuine the Irish team must not only be 100% Irish but also be coached exclusively by Irishmen into the bargain.

    Them damned SH coaches will only contaminate the pure Irish team with their strange foreign winning ethos and their fancy dan tactics. Irish international rugby isn't about winning, it's about taking part and having a rake of pints with the opposition after the game.

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  21. #197
    Here comes another one!
    GERRY THORNLEY, Rugby Correspondent

    NOVEMBER INTERNATIONALS: RICHARDT STRAUSS and David Kilcoyne having been fast-tracked into the 31-man Irish squad which will convene next Monday for a five-day training camp at the Carton House, there could yet be an even more striking bolter for the November Tests in the considerable shape of Taranaki tight-head Michael Bent. He is evidently under consideration at any rate.
    The 26-year-old, who weighs 118 kg (18st 8lb), qualifies to play for Ireland through his Irish grandmother and last April signed a two-year deal with Leinster to replace the Connacht-bound Nathan White.
    Bent has been in contact with Leinster and Ireland scrum coach Greg Feek, formerly of Taranaki as well as Canterbury and the All Blacks, and following on from Taranaki’s extra-time defeat away to Canterbury last weekend which ended their interest in the ITM Cup, Bent has brought forward his arrival in Ireland to this Sunday.
    Significantly, Mike Ross is the only specialist tighthead in the 31-man squad and as with full-back – where the fit-again Felix Jones and Tommy Bowe both line-out for their provinces this evening after the ill-timed loss of Rob Kearney on Tuesday – the Ireland management are clearly keeping their options open.
    Declan Kidney has strongly intimated he would be adding a tight-head and another back which, though not certain to be a full-back, most likely will be, with Jones now the favourite.
    Much will depend on how Declan Fitzpatrick comes through only his second outing of the season for Ulster, away to the Dragons tonight.
    Fitzpatrick deputised for Ross in the first Test in New Zealand last June, and replaced him for the final quarter in the third Test. But due to a medial ligament injury has only played 49 minutes of rugby since then for Ulster, in their second Rabo Pro12 game away to the Ospreys on September 8th.
    Similarly, Ronan Loughney (who won his sole cap as a 56th minute replacement in that First test) has been injured and displaced by White’s arrival at Connacht, and Stephen Archer has seen little game time behind BJ Botha at Munster.
    Although Leinster’s only game after Bent’s arrival will be away to the Ospreys on Sunday week (six days before the Springboks Test) he is match-hardened. He was the only Taranaki forward to play in all of their 13 first-class matches this season, which culminated in last Saturday’s epic national provincial championship semi-final.
    Taranaki lost 51-27 but only after a comeback brought them level over 80 minutes, and with a kick to win the game, before conceding three tries in extra-time.
    Furthermore, for the first time at Test level, the IRB have sanctioned a trial in the November window permitting international teams to name eight replacements – including a second prop. With Tom Court now a specialist loose-head, all the more so after the pummelling in Twickenham last March, there will be a place for a specialist tighthead on the bench as back-up to Ross.
    Kidney also referenced Loughney, Archer, Tony Buckley at Sale and John Andress at Worcester as contenders, but Fitzpatrick and Bent look the likelier front-runners at this juncture.
    “I’ve been speaking to Feeky around getting over there earlier and getting some game time,” Bent told local media in Taranaki this week, and when asked about the possibility of being called into the Ireland squad to face South Africa, said: “They are not saying that is going to happen, I’ve just to get over there and play a bit of footy for Leinster first before they can even look at me.
    “It does sound pretty positive,” he added, “but obviously I’ve got to prove myself first before they can look at me seriously. There is interest in getting me playing as soon as possible, so I’ve just got to get over there, train as hard as I can and see what eventuates from that.”
    Bent, who has listed Ireland and Spain as his favourite holiday destinations, was limited to a replacement’s role in all of his six Super 15 appearances for the Hurricanes this season, though subsequently he has been touted as a contender for Player of the Year at Taranaki.
    Their coach Colin Cooper said: “He is an outstanding player and I think he had a great year for us. He has improved his game, both defensively and on attack, because his scrummaging was always good.”
    MICHAEL BENT

    Date of birth:
    25 April 1986 (age 26).

    Place of birth: Hawera, New Zealand.

    Height: 186 cm (6 ft 1 in).

    Weight: 118 kg (18 st 8 lb).

    Position: Prop.

    Provinces: Taranaki (2009-12, 29 caps) and Leinster (2012).

    Super Rugby: Hurricanes (2010-12, 11 caps).
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...325731750.html

  22. #198
    My name is Mandy and I live with my mom! i_like_cake's Avatar
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    Fair play to Leinsters team for finding an Irish qualified Tighthead, 26 and handy enough if he played all 13 of their first class matches...
    He was as lame as a duck. Not the metaphorical lame duck either, but a real duck that was actually lame. Maybe from stepping on a land mine or something.

  23. #199
    Leader of the Red Hordes DONC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Dog View Post
    I'm so committed to the concept of an Irish team that I don't even want Gert Smal or Greg Feek coaching the squad. For me, to be genuine the Irish team must not only be 100% Irish but also be coached exclusively by Irishmen into the bargain.

