Hardly went for pints the day there was no food.Originally Posted by fitzy73
Hardly went for pints the day there was no food.
They're not necessities either.
A better job than the Irish Times though.
But, yes , I feely admit that I am struggling to make sense of the family's income or of how their cornflake budget is about the same as my family's well fed budget.
I'd be delighted if you could explain the figures.
Are you on a wind-up?
"How are the kids?"
"They aren't eating properly - but they do have credit on their phones."
"Poor things - give them their pocket money."
You've been given plenty of rope and you can hardly wait to wrap it around your neck. If anything highlights some people's attitudes to Ireland's "poverty" this thread is doing it well. Completely deluded sense of priorities.
1. Food
2. Shelter
3. Warmth
Poverty is relative.We are supposed to be a first world country.
Are you seriously suggesting someone on a supposedly decent salary well above the average wage should be happy that he can provide nothing more than the absolute necessities of life for his family?
I don't think they would be 'happy' glorob, but food has take priority over mobile phones etc
I realised I was dyslexic when I went to a toga party dressed as a goat
But we are being told he can't afford the basics.
"There are weeks when I can’t put food on the table"
"There are what she calls “cornflakes days”, when they eat nothing else."
We are a bankrupt first world country. Living standards are going to slip. We all knew this, but now people seem horrified to learn that the dip in living standards might actually mean you wash your dishes by hand, or you can't keep your kids phones topped up each month. You may have been waiting for the bank bailout and consequent events to impact in some huge dramatic way, but it won't. Here it is: You may no longer be able to afford things you previously could. That may mean mobile phone credit, your TV package, a holiday or even health insurance.
The drop in living standards means people will have to adapt. The "good" years are gone. That is no longer the norm.
There are only two possible conclusions to this story:
That the family are truly not eating properly, but are maintaining expenditure on telephones/utilities/"other expenditure"/pocket money ahead of food.
That the claims of not eating properly are untrue, and were added to provide extra urgency to the story. The family have enough to eat, but are failing to adapt to their reduced income and what that means in real terms (i.e. giving up certain middle class habits they may have become accustomed to).
I don't dispute for a moment that living standards are dropping here.
I don't dispute for a moment that public sector wages are down.
I don't dispute that Ireland is too expensive (now 5th/6th most expensive in the EU - it's outrageous)
But I do dispute that someone on a Garda Sgt's wage can't feed their family properly, even with a higher than average mortgage repayment.
rte.ie/news
ILCU survey finds levels of disposable income have decreased
Updated: 10:52, Monday, 22 October 2012
The number of people who are left with €100 or less at the end of the month after essential bills are paid has risen to over 1.8 million.
42% of consumers have had to borrow money to pay bills in the last 12 months
Half of all adults are also struggling to pay their bills on time, a survey by the Irish League of Credit Unions has found.
42% of consumers have had to borrow money to pay bills in the last 12 months and only three in ten are able to save any money at the end of the month.
Levels of disposable income are also continuing to decrease with an increase of 35,000 since June in the numbers with just €100 or less at the end of the month.
The latest "What's Left" tracker survey also shows that over half of people feel that the introduction of property tax is unfair since they already paid a property tax in the form of stamp duty.
Eight out of ten consumers are worried that they will not be able to cope with the increasing energy costs this winter.
The tracker also found 96% of consumers are worried about the impact the 2013 Budget will have on their incomes.
The survey was carried out last month and is based on 1,000 responses from adults aged between 18 and 65 years of age.
4 Feb 2011 - Gilmore on the General Election
"Frankfurts way or Labours way."
28 Feb 2012 - Gilmore on a yes vote for the fiscal treaty
"A vote for economic stability and a vote for economic recovery."
Expenditure on things like mobile phones is often a one off monthly commitment paid by people when they get paid and feel a bit flush.
Food is usually bought on a weekly basis with the odd bit of daily expenditure to top it up. Peopel who are short of money often run out in the run up to pay day and if they do not have access to credit then food can be scarce for a day or two.
Many people on tight budgets do their best but in the run up to pay day there are often shortages. This can occur for many reasons like some unplanned spending becomming a necessity e.g. the car breaking down, a visit to the GP stc.
I am not suggesting for a moment that if there is a decision to be made between a mobile phone top up and buying food for the dinner that people buy a phone top up. That would be grossly irresponsible.
A problem for many at the moment is they are making a priority of paying their excessive mortgage repayments to the detriment of everything else.
Last edited by glorob; 22nd-October-2012 at 11:23.
