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  1. #1

    When 75,000 a year just isn't enough.

    'We are the silent poverty class . . . there is absolutely no help and no one is listening'

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    KATHY SHERIDAN
    “BEFORE WE start”, said the woman from the Money Advice and Budgeting Service (Mabs), “you should know you’re the seventh guard in here in 10 days.” Seated in front of her were a despairing Garda sergeant and his wife. The Mabs adviser was attempting to reassure them that they were not alone.
    Colm and Jean (not their real names) had been floundering for a while. Over several years, Jean had been in contact with this reporter, describing the struggle of people on so-called middle incomes: “We are the silent poverty class. We’re not the kind to ring Joe Duffy or give our names but I’m sure there are thousands like us. There is absolutely no help and no one listening . . .”
    Last week, in desperation, she wrote a letter to a number of politicians, including Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar, “mainly because every time I hear him on the radio, he seems to be very anti-public service – as are all his backbench Fine Gael colleagues”.
    In the letter, some details of her family circumstances were changed to protect her husband’s identity. However, The Irish Times has since met her and established the facts to its satisfaction.
    The couple’s financial problems had been brewing for about seven years, since they bought a well-located but modest, four-bed semi-detached house with an extra bedroom and a better choice of schools for their children. “It was when prices were at their peak . . . We didn’t know that,” she says.
    Now, after computing the household figures, the Mabs adviser was focusing on the mortgage of nearly €1,400 a month. Unless Colm started selling impounded drugs, she joked, they would have to seek help from St Vincent de Paul. She would be happy to refer them. In her long, neat columns of income and outgoings, the family’s “available income” per week came to minus €286.36. The mortgage is over the next 25 years and her husband is over 50, Jean wrote.
    “ . . . Interest rates are only going to go one way and that’s up . . . I am scared for our children’s future and ours. There are weeks when I can’t put food on the table . . . To the outsider, we look like we have it all . . . Inside we are having a nightmare.
    “Whilst we pay our mortgage every month we have absolutely no extra cash at all after all the bills are paid. We live in constant terror of the washing machine breaking down or the car”, she wrote.
    “If it wasn’t for my mother bailing us out all the time, we would be right under,” she added.
    The effect of constant scrimping and worry leaches into every crevice of family life. There are what she calls “cornflakes days”, when they eat nothing else. There is the pain of seeing their eldest child make it to a prestigious third-level course, but unable to register because they can’t assemble the fees: “Imagine how upsetting that is?”
    The younger children are resigned to the fact that they can’t attend birthday parties because the standard €20 gift is way beyond the family’s means.
    “We have no savings, no holiday home, no fancy cars,” she wrote. “We have never done anything to put ourselves at risk, only move house to have an extra bedroom . . . We are dying a slow death. We go nowhere.”
    Piano or swimming lessons, are unthinkable. She pays the TV licence in dribs and drabs to keep out of the courts. A repair man arrives and gives an estimate of €100 to fix the dishwasher. Later, sitting in the unheated house, she says her parents, a couple on “ordinary pensions”, will probably pay for the dishwasher and the college fees.
    How can this happen to a family with an annual income of about €75,000 gross (including overtime and allowances) last year? To a Garda officer in possession of that holy grail of the permanent, pensionable, public sector job? To a family that didn’t party, or buy the Spanish villa, that always paid its bills on time and made sacrifices to maintain the health insurance payments? The payslip is revealing. The health insurance payment to the Garda scheme is €75 a week. The pension-related payments amount to even more.
    Some years ago, they prudently joined the Garda credit union’s billpay scheme by which all their bills – including the mortgage – were calculated on a budget plan, and €528 a week deducted at source to pay them (identified as “St Raph BV” on the payslip).
    However, price rises in gas, petrol and electricity mean the sum is no longer sufficient to cover the bills. Garda overtime is not available anymore, they say, and the allowances are under threat. They know that the €77.06 weekly rent allowance (designed to cover the cost of gardaí being obliged to live away from their home area), will probably be a target of the cuts.
    After six years’ service as a sergeant, the basic salary before allowances is €51,084 but clearly, their day-to-day living expenses have come to depend on the allowances and child benefit. Not featured in the payslip is a payment of €500 a month, after tax, to cover unsocial hours. For Colm, this is compensation for six consecutive nights a month of 10-hour duty, plus Saturday and Sunday work.
    After all deductions, he is left with about €109.22 net on his weekly payslip to cover all other costs. Their great fear now is of losing any of those allowances, which Jean describes as a lifeline. If the rent allowance was cut, for example, he would be left with about €30 on his payslip in an average week to cover essential outgoings.
    The picture painted by the Mabs adviser is not quite as cheerful. She calculated the family’s net pay and child benefit total at €807.37. After totting up the mortgage payment and items such as fuel, food, clothing and footwear, education/medical/ transport, bin charges etc, she saw no way of getting their outgoings below €1,100 a week.
    Seven years ago, said Jean, the price of their new house included €36,000 stamp duty. “And now they are coming after us for property tax and child benefit cuts . . . We are not entitled to a grant or any help . . . At least if I was on social welfare, my [child] would get a grant for college, I would get the interest paid on my mortgage and I would get medical cards. At the moment, I can’t afford to bring my children to the doctor.”
    She wonders in the letter how they can be expected to give more, concluding: “We are a sinking ship and nobody is throwing a rope.”
    It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

    Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

  2. #2
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    What a crap article! I can't help but feel there is an alterior motive going on....

    “you should know you’re the seventh guard in here in 10 days.”

    Beyond that if he can't afford a mortgage of €1,400 a month out of €75k/year plus child benefit I wonder is there something else going on that his wife is unaware of?!? I'm not saying it's easy but definitely manageable...

    Also, how can the net pay come to €800/week (incl child benefit)? Even if he was contributing approx €10k to pension, health, etc he should still end up with about €1,000 per week incl child benefit (I'm presuming they have at least 3 kids based on the fact they moved house in order to accomodate them).

    So that's €4,300 odd per month....minus mortgage, bills, etc they should have enough. Even if that €807/week figure was correct it still leaves them with approx €3,500k net per month. Am I mad in thinking this should still be enough in order to make sure they don't have "Cornflakes" days?

    Maybe it's just me...
    \"There is no need for temples, no need for complicated philosophies. My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness\".
    Dalai Lama

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  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by John123 View Post
    What a crap article! I can't help but feel there is an alterior motive going on....

    “you should know you’re the seventh guard in here in 10 days.”

    Beyond that if he can't afford a mortgage of €1,400 a month out of €75k/year plus child benefit I wonder is there something else going on that his wife is unaware of?!? I'm not saying it's easy but definitely manageable...

    Also, how can the net pay come to €800/week (incl child benefit)? Even if he was contributing approx €10k to pension, health, etc he should still end up with about €1,000 per week incl child benefit (I'm presuming they have at least 3 kids based on the fact they moved house in order to accomodate them).

    So that's €4,300 odd per month....minus mortgage, bills, etc they should have enough. Even if that €807/week figure was correct it still leaves them with approx €3,500k net per month. Am I mad in thinking this should still be enough in order to make sure they don't have "Cornflakes" days?

    Maybe it's just me...
    The article brushes over whether the wife was working or not, presumably not. One of them is lying anyhow, or confusing essentials for luxuries.
    It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

    Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

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  6. #4
    There but for the Grace of God.........
    Anybody who sees a psychiatrist would want their head examined.*&nb sp;Henry Ford

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  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyFantastic View Post
    The article brushes over whether the wife was working or not, presumably not. One of them is lying anyhow, or confusing essentials for luxuries.
    It brushes over a number of things which makes me VERY suspicious...I'm just amazed the Times printed this.
    \"There is no need for temples, no need for complicated philosophies. My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness\".
    Dalai Lama

  9. #6
    Nobody made them buy a horribly overinflated house. Take that out of the equation and all is cushty.

    Many people can only dream of a €50,000 salary, never mind a €75,000 one with perks.

  10. #7
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    Then they should just "take it out of the equation", I guess. No problem doing that with negative equity once over the age of 50.

    The lack of common feeling here is, frankly, disturbing. The MABS advisor reckons they're fecked, but we can assert that they "should" be able to manage despite having less info.