    Them damned SH coaches will only contaminate the pure Irish team with their strange foreign winning ethos and their fancy dan tactics. Irish international rugby isn't about winning, it's about taking part and having a rake of pints with the opposition after the game.
    Interesting OD was thinking along those lines also.

    How do you stand on the appearance should red hair and beards be mandatory or would you consider this optional?
    I am one of the 5 clowns woo hoo

  24. #200
    West Cork Massive taz's Avatar
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    Fair play to Irish Grannies.
    Otaga Daily Times 2/5/2012
    Taz-Where did you get that information as I have seen nowhere that he(Penney) was ruled out?
    Editor - The writer stands by the Penney information.
    Otaga Daily Times 3/5/2012
    Editor-
    - This article originally said Rob Penney had missed out on the Munster coaching job. That information was incorrect.

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  26. #201
    isnt it the gui not the guuk no, so can the ulster boys play for england, no cause they are affiliated with irfu same with golf, I think strauss has been at the epicentre of leinsters success and therefore ingrained in irelands most successful team ( kills me to say that ) therefore if he wants to play for ireland and gives his all for the green then of course we should use him, its not like an english man who never played in ireland and then declares for us that sickens me to the core, at least these lads are training with OUR teams and helping bring young lads through, therefore congradulations strauss and ill wait paiently for jared payne to declare too

  27. #202
    Admiral of the Fleet
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    Quote Originally Posted by In Exile View Post
    Irish qualifed through grandparents....what is wrong with that?

  28. #203
    Leader of the Red Hordes masterchief's Avatar
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    Re: Richardt Strauss - have we turned a corner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aussiedub View Post
    Irish qualifed through grandparents....what is wrong with that?
    Nothing wrong at all. IMHO he has more right to be there than Strauss.
    "If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards - checkmate!" Zapp Brannigan

  29. #204
    Leader of the Red Hordes blackwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STSENANS4LIFE View Post

    Isn't it the GUI, not the (English Golf Union) - no? So can the Ulster (rugby) boys play for England? No, because they are affiliated with IRFU; same with golf, I think.

    Strauss has been at the epicentre of Leinster's success and therefore ingrained in Ireland's most successful team (kills me to say that ). Therefore if he wants to play for Ireland and gives his all for the green, then of course we should use him.

    It's not like an Englishman who never played in Ireland and then declares for us - that sickens me to the core. At least these lads are training with OUR teams and helping bring young lads through. Therefore congratulations Strauss and I'll wait patiently for Jared Payne to declare too.
    Fixed that for you, St Senan man - I had a little trouble understanding some of your post!

    I agree with you to some extent about Strauss. He seems to have gone native and is clearly not a mercenary who arrived on the plane last night. But I still detest the system that allows it.
    "Playing against ROG, your big game plan is to try and pressure him but he’d dump it off to Wally and next thing you’re five metres behind the gain line because he was an absolute freak." Rory Best, Irish Examiner, May 2012

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  31. #205
    AD Is yer man Goodman ..leinsters other signing Irish qualified as well??

  32. #206
    In the Departure Lounge Old Dog's Avatar
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    Now this,

    unlike the selection of plastic paddies like

    Strauss/Sheehan/Boss/Maggs/Heaslip/O'Gara/Ward/O'Kelly/McQuilkan/Saverimuto/O'Cuinnegan/O'Grady/Tweed/Whoeveryou'rehavingyourselfsir,

    is the kind of selection that really annoys me.

    http://www.espnscrum.com/other/rugby/story/171663.html


    Bloody Saxons.
    I have now jumped the shark. Farewell.




  33. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Dog View Post
    Now this,

    unlike the selection of plastic paddies like

    Strauss/Sheehan/Boss/Maggs/Heaslip/O'Gara/Ward/O'Kelly/McQuilkan/Saverimuto/O'Cuinnegan/O'Grady/Tweed/Whoeveryou'rehavingyourselfsir,

    is the kind of selection that really annoys me.

    http://www.espnscrum.com/other/rugby/story/171663.html


    Bloody Saxons.

    To be fair he's played u18 and JRWC with England... manu tuilagi part 2 if you like...

    Or maybe your jesting...my irony radar is on the blink...

  34. #208
    stall the digger here; all ye people complaining about strauss inclusion where were ye when Rob Henderson and Mike Mullins got called up to the squad hey?? they are worse than strauss

  35. #209
    Leader of the Red Hordes masterchief's Avatar
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    Re: Richardt Strauss - have we turned a corner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by STSENANS4LIFE View Post
    stall the digger here; all ye people complaining about strauss inclusion where were ye when Rob Henderson and Mike Mullins got called up to the squad hey?? they are worse than strauss
    But they at least had Irish names. If Strauss had any cop on he'd be Risteard O'Strauss fairly lively!
    "If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards - checkmate!" Zapp Brannigan

  36. #210
    Admiral of the Fleet
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotreDameRFC View Post
    AD Is yer man Goodman ..leinsters other signing Irish qualified as well??
    Not yet - has to do the 3 year residency first

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