I have known a VDeP volunteer for years and the one thing she sees day in day out as she makes her calls is that the vast majority of people cannot manage a home and have no sense of home econmics, a subject that is kind of guffawed at in school and classed as a cop out. Every kid through all the years should be taught it.
I know one friend who complains bitterly about the cost of their heating bill but they walk around their house in shorts and a t-shirt in the middle of winter! Learning to cook and bake and buy in bulk is half the battle of reducing food bills as well.
...and Mr. Crow comes on for Mr. Magpie.
Spot on Boo-boo, also the inability to cook basic meals and as a result spending a fortune on take aways
There are glaring inaccuracies with the story. You can start with the headline (& title of this thread) - just not true either.
As was printed (incorrectly - it's near but not correct) in the story his basic salary was €51,084, and taking all allowances and other perks into consideration his total package (taxable) would now be somewhere near €60k PA, maybe even a few k more if he did get any overtime (generally banned now). That was confirmed by another member of the force on here and the info is also readily available for anyone who cares to research. His mistake seems to have been to get caught in a declining property market and to be trying to raise kids at the same time.
A lot of people are struggling financially - recent survey outlined that nearly half the population have less than €100 per month after covering essentials. Not a lot of leeway in that. The subject in this case seems to below the waterline as (put simply) his expenses have gone up and his income has gone down - and even if other supplementary work was available, he is not allowed.
His biggest mistake is that he seems to have believed Bertie and his prediction of a soft landing. You now saying he should take Bertie's other advised option?
They may not be the best budgeters, but who is? Recent think tank recommended that Revenue be reduced to save €4.5M PA - at an estimated reduction of €350M in revenue income....!
What "evidence" says otherwise? Show me one piece of evidence (not hearsay or conjecture) that shows they can't eat properly. An anonymous person saying they can't eat properly off €60k PA is not evidence.But I do dispute that someone on a Garda Sgt's wage can't feed their family properly, even with a higher than average mortgage repayment - why? All the evidence says otherwise.
The detailed breakdown for MABS shows hundreds of euro per month being spent on Telepone/Utilities/Other expenditure, while we are expected to believe they are not eating properly. They are spending nearly €300 per month on health insurance, while not getting adequate nutrition. They are spending €240 per month on clothes/shoes, while the kids are eating cornflakes for a full day.
They have enough money to buy proper food. If they are not buying it, then it's through some bizarre lack of prioritisation. But it's clear what the more likely explanation is.
Exactly, their maths are verging on offensive to the hundreds of thousands who do struggle.
It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.
Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win
Just because they related their story to a journalist who happened to make a very poor job of putting it into print?
I do hope things keep fine for you and you do not fall on hard times like those many hard working middle class families in Ireland are currently experiencing.
No, because as has been repeatedly pointed out to you they actually have money to spend, they seem to prefer to not spend it on food though.
There are many, many people in this State who can't afford food, you should invest your concern in them.
It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.
Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win
Having enough money to buy food does not constitute having enough money to spend. These people, and many like them, do not have enough money to spend. That is a fact which you choose to ignore.
If it is not a matter of concern that families with an income at least 50% above the average wage are struggling to pay their bills, put food on the table and live some kind of normal life then this country is even more ****ed up than I thought it was.
Last edited by glorob; 22nd-October-2012 at 15:32.
Joey,
800 minus 1,100 should be easy enough though.
300 in the red (ongoing....) is the way Mabs sees it. I can't see them having any agenda. Not saying Kathy may have had one (albeit badly put/written.....).
--------------------------------
bugler,
Your comment:
"But it's clear what the more likely explanation is." -???
It isn't clear. Care to elaborate.........
Ah Rob, you didn't come down in the last shower and you know yourself Bugler's analysis is correct. They are choosing to not to buy food.
It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.
Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win
ILCU latest figures on expenditure v. income:
1.3m have < €50 left each month after paying essentials.
Expenditure (in order of size): Mortgage/rent, utilities, transport..... Food not the top spend.
Here's one article link http://www.businessandleadership.com...-irish-living/
You are correct in stating I did not come down in the last shower. Indeed I have a specialist qualification in insolvency and work in that field though mainly in the area of Corporate Insolvency.
I could not agree with you that Bugler's analysis is correct.
It is a pity though this discussion is based on a very poor piece of journalism.
I already knew your expertise.
Ultimately, this family could afford food and are choosing not to.
It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.
Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win
Joey, it is not that simple.
Many people who are financially stretched do their best to pay their bills and feed their families. The problem is the unexpected then happens. A family emergency crops up, someone needs the GP, the car breaks down, the kids bring home an unexpected bill from school, any one of a hundred different things that may not be in the budget that month. Maybe they can deal with one unexpected payment but what if there are two. There is no rainy day fund. €50 euro, the price of a decent match ticket for a Munster game, is make or break for them.
