Munster v Zebre 26th Oct Team named post 59

[Viigand]

I'd like to see John Ryan getting a run out also, don't want all our eggs in one basket like Mushy.

[Thomond78]

Good post. Would you say then that Archer is worth investing in more than ryan/cotter..?
Or should they get some rotation too? I've not seen much of either of them, but would like to.

I don't see it as an either/or. As it is, they'll get a load of game-time in the B&I Cup, learning their trade in small grounds against devious ould whoors who can barely walk, never mind run, but who know every trick in the book. Proper scrummaging edumacation.

[rathbaner]

...we then have played him in the back row(until last night) when he's best displays last season were all in second row.

He was briiiant at 6 V Saints last year

[NotreDameRFC]

With bj on a specific contract term and the new IRFU rules...we need as many as our upcoming TH props getting exposure at pro12 level and B&I cup...

We don't want to just have one option as we have no NIQ back up option to fall back on....

I suppose the fact in Archer is a distance been off being a TH prop that would of a suitable standard for us to be a force in hcup and pro12....

Its a key position and we have to know when time is right to stick ir bust.

At the moment stick....but id want to see a few pictures cards getting turned in the next hand.

[Tobyglen]

4 years later & Archer shows little sign of improving regardless of the pathetic excuses listed on here. Time to try John Ryan

[outside inside]

Penney has been smart in his handling of Kilcoyne and Archer , he has played them with an experienced prop alongside , Kilcoyne with BJ and Archer with WDP .Last night was the first time we had all the young front rowers out together , the first half was terrible to watch but it will stand to them , probably had three matches worth of scrums . The other props will get game time , Penney has let some of them go on loan and has over the next few months opportunities to bring them in . I like the fact that he is not picking completely inexperienced sides but mixing and matching , it is much fairer on the young player getting his start .

[Thomond78]

4 years later & Archer shows little sign of improving regardless of the pathetic excuses listed on here. Time to try John Ryan

Four years ago = 2008. Archer's debut was from the Academy in the Apropcalypse in late 2009 v. Edinburgh. Development contract the year after that. Only in his second year of a senior contract.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/squ...uderef=dynamic

Four years later, my Swiss. G'wan and check the facts before spoofing.

[Angus Axe]

It's great to see Penny manage the youth, they will really learn and benefit from his input. They're will be plenty of frustration to come, but the Munster will be transformed and with the age profile of team will be a powerhouse again

[Ruck Em]

I am more positive about our prop situation now than I have been in a long time. Kilcoyne could have a big influence here. Now that he took his chance and broke through to Munster team and Ireland training camp, the others shouldn't be afraid of the jump and hopefully will follow him too. This could inspire the rest etc etc....

[Dowlinz]

What do folks think about Donnacha Ryan's form so far this season?

[onthe 22]

It's great to see Penny manage the youth, they will really learn and benefit from his input. They're will be plenty of frustration to come, but the Munster will be transformed and with the age profile of team will be a powerhouse again

Amen to that!

[joeriddick]

Review of the game up here if anyone's interested.

What do folks think about Donnacha Ryan's form so far this season?

Thought he was quite good in the second half of the Edinburgh game but pretty average in every other game. The player welfare programme was probably the worst thing for him.

[sewa]

He hasnt hurt anyone yet, if he saves that for the critical games from December on thats cool, he will hit his form when we need it most I reckon

[NotreDameRFC]

Alot of the Irish international players only getting into swing of things now...Ryan will be fine.

[99_oK?]

Nearly thawed out now.........

Just watched it again (got my maplin box up & runnin' taz; only problem is manual seems to be in Polish so it took me ages to figure how to play back the recording.....!), and have had a peruse of a few pages of this thread.

Suppose I should be delighted that we won with a BP, but I can't get myself that enthused about the game/result.

Why? First half we were dire, didn't look like we knew how to play nevermind score. Zebre should have had a least 2 trys, but their own propensity to self-destruct basically robbed 'em. First penalty they got - what was that about - kicking from inside their own 10m... wtf! And our scrum was in real trouble all first half, real trouble. I know Perugini is a former Azurri, but that wasn't the Osprey's f-row. We seemed to get parity or close with Varley and Puppy on and Ryan on for them. Yes, the Italians messud up our scrum in the first half, but isn't that what wily old scrummagers do..! We'll meet better f-rows than that and we need to improve a lot in that area. Our overall play in the first half was poor too - they were shunting us over and back across the field. If anything, their pack seemed to have a slight advantage in loose too for that half; our backs got no decent ball at all in that half.

