True but where will this stop?? Will we get to a stage where the IRFU management will look at the academies and monitor the progress of players in all positions and where they see a weakness or a lack of talent in a particular position they will head south to get someone to fill the talent gap.Originally Posted by mtcmolloy
I've seen better centres in a box of Black Magic
I feel pretty sorry for Andress too.
An Irishman born and bred who couldn't progress his career in Ireland so went to England to make something of himself and got to the point where he's first choice TH for an AP club. We seemingly prefer a guy that has an Irish granny, is just off the plane and has been playing in the ITM.
Like, say, Jeremy Manning? Wouldn't be at all surprised to see us doing it. It's as Quinny says in his article. There's gotta be some rules put in place to prevent poaching of teenagers at the very least.
Thing is, I'm not sure the poaching of young players is being done by the Unions to bring in potential internationals. Isn't it being done more by the clubs for their benefit? They don't really care if the lad plays international rugby or not (in fact they'd probably prefer if he didn't). Changing country eligibility rules won't necessarily stop it.
Last edited by Munsterboy; 31st-October-2012 at 14:18.
They were all eligible for an Irish passport though, and outside the NI born players, I'd say the rest carry Irish passports as well as their country of birth. Cornerflag who represent Court & Boss state that they have Irish passports. (They state what passport all their players carry). As far as I know, Boss's granny was from NI.
If anything i think, in a way, the English (ie RFU, int'l management) could be getting more stick than they deserve here. Out of the names you've mentioned above, please correct me if i'm wrong but i doubt that Flutey,Botha,Barrit et al would've moved to England with the overriding intention of playing for England. Its almost certain that they'd peaked in their native rugby systems and decided to make hay while the sun shines, more money in Europe, get to see a differnt culture etc. The fact they ended up qualifying for England was just a side effect. And if thye're the best available for England and living there then its hard to blame the management for picking them.
Vai'nakolo and Hape arrived in the UK to play league and then converted. So while it all can be hard to swallow, its not as cynical,cold-blooded, or just sharp practice as going abroad to actively bring in a player with the intention of qualifying down the line.
PS Tom Hayes has never been approached by the English management. Its all noise by the press as an Irishman playing for England makes great news.
Agreed, Peatbog. Vainokolo was residency qualified before he ever played Union in England, afaik.
As I said further up the thread, Englad have been happy to pick anyone playing in their system.
But the RFU doesn't have the means to implement an equivalent to the project player approach, as they've no club contracts to offer.
They're downstream of the clubs' recruitment. If the club never recruited another islander, you'd never see another in an England shirt.
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
In which case BB, to play devil's advocate, aren't we setting ourselves at a disadvantage in the real world?
Last edited by the plastic paddy; 1st-November-2012 at 07:53.
Ireland's Call in Afrikaans probably sounds like someone puking into a trumpet.
Last edited by joeriddick; 1st-November-2012 at 00:07.
To The Brave and the Faithful, Nothing is Unpublishable.
I don't believe poaching teenagers is really the issue. I think what is exercising a lot of posters on this thread is who should be eligible to play for Ireland, and can you frame acceptable rules around it?
Answering the second part has to be yes. At the moment we follow the IRB rules on eligibility (1 - born there; 2 - parent/grandparent born there; 3 - the three years residency). To me, I just don't buy the last part, and feel it will lead to international teams becoming more like club teams, which I happen to oppose.
Ironically, the Strauss/Bent examples are really good - because they open the debate up. Strauss, by all accounts, is committed to Ireland and playing for Ireland, although he qualifies on the 3-year rule - the one I believe shouldn't be there. Bent, although qualifying naturally by his granny, almost brings that rule into disrepute, and he is definitely at the outer edge of Irishness. But, to me, he qualifies, however flimsily.
At the moment, Strauss seems more Irish than Bent. But I think they are extreme examples, and the one I would rule out is Strauss - definitely.
I suppose, when it boils down to it, I feel the residency rule is much more open to exploitation by unions than the grandmother rule, and it has been. And, crucially, it means that players can play for more than one country at senior level - which flies completely in the face of nationality.
The granny rule isn't perfect, and it sure gets us some strange accents, but it's clear and it can't easily be worked around legally.
Last edited by blackwarrior; 31st-October-2012 at 23:21.
"Playing against ROG, your big game plan is to try and pressure him but hed dump it off to Wally and next thing youre five metres behind the gain line because he was an absolute freak." Rory Best, Irish Examiner, May 2012
AFAIK in union a player who has been capped can not go on and be capped by another country?
4 Feb 2011 - Gilmore on the General Election
"Frankfurts way or Labours way."
28 Feb 2012 - Gilmore on a yes vote for the fiscal treaty
"A vote for economic stability and a vote for economic recovery."