I have unfortunately met people who were not in a position to put food on the table on a given day. None of them planned it that way and indeed had an expectation at the beginning of the month they would be able to put food on the table.
If what is coming in is less than what is going out people need to adjust their outgoings. Anyone in this situation would be well advised to contact MABS. Non essential spending should be cut where possible and mortgage providers and other lenders approached with a view to restructuring. Most importantly people should not be too embarrassed or ashamed to look for help in restructuring their finances. Not feeding the family, or not attending the GP when sick is only making a bad situation even worse.
In some ways I would view paying the bills and not leaving enough to buy food as irresponsible but I am loath to criticize people who are doing what they think is best for their families in very difficult circumstances.
There are clearly two issues being discussed here. One, whether the semi-notional case in the article holds water, the second whether it hints at a broader issue in Ireland.
Everyone has admitted that the original article left lots to be desired.
Making that point repeatedly won't change the broader situation.
The point Glorob makes is a simple one, and undeniable. That those on salaries like that illustrated here might struggle in any given month.
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
On the contrary, it is the poor journalism that has sparked most of the heated debate. Some people read things that weren't there, and others argued on the basis of a faulty interpretation of the figures.
While the quality of the original article spoiled the entire thread for me, there has been some really impressive posting here, from both sides of the argument. Strange that so much quality could spring from such shabby writing.
"Playing against ROG, your big game plan is to try and pressure him but he’d dump it off to Wally and next thing you’re five metres behind the gain line because he was an absolute freak." Rory Best, Irish Examiner, May 2012
According to the Indo on Sunday the family mentioned in the original article would have had 7 euro spare at the end of the month as reckoned by their (Sunday Indo) number crunches. Is it part of the problem in Ireland we are not willing to admit that there are families out there having cornflakes days? Say it's not happening and its not a problem?
4 Feb 2011 - Gilmore on the General Election
"Frankfurts way or Labours way."
28 Feb 2012 - Gilmore on a yes vote for the fiscal treaty
"A vote for economic stability and a vote for economic recovery."
Glorob,
Are you suggesting that a couple on over 70'000 should be in some way helped by the tax payer because they say they're not earning enough to feed themselves? Give the hardship some people are in in this society, I would be very funds being given to people. If parents earning that much money can't support their children they are disgracefully inept. If the state has to spend funds on that family, it should be on taking their children off them. There are couples in much more difficult circumstances giving their children a much better quality of life.
Stories like this piss me off because they take away from actual suffering in this country. They also create debates like we have here where were arguing over what a middle class family are getting from the state, rather than arguing about NAMA developers on 200'000 a year salaries being allowed to maintain lifestyles they aren't entitled to - an issue getting disgracefully little attention.
"There are probably more annoying things than being hectored about African development by a wealthy Irish rock star in a cowboy hat, but I can't think of one at the moment"
Paul Theroux
I am not suggesting direct support from the taxpayer in the form of income support or other financial assistance. What would help would be:
We need some guidance on what an acceptable lifestyle for a family is. For example there are very differing views on this site about the benefits of Private Health Insurance. Should a family in difficulty have to give up their Private Medical Insurance before they get a deal from the bank on their mortgage?
A realisation from the State that many that would be classed as middle class are now being financially squeesed and that they cannot keep taking from the same well through direct taxation, indirect taxation or more/increased charges for services.
A massive expansion of the services provided by MABS (Money Advice and Budgeting Service). If a family on €60,000 or €70,000 a year cannot make ends meet they need to restructure their outgoings and MABS can assist and guide them through this process.
Banks need to get real. They got their arses kicked earlier in the week by the Central Bank over their lack of action in dealing with mortgage difficulties. The banks need to realise they cannot leave things on the long finger and hope everthing will sort itself out in time with another property boom. They need to work with people in resolving mortgage and loan arrears and payment difficulties and have a whole range of options to use, including debt write off, as circumstances demand.
Last edited by glorob; 23rd-October-2012 at 07:59.
McWilliams was on Matt Cooper during the week, worth a listen if you have the chance. Made the point that at this stage if you don't believe in debt forgiveness for Joe Public you don't understand economics. He continued that without debt forgiveness EVERYONE will be worse off in the long term, and said he couldn't understand why people had such a hard line attitude to it considering it will cost us more in the long term if it isn't brought in sooner rather than later.
\"There is no need for temples, no need for complicated philosophies. My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness\".
Dalai Lama
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