    Personally, I think it's a bit of a liability on a society that someone on that sort of income can't live. But that's clearly the bleeding heart in me.

    Far rather the "tough ****" approach advocated here. For what died the sons of Roisin, eh?
    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy

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  12. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by John Cooper Clarke View Post
    Nobody made them buy a horribly overinflated house. Take that out of the equation and all is cushty.

    Many people can only dream of a €50,000 salary, never mind a €75,000 one with perks.
    tbf, the 75k includes most of the perks.

    Amazing a Garda's child can't get a loan to attend college, let alone a part time job to defray some of the costs.
    It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

    Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

  13. #9
    Very strange article €75k is a fair wedge of cash.
    4 Feb 2011 - Gilmore on the General Election

    "Frankfurts way or Labours way."

    28 Feb 2012 - Gilmore on a yes vote for the fiscal treaty

    "A vote for economic stability and a vote for economic recovery."

  14. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Balla Boy View Post
    Then they should just "take it out of the equation", I guess. No problem doing that with negative equity once over the age of 50.

    The lack of common feeling here is, frankly, disturbing. The MABS advisor reckons they're fecked, but we can assert that they "should" be able to manage despite having less info.

    Personally, I think it's a bit of a liability on a society that someone on that sort of income can't live. But that's clearly the bleeding heart in me.

    Far rather the "tough ****" approach advocated here. For what died the sons of Roisin, eh?
    I'm more concerned our streets are being policed by someone who can't make 75k stretch tbh, or convince his wife to get a part time job rather than write the newspapers.
    It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

    Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

  15. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balla Boy View Post
    Then they should just "take it out of the equation", I guess. No problem doing that with negative equity once over the age of 50.

    The lack of common feeling here is, frankly, disturbing. The MABS advisor reckons they're fecked, but we can assert that they "should" be able to manage despite having less info.

    Personally, I think it's a bit of a liability on a society that someone on that sort of income can't live. But that's clearly the bleeding heart in me.

    Far rather the "tough ****" approach advocated here. For what died the sons of Roisin, eh?
    Balla, I'm totally with you but I have more of an issue with the way the article was written than anything else. It doesn't stack up based on what his take home and mortgage is....

    I totally agree with you re "take it out of the equation", it's the way forward for this country and should have been done by now. The banks would end up getting the money anyway but you're "solving" TWO issues at once as opposed to one.
    \"There is no need for temples, no need for complicated philosophies. My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness\".
    Dalai Lama

  16. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyFantastic View Post
    I'm more concerned our streets are being policed by someone who can't make 75k stretch tbh, or convince his wife to get a part time job rather than write the newspapers.
    Work being plentiful and easily acquired in the Irish economy at the moment?

    The impoverishment of the middle class is generally considered to be the defining theme of the last twenty years. I don't see why we're reluctant to accept that people on apparently high salaries are stretched.
    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy

  17. #13
    Moderator Balla Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John123 View Post
    Balla, I'm totally with you but I have more of an issue with the way the article was written than anything else. It doesn't stack up based on what his take home and mortgage is....

    I totally agree with you re "take it out of the equation", it's the way forward for this country and should have been done by now. The banks would end up getting the money anyway but you're "solving" TWO issues at once as opposed to one.
    I'm assuming there's only so much info they're going to put in the public domain, but is the independent advisor not some sort of reliable witness on that?

    The numbers seem a bit shocking, but I think that's the point.

    Ireland is a horrendously expensive place to live, and hasn't become any less so despite the fact that fewer people are working.
    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy

  18. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Balla Boy View Post
    Then they should just "take it out of the equation", I guess. No problem doing that with negative equity once over the age of 50.

    The lack of common feeling here is, frankly, disturbing. The MABS advisor reckons they're fecked, but we can assert that they "should" be able to manage despite having less info.

    Personally, I think it's a bit of a liability on a society that someone on that sort of income can't live. But that's clearly the bleeding heart in me.

    Far rather the "tough ****" approach advocated here. For what died the sons of Roisin, eh?

    They have over €4500 coming in every month.

    I'm going to give them a large amount to spend every month - say the following ...