No, but it means that an uncapped player is essentially free to choose to play for any country in the world, conditional on living there for three years first.
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
Much better put than me Balla - 'twas late for me when I wrote it!
"Playing against ROG, your big game plan is to try and pressure him but hed dump it off to Wally and next thing youre five metres behind the gain line because he was an absolute freak." Rory Best, Irish Examiner, May 2012
It's a very good point, though, and I hadn't really considered it in that light.
We have a system in place that means that the next world class talent that the USA, or Italy, or Ireland produces could think "I don't want an international career where I'm being beaten out the gate most weeks, I want to play for the All Blacks" and could go and do it.
Unlikely, yes, but an illustration of the principles that underpin a system of "you play for where you live".
If that's the way we want it, why have three years at all? Why not one?
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
Interesting to see what one of the players impacted by the Strauss call up to the squad has to say.
Irish Examiner
Sherry keen to move up pecking order
By Barry Coughlan
Thursday, November 01, 2012
Mike Sherry has had to re-assess this past week on what might be required to break back into the Irish squad after being overlooked by head coach Declan Kidney.
Sherry believes the time could be right to take the gloves off in his ongoing battle to secure the number one hooking spot in Munster, following a recent series of 50-50 calls with his provincial colleague Damien Varley.
While both hookers have been pacified and grateful to Munster coach Rob Penney for being given an equal share of responsibility in all the big matches so far — Sherry has had four RaboDirect starts and Varley three — the 24-year-old now wonders if it might be time for one of them to break free.
He said: "Definitely one of us has to grab the opportunity and have two or three outstanding games to get in front of the other. I think both of us are playing very well and making the decision hard for Rob but from that point of view I think once of us needs to grab it and run with it."
Sherry’s disappointment stems from lost opportunity — of being called into Ireland’s 2011 World Cup squad as cover and not being given any game time on the summer tour to New Zealand — but he has no axe to grind with Kidney’s selection policy , even though home-grown hookers such as Sean Cronin, Varley and himself were initially excluded to the benefit of Leinster’s now naturalised South African Richardt Strauss.
But Sherry wasn’t in the least bit surprised by Strauss’s call-up.
"It is in the rule book [that it can be done] and I don’t think they are doing wrong. In fairness to Strauss, he has played very, very well over the last two or three years and he deserves his place. Good luck to him. He has won two Heineken Cups with Leinster, he has been a cornerstone of their team. It didn’t surprise me. Again, I was disappointed but it didn’t shock me that he was there at all."
His understanding of the situation still didn’t mask his disappointment when the squad was announced a week ago.
"You are always disappointed, you want to make that squad. I was there over the summer and I loved being there so the goal is to get back in.," he said.
Kidney is not usually one to close doors, but the selection of the now injured Rory Best as number one, Strauss as number two and clearly Sean Cronin as number three leaves Sherry to battle it out with Varley for whatever might be available down the pecking order; more clearly a chance to impress when Fiji play the Irish Wolfhounds in Thomond Park on November 17.
He added: "I know the competition is fairly competitive up there [in the Irish camp]. Rory Best is gone now it seems for a few weeks, so hopefully, I am looking at the Fiji game. They might rest somebody and maybe I might get in for that. I still have ‘Varles’ to compete with down here, but it is all up for grabs."
Munster full back Denis Hurley has been drafted into the Ireland squad as an extra back following the withdrawal of Brian O’Driscoll.
Prop Declan Fitzpatrick, who was being managed on a graduated return to play programme for a concussion sustained last Friday night, suffered a setback and will now be rested until Monday at which time he will recommence the testing procedures.
This makes him unavailable until he has completed this programme.
4 Feb 2011 - Gilmore on the General Election
"Frankfurts way or Labours way."
28 Feb 2012 - Gilmore on a yes vote for the fiscal treaty
"A vote for economic stability and a vote for economic recovery."
I think that the whole thing, as usual, has been ruined by greed. There is nothing wrong with the Mo Farah principle that someone could seek asylum in another country and go on to represent that country. One of the things that distinguishes human beings is our capacity to extend hospitality to strangers and, lord knows, Irish people have been in receipt of good and bad welcomes over the years.
The IRB have created a structure of qualification and stipulated that three years of residency is the period required to become naturalised. If the motives of everybody involved are honourable then three years is a perfectly acceptable timescale. I am happy to give Strauss and Bent the benefit of the doubt because at this time we cannot categorically judge the motives of either man and men they were when they made the decision to fly to the other end of the world to play rugby. I hope they do not prove to be cynical mercenaries because I do tend to cling to the ideal of rugby (and more especially irish rugby) being better than that but if they do let us down then they will be p*ssing in the water for the likes of CJ Stander who again has made an adult decision to throw his career in with Munster and Ireland.