Second half we seemed more on the ball from the start, but JJ's first and Felix's trys just wouldn't have happened against a decent side. JJ was allowed run in untouched when there was really no gap, same for Felix but he cleverly ran at the ref as well (well done there boyo....!). In contrast the 3rd and 4th trys were well worked by the whole team and we had started playing good rugby by then (was Murray the difference..?). Keatley's grubber was the just one of a number of good carries and plays in the lead-up; same for O'Dea's, was well worked into that position. Looking back I'd say our finishing pack was the difference - Holland, Varley and even Puppy seemed to be showing up more and better than the lads they replaced. Also PoM looked more at home at #8. DoC showed up better again and seemed to improve as the game went on; still can't see him as a default winger though...! Kilcoyne showed up well in the loose, but scrum seemed better with Puppy.

As for JJ getting MotM, suppose 2 trys on his first start was exceptional, but he really should have held that last pass. Keatley for me was excellent, especially as our pack got some advantage in the 2nd half. Nice to see Felix and Johne come through unscathed; LoD looked lively all night and too his try well. Zebo not as prominent as previous games, but still decent.

Re. some comments on Neil Hennessy - thought he was fine, but had no option to whistle at times. Scrums were a mess, especially in the first half. Thought we got lucky with some resets. As for knock-ons, both sides couldn't seem to hold the ball for more than 2 phases at times. Not the ref's fault...... He seemed to deal with the handbags (most exciting part of the game...?) in a sensible manner too.

Overall, don't know what to think. We played well again for the last 10, 1st half was worse than dire, rest just about acceptable. Is it a cunning plan to fool the opposition into going asleep...? But then again this was Zebre and at home; we'll meet much better sides than that.

[Tobyglen]

Four years ago = 2008. Archer's debut was from the Academy in the Apropcalypse in late 2009 v. Edinburgh. Development contract the year after that. Only in his second year of a senior contract.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/squ...uderef=dynamic

Four years later, my Swiss. G'wan and check the facts before spoofing.

It's so easy, I need a more challenging poster.

[joeriddick]

DoC showed up better again and seemed to improve as the game went on; still can't see him as a default winger though...!

None of the forwards are out there to be a winger - they are there to facilitate secure recycling of ball in an area of maximum opportunity and gain yards against opposition backs.

[NotreDameRFC]

None of the forwards are out there to be a winger - they are there to facilitate secure recycling of ball in an area of maximum opportunity and gain yards against opposition backs.

I agree Joe..with one addition....Schmidt made it his mission statement to make ALL his Leinster players better at ball handling and passing...hopefully penney will have similar ethos in that area ( not trying to replicate all things blue here)
because that skillset is poor amongst Irish forwards.

[99_oK?]

None of the forwards are out there to be a winger - they are there to facilitate secure recycling of ball in an area of maximum opportunity and gain yards against opposition backs.

I was slightly tongue-in-cheek there joe, but I'd prefer to see Zebo or O'Dea get a chance of skinning his man up the line. I know DoC did get one charge through his man last night, just I'd prefer to see him doing it up the middle, giving options to attack either side off the recycle.

[joeriddick]

I agree Joe..with one addition....Schmidt made it his mission statement to make ALL his Leinster players better at ball handling and passing...hopefully penney will have similar ethos in that area ( not trying to replicate all things blue here)
because that skillset is poor amongst Irish forwards.

I remember one passage of play in the first half last night. A ball came at Ryan at a decent height and it ended up going through his hands and bouncing off his chest. That kind of thing must kill Penney. Our system can only work when forwards are more likely to catch and offload then they are to fumble and knock on.

[joeriddick]

I was slightly tongue-in-cheek there joe, but I'd prefer to see Zebo or O'Dea get a chance of skinning his man up the line. I know DoC did get one charge through his man last night, just I'd prefer to see him doing it up the middle, giving options to attack either side off the recycle.

I get ya

The thing is though, I think forwards on the wing are there to facilitate O'Dea and Zebo doing just that.

I think the idea is to move around the opposition pack early on and then truck it up to the middle from 50 minutes.