    Mortgage - €1,400
    Pension (say 10%) - €450
    Lecky - €150
    Gas - €150
    Food - €750
    Phone - €100
    Other bills (petrol etc) - €500

    That totals €3,500.

    Adding all their expenses together, they should easily have €1,000 left over.

    I'm all for looking after the poor in society. These people aren't poor.

    They just aren't managing their money.
    “Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.”

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  20. #15
    Moderator Balla Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitzy73 View Post
    They have over €4500 coming in every month.

    I'm going to give them a large amount to spend every month - say the following ...

    Mortgage - €1,400
    Pension (say 10%) - €450
    Lecky - €150
    Gas - €150
    Food - €750
    Phone - €100
    Other bills (petrol etc) - €500

    That totals €3,500.

    Adding all their expenses together, they should easily have €1,000 left over.

    I'm all for looking after the poor in society. These people aren't poor.

    They just aren't managing their money.
    So this just isn't true? :

    The picture painted by the Mabs adviser is not quite as cheerful. She calculated the family’s net pay and child benefit total at €807.37. After totting up the mortgage payment and items such as fuel, food, clothing and footwear, education/medical/ transport, bin charges etc, she saw no way of getting their outgoings below €1,100 a week.
    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy

  21. #16
    It's also interesting they either got nothing for their old house or they went for a massively more expensive house when they moved home to leave them paying the bones of a 100 percent mortgage.

    Tbh, these articles annoy because there is hundreds of thousands of people who are genuinely struggling, this is a poor mouth article ahead of the budget.
    It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

    Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

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  23. #17
    Do we really pay middle ranking coppers 75K PA?
    Anybody who sees a psychiatrist would want their head examined.*&nb sp;Henry Ford

  24. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyFantastic View Post
    tbf, the 75k includes most of the perks...
    His employers pension contribution alone would be a further €12,000 p.a.

    Don't forget a Garda can retire at 50 with full pension benefits (after 30 years service).

  25. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by John Cooper Clarke View Post
    His employers pension contribution alone would be a further €12,000 p.a.

    Don't forget a Garda can retire at 50 with full pension benefits (after 30 years service).
    didn't realise that re the pension contribution, my already diminished sympathy is on life support.
    It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

    Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

  26. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by cornerboy View Post
    Do we really pay middle ranking coppers 75K PA?
    It's our own fault for tolerating a bizarre system where overtime and allowances ended up forming part of the basic pay. I've no huge issue with Gardai being paid well but the structure of the wages is nonsense.
    It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

    Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

  27. #21
    Debt forgiveness is fundamentally wrong.

    In the case quoted the household income was more than sufficent to make ends meet. It's the family that made the (financially suicidal) decision to buy and overpriced house and overborrow in the process. The responsibilty for that is theirs, and theirs alone.

    Letting them off in whole or in part will only lead to a deep divide within society between those that blew the family silver and struck gold again by getting a write off, and those that lived and borrowed prudently and ended up essentially bailing out the former group. That'd be truly horrendous and horribly divisive.

    I can see some merit in a scheme where post write off residual ownership should be reduced in a similar manner the debt written off however.

    House valued at €300k, debt is €450k. Debt written down by 50% to become affordable. House is sold for €350k sometime far into the future. €225k (50% of €450k) is repaid to the state.
    Last edited by John Cooper Clarke; 17th-October-2012 at 12:15.

  28. #22
    Moderator Balla Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Cooper Clarke View Post

    Debt forgiveness is fundamentally wrong.

    Moral Hazard is a cliche bandied about rather liberally these days. It's unempirical nonsense.
    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy

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  30. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Balla Boy View Post
    Moral Hazard is a cliche bandied about rather liberally these days. It's unempirical nonsense.
    Can you outline how you'd like to see debt forgiveness happen?
    It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

    Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

  31. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Balla Boy View Post
    Moral Hazard is a cliche bandied about rather liberally these days. It's unempirical nonsense.
    You've used it liberally in the past BB.

    p.s. I've edited my earlier post and removed the reference to it.
    Last edited by John Cooper Clarke; 17th-October-2012 at 12:20.

  32. #25
    Too many cracks appearing in this article for me.