I am deeply uncomfortable with the idea of grooming teenagers to up sticks with the offer of platinum education etc, as happens and has happened for a long time at Millfield. That it seems to be the de facto pre academy for english rugby is no great surprise, it has always been a deeply cynical institution that produces some of the most obnoxious w*nkers you would ever have the misfortune to meet. Vanipolu was almost certainly paid to attend the school; that he is going to go on to play for England is just plain wrong and undermines the whole principle behind residency qualification. Doubtless there was some shyster agent involved along the way to grease the wheels. I think the Fijians are perfectly within their rights to feel especially aggrieved over this situation, and I fervently hope that such cynical practice would not be undertaken by the IRFU.
As Quinnie suggests in his excellent article, the situation is not black and white, but I really do believe that rugby has to be very careful that it adheres to the spirit of the law as well as the letter or it risks alienating the many supporters drawn to the sport because of its innate sense of fair play.
One thing I would like to see addressed is the craziness of Paul Warwick's situation. It is plain wrong that a man with a young family with the medical issues his has should be, effectively, forced to leave their home country because he played a game of fecking sevens a decade before. This is where I would like to see some common sense and fair play adopted; it doesn't have to set a precedent or any of that legalise b*llocks, it can just be a one off case where the correct thing is done and if any shyster decides he will expose the consequent loophole he should be bounced fecking hard into touch. Paul Warwick should have been offered a three year contract and it was a shameful episode for Irish rugby that he wasn't!!!
Ah so much the same as it does in English then.
I am one of the 5 clowns woo hoo
Anybody born in the 'North' can get an Irish republic passport irrespective of their 'tradition'. Somehow i doubt Davy Tweed ever bothered have no idea if Rory Best or Andrew Trimble have.
Most people born here in the 'South' can also get a UK passport.
Since the Irish rugby team represents the IRFU, a 32 county organisation, the call for players to hold an 'Irish' passport is somewhat ignorant imho.
You are, I assume, familiar with the maxim that hard cases make bad law?
The Warwick (Nacewa) exemption, if one was to be created, is one that would establish a very dangerous precedent.
I am sure you are right OD but still doesn't make it right IMHO.
I think 3 years shows some degree of commitment to the country. If you wish to play for a particular country you have to sign for a team there, live there and succeed professionally to be considered for the international team, and have not played for another country.
On the internet, you can be anything you want. It always amazes me why so many people choose to be stupid.
I am a bit diasappointed with the 'black or white' attitude of some of the posters here.
From my own personal experience, I was lured to Ireland from New Zealand a few years ago (I'm not a rugby player by the way) and I have settled here, work here, made my home here, I have friends and family here and in general I love Ireland and I am very proud of Ireland and if I had the opportunity to represent Ireland I would consider it an honour to do so even though I am not, nor do I claim to be an 'Irishwoman' in the same sense as many here do, i.e. being born here.
I am proud of the country of my birth in the same way as I said above and for the same reasons, it does make things very difficult though when Ireland play the Blacks... a draw would always be the best outcome for me.
Many of the posters here have portrayed Strauss (and others) as mercenaries that have come here simply because they have been promised a cap or two from Ireland, and I feel this is grossly unfair as none of us really know the guy's motives or feelings on the matter. I'm not claiming to know them either, but I will tell you this much - to leave home is hard, but to stay away for at least three years, and probably more, is even harder and from my experience you need to feel some sort of a connection/pride/love with the place otherwise you wouldn't stick it.
In short, the world is now a much more fluid place, it is not as black or white anymore; you can get anywhere you want in about 24 hours should you need to, and this means there are more people like me, I am not from the country I call my home, but it is my home none the less and I will continue to be proud of it, and I would be honoured to represent Ireland should I ever be given the chance to, despite being considered unworthy to do so by many here.
Have been thinking about your post OD and sure you are right but we are talking about a sport as well as a form of employment and I think that the Warwick situation could easily have been dealt with on compassionate grounds without setting precedent. As it happens (and no disrespect T78) I find the rugby/ law thing a little bit overblown and pompous myself.
Well, I have lived abroad for about half my life now, most of that time in England. I like living here, I make a good living here and I may well raise a family here in future.I am a bit diasappointed with the 'black or white' attitude of some of the posters here.
From my own personal experience, I was lured to Ireland from New Zealand a few years ago (I'm not a rugby player by the way) and I have settled here, work here, made my home here, I have friends and family here and in general I love Ireland and I am very proud of Ireland and if I had the opportunity to represent Ireland I would consider it an honour to do so even though I am not, nor do I claim to be an 'Irishwoman' in the same sense as many here do, i.e. being born here.