[blackwarrior]

I remember one passage of play in the first half last night. A ball came at Ryan at a decent height and it ended up going through his hands and bouncing off his chest. That kind of thing must kill Penney. Our system can only work when forwards are more likely to catch and offload then they are to fumble and knock on.

I saw that too. I felt that Sherry or Kilcoyne distracted him by initially going to catch it, but "left" if for Ryan, who made a right hash of it. I wouldn't be generalising much from that incident. Ryan has fairly good hands IMO.

I think Penney will be telling the guys to get their alignment right first, then the knock-ons will reduce ...

[joeriddick]

I saw that too. I felt that Sherry or Kilcoyne distracted him by initially going to catch it, but "left" if for Ryan, who made a right hash of it. I wouldn't be generalising much from that incident. Ryan has fairly good hands IMO.

I think Penney will be telling the guys to get their alignment right first, then the knock-ons will reduce ...

I wasn't specifically targeting Ryan in that (I agree that generally he's quite comfortable with ball in hand) it's just that kind of thing that must drive Penney mental.

Like I've said before, come December I think we're going to see a total performance in one or both of the December HCup games - all the signs are there.

[NotreDameRFC]

I was slightly tongue-in-cheek there joe, but I'd prefer to see Zebo or O'Dea get a chance of skinning his man up the line. I know DoC did get one charge through his man last night, just I'd prefer to see him doing it up the middle, giving options to attack either side off the recycle.

With that 99...i think we are slightly stuck between two types of defence....ordinarily when you have forwards out at centre or wing .. for offensive or defensive reasons ...he's there to isolate himself against a smaller back to either get across gainline and offload or turnover the guy because he's more isolated.

Teams that usually do that usually bluff opposition into committing numbers at breakdown whilst you don't..in essence your giving up easy first phase possession and targeting 2nd and 3rd phase where opposition player is more isolated.
I feel we are trying to this...but a) our players still go.in at big numbers at ruck and b) skillset isn't there yet in our fowards for handling skills.

[Thomond78]

It's so easy, I need a more challenging poster.

Yeah, right. Wriggle away, boy, wriggle away and keep telling yourself they're laughing with you.

[Thomond78]

None of the forwards are out there to be a winger - they are there to facilitate secure recycling of ball in an area of maximum opportunity and gain yards against opposition backs.

Showed it nicely at one stage just before one of the tries Sherry and DOC on the east side, about forty out. Great hands from Sherry to DOC, DOC smashes about ten yards in the carry, Sherry cleans and there's perfect fast ball with all the backs free to exploit it.

[joeriddick]

Showed it nicely at one stage just before one of the tries Sherry and DOC on the east side, about forty out. Great hands from Sherry to DOC, DOC smashes about ten yards in the carry, Sherry cleans and there's perfect fast ball with all the backs free to exploit it.

I remember that passage - it's the perfect example of what Penney wants. Most of the opposition to "forwards on the wing" is the apparent positional irony that those four words convey and the dissonance that this supposed upside down thinking creates when compared with "Glorious Successful Munster of Ye Olden Tymes". I get this in a way, I mean, "forwards on the wing" sounds a bit like "wingers in the scrum" if you choose to interpret it in black and white terms.

I think if people started to look at it in terms of "forwards securing the wide channels, making the opposition play where they don't want to and searching for ball carrying mismatches" it would create a lot less confusion.

[Thomond78]

I remember that passage - it's the perfect example of what Penney wants. Most of the opposition to "forwards on the wing" is the apparent positional irony that those four words convey and the dissonance that this supposed upside down thinking creates when compared with "Glorious Successful Munster of Ye Olden Tymes". I get this in a way, I mean, "forwards on the wing" sounds a bit like "wingers in the scrum" if you choose to interpret it in black and white terms.

I think if people started to look at it in terms of "forwards securing the wide channels, making the opposition play where they don't want to and searching for ball carrying mismatches" it would create a lot less confusion.

And your point is....?

[joeriddick]

originally posted by dougie 7

and your point is....?

You shouldn't be in there Dougie. The scrum is for forwards, not for wingers.

[lactose intolerant]

The one thing that really bothered me about last night is that without Paulie, we really don't seem to possess a defensive lineout!! They were rarely troubled on their own throw in, except by the crowd that is