    I'm all for looking after those who are in trouble - and we all know people who are struggling - genuinely struggling!

    However, when you read quotes like this:

    The mortgage is over the next 25 years and her husband is over 50, Jean wrote.

    How is this sensible? If they moved house 7 yrs ago, then the article implies that they took out a 30 yr mortgage when he was at least 45.

    The article doesn't mention things like a Tracker mortgage, and talks about interest rates 'only going one way' - well, not for those on a tracker - at least not in the foreseeable future! so did they take out a tracker? We're unlikely to find out, but if they did, would this be such a concern, or is it more hyperbole for a better story?

    A mortgage of €1400pm at 45+ is a hell of a mortgage - had they no equity from the previous house? Doing a simple calculation to find a repayment of €1400 today, indicates a mortgage of ca. €300K - I'm sure the figures 7 yrs ago were different in their favour.

    Sounds to me like they borrowed every cent they could for the house - a well-located, modest 4 bed. I wonder what that means?

    Finally, I'd love to be able to put a GRAND a month into my pension - but then my kids college fund would suffer...oh, wait...!
    Last edited by Blindsider.; 17th-October-2012 at 12:22.
    Trust is good; control is better. V I Lenin.

  33. #26
    Moral hazard went out the window when the Irish taxpayer was forced to bail out private banks and their debts.
    4 Feb 2011 - Gilmore on the General Election

    "Frankfurts way or Labours way."

    28 Feb 2012 - Gilmore on a yes vote for the fiscal treaty

    "A vote for economic stability and a vote for economic recovery."

  34. #27
    Moderator Balla Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyFantastic View Post
    Can you outline how you'd like to see debt forgiveness happen?
    The finance already channeled from the state to the finance providers should have offset their loans, rather than just being tipped into their balance sheet.

    Now that it's possibly too late for that, I'd have all people in mortgage distress in arbitration discussions with their lenders to readjust the loan repayments to affordable levels, leaving the outstanding amount payable from the value of the asset at the point of their death (presuming there's no sale).

    That is, effectively, debt forgiveness to all intents and purposes. We do it all the time - for countries, for businesses (what else is Limited status only guaranteed debt forgiveness for business owners?), for individuals through bankruptcy etc etc.

    Debt forgiveness is prevalent in our economic model, and has existed throughout human history. There's no evidence that I've seen that someone who is allowed to walk away from a bankrupt business is more likely to go setting up a series of failing ventures in the future, because most people are reasonably moral actors.

    Yet whenever we get into a discussion about individuals, the wall comes down and creditors start complaining about moral hazard.
    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy

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  36. #28
    Moderator Balla Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Cooper Clarke View Post
    You've used it liberally in the past BB.

    p.s. I've edited my earlier post and removed the reference to it.
    Fitzy is the Moral Hazard proponent around these parts, JCC. I've always considered it to be one law for the rich, one for the poor (or increasingly poor middle class).
    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy

  37. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Balla Boy View Post
    The finance already channeled from the state to the finance providers should have offset their loans, rather than just being tipped into their balance sheet.

    Now that it's possibly too late for that, I'd have all people in mortgage distress in arbitration discussions with their lenders to readjust the loan repayments to affordable levels, leaving the outstanding amount payable from the value of the asset at the point of their death (presuming there's no sale).

    That is, effectively, debt forgiveness to all intents and purposes. We do it all the time - for countries, for businesses (what else is Limited status only guaranteed debt forgiveness for business owners?), for individuals through bankruptcy etc etc.

    Debt forgiveness is prevalent in our economic model, and has existed throughout human history. There's no evidence that I've seen that someone who is allowed to walk away from a bankrupt business is more likely to go setting up a series of failing ventures in the future, because most people are reasonably moral actors.

    Yet whenever we get into a discussion about individuals, the wall comes down and creditors start complaining about moral hazard.
    That already is happening to some extent, but is it something the State should lead or the banks should lead?
    It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.

    Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win

  38. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Balla Boy View Post
    Fitzy is the Moral Hazard proponent around these parts, JCC. I've always considered it to be one law for the rich, one for the poor (or increasingly poor middle class).
    You are quite right. My apologies.

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