I am proud of the country of my birth in the same way as I said above and for the same reasons, it does make things very difficult though when Ireland play the Blacks... a draw would always be the best outcome for me
Many of the posters here have portrayed Strauss (and others) as mercenaries that have come here simply because they have been promised a cap or two from Ireland, and I feel this is grossly unfair as none of us really know the guy's motives or feelings on the matter. I'm not claiming to know them either, but I will tell you this much - to leave home is hard, but to stay away for at least three years, and probably more, is even harder and from my experience you need to feel some sort of a connection/pride/love with the place otherwise you wouldn't stick it.
In short, the world is now a much more fluid place, it is not as black or white anymore; you can get anywhere you want in about 24 hours should you need to, and this means there are more people like me, I am not from the country I call my home, but it is my home none the less and I will continue to be proud of it, and I would be honoured to represent Ireland should I ever be given the chance to, despite being considered unworthy to do so by many here.
If, by some miracle, I were deemed good enough to play for England and got a call I would be eligible to accept. However, would I be worthy? Not even a tiny bit. Why? Because I don't feel the slightest bit English, I wouldn't have any pride in representing the country and probably wouldn't do justice to the jersey. I certainly wouldn't feel the same compulsion to put my body on the line as a patriotic Englishman would. Any English fan would be completely justified in bitching about my selection.
All anybody wants to do is to try to put in place some rule to eliminate as many people like me as possible while still including people like you. No rules are perfect but the current rules are pretty slack.
if you wouldn't do justice to the jersey you wouldn't accept or be offered the called up in the first place therefore negating your entire argument. if a player feels he can do the his adopted countries jersey justice as you put it then whats your problem with it?
I don\'t really understand the criticism of their so called ugly rugby.I love open running rugby but I also admire the collective mastery of this Munster team.They really are a reference in the game,to beat them you really have to play a perfect match
I knew a few Norn Iron players form a generation back; they were quite proud of their GB passports and wouldn't countenance a green (in those days.....) one. They still played with as much passion as anyone else for the green jersey. As a few of the NI boxers have said - 'tis too complex for most folks to understand (& Danny Barnes was a bit more forthcoming after Hickey's comments re. McIlroy recently).
This passport thing might be a side issue here, but it's very serious for some folks. Was in UL today (Limerick cross-country championships) and asked about a certain young person who had competed (well) in previous championships. I was informed he had been deported some time ago - he came to the attention of the Gardai when he was attacked (beaten up - ribs fractured and face smashed in...) while jogging to training in UL. He had a year to wait to apply for a passport, but he violated his conditions - he had 'come to the attention of the authorities' - he was the person attacked by a group of thugs near Watchouse Cross and was deported even before he was discharged from the regional. He was completely innocent (& imagine a 9 stone youngster against 4 lads....), yet he was the guy to be sent back to Africa......
Would you dare suggest what that precedent might be? Possibly that every person has a right to play international rugby (sport?); that's the only one I can think of currently.
I am aware of a few cases (not too long ago...) where Irishmen have gotten 1 cap (not Irish, not full senior....) with the intention of preventing them playing for Ireland. It worked seemingly..... (Ask Judge Blackett if you want the details of one case that was brought to him......).
Ireland have one of the smallest player pools to choose from, they bring in one prop to add competition. If Irish props were good enough Strauss would not be in the squad. Do I feel sorry for Cronin, hell no, how many years as a professional and he still cant throw a ball straight!! Typical Irish BS, lets be the only rugby nation to take the moral high ground and then we can go for a 100 point beating.If Irish players cant compete with the tiny number of project players brough in then they dont deserve to play. And if we are so worried about Irish rugby, why have any foreigners in the provinces, send them all home and maybe some fringe players would stand up and be counted. Lots of people getting upset about Bent coming in, what are the provinces doing to promote Irish players for tight head, Botha and Afoa, bring back Tony Buckley I say!! I was only kidding Deci.
I remember the same thing being said of Jerry as to why he went to Connacht and could not get in Munster team. Because he was a thick cnut he stood on a pitch for likely hundreds of hours throwing at a static target, until his line-out throwing was a work of art. If Cronin, Sherry etc want the shirt that's what it takes.
Last edited by Pony; 4th-November-2012 at 12:47.
Some good points here
3 years it too short
RFU need to review the rules
But if we win matches this year on the efforts of Strauss and Bent, everyone will quickly forget all this
If The Flintstones has taught us anything, it\'s that pelicans can be used to mix cement.
Why are we supposed to feel sympathy for a guy who couldn't cut it for the provinces and so moved and found success in a weaker league? He's playing in the AP for a very good reason, he isn't good enough to play here. Buckley did the exact same thing and shockingly he's now an AP starter too, the only reason you aren't clambering for him is we've seen his "caliber".
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