For a lad that didn't make it he has a fair few medals....Originally Posted by jeepers
He has only played for top clubs so while he might never have been first choice those clubs obviously thought he was a good enough squad player.
For a lad that didn't make it he has a fair few medals....
He has only played for top clubs so while he might never have been first choice those clubs obviously thought he was a good enough squad player.
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards - checkmate!" Zapp Brannigan
That's relative, surely. The guy's had a 13/14 year professional career playing fly half with Munster, Wasps, Tigers, Quins and London Irish. He has a handful of caps for his country.
He may never have emerged as one of the top fly halves in Europe, but I think that's a fairly respectable rugby career to be honest.
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
The suggestion that a player who starts as a centre in a B & I cup game one week should start at out half in a HEC game the following week appears a bit odd to me.
"Now, Say my name?"
"You're Heisenberg."
"You're Goddamn Right."
I think he has had a pretty decent career and fair play to him, but the suggestion that Munster were wrong to stick with ROG at outhalf is rubbish. Munster used him as a fullback in his 16 starts and perhaps if he stayed he could have stayed with Munster he could have been a top class one.
Anyone know where he is now?
Still at Leicester, I think. And yes - Munster definitely made the right choice. Given, though, that he's been a 2nd choice fly half for a fair amount of the time since leaving, I suspect that he's probably provided a better 2nd line FH than we've had for most of that time. Bar Warwick, anyway.
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
He is retired now- from pro rugby at any rate. There was a suggestion before of him moving into a school (in the Leicester area) to head up their sports department, and coach I presume. So this may well have materialised, I havent heard anything concrete since then, but I would say it is likely. Barry Everitt also did this when his playing days finished
Last edited by fullback15; 16th-October-2012 at 16:16.
One of many pieces clearly based on not knowing the situation. They didn't move him all over the place. He played IC (very, very well) for Wasps for a period where they had no other options there and got praise from McGeechan for it. He played OH for Quins, Leicester and Wasps regularly and did a decent job. As for he got chances at Munster. He never played a game at IC (a position Wasps showed he had real potential for), played little true first team rugby at OH and was used at FB for the reason that people seem to think the one letter is the only difference between the two positions. FB was the worst place he could have been put by us.
BTW Quins got relegated in his time, he missed a kick that ultimately made the difference and was out the door - partly because of that kick (for which he was scapegoated considering it takes more than one kick to put you at the point of relegation) and partly because of who they signed in. By the time he reached Leicester he'd played so little for so long he wasn't going to be first choice. He was always a cover player. It didn't help his time at Wasps coincided with the over-rated golden boy of English rugby coming through either.
My point anyway was that we didn't make best use of Staunton and lost another option that offered something different. We can't afford to do the same thing as this time, much as he is currently better than ROG, the alternative isn't going to be a top class international for the next decade and more. Oh and I never actually said we shouldn't have chosen ROG as first choice, I said we handled Staunton wrongly and paid the consequences.
Last edited by Evil Omer; 16th-October-2012 at 16:38.
\"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"
That indicates that Jeremy was happy to be backup 10 and happy to play elsewhere. That was not the case, he wanted to play at 10 and was not happy anywhere else,. He forged a nice career when he moved though.
From what I can see, he moved to quins and was starting 10 for his first season there (when they got relegated) and he moved to Wasps. He was first choice 10 there as well for his first season, then they started using Dave Walder, Chris Malone & Alex at flyhalf and Jeremy at 15 & 12, way before Cips came to Wasps and even at that, Cips played fullback as much as outhalf.
My understanding is that Staunton wanted to play 10 and wasn't happy filling in at 15 or more than likely 12 either. He had 2 seasons in England where he was first choice 10 and he didn't cement a position there. Quins & Wasps did exactly what Munster did and as I pointed out in a previous post, he was fairly young going to England to have been destroyed by Munster.
Some more on Staunton in today's IT
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...325412029.html
"If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards - checkmate!" Zapp Brannigan
Jackson was in a great place 6 months ago that was rapidly getting better.
Brian O'Brien, the manager of Munster in Staunton's time, said they destroyed his confidence by using him badly. If that's what a guy in the squad thinks (and he said it on national tv) then sin e, that's what happened. Learn from the mistake and don't repeat it with Hanrahan.
It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.
Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win
He could have been destroyed by throwing him into that Hcup final which he clearly wasn't ready for. Fairplay to him, he has come through it well and it may have been the making of him, but I still wouldn't say he was in a good place 6 months ago. Because of that he also missed out on the U20s world cup which would have been a more natural progression for him (which in hindsight might have been a good thing for Ireland as it allowed JJ to step up).
You need your top players to be able to overcome adversity - a lot of people would say that missing the HCup final kick against Northampton was the making of ROG (and how he doesn't let missing a kick now affect his confidence).
Maybe Jeepers, I don't know. I'm not sure I'd risk ruining a young guys confidence on the off chance it doesn't. It's a different era now anyway, there's a lot more supports for young players etc.
It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.
Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win
I agree with that. You either take adversity as a spur or it undermines you.
well looka
ROG is a bit of an oddity in that. He has a special place in the media
and plays off them a little like bod does. I played a season with him
in ucc, and his confidence was off the charts, personally and in rugby.
I don't mean that in bad way, but it was clearly his most noticeable
trait, and clearly flowed into how he played ball. There was a lot of
belief there, and still is.
Staunton - I never knew him, but his rise was partly down to the Gatland
policy of picking youth, as you see now in the wales side. It might not
have suited him as much as it might in a rugby mad country like wales
or nZ, where, in the 80s/90s at least, a top class player would be happy
to retire from internationals at 26, having been capped at 21.. Probably
burned out. This was very noticeable at that time with SH touring sides..
Their teams would always be younger, always be a few guys on the test side
with 3 caps, against an irish team where every player had 20 or 30, and was
well into his late 20s by and large.
Different culture.
Staunton's comments on the difference between playing midfield and
Playing 15. I always wished he'd had a try at 13. It can be similar to
10 in ways, depending on your game plan.
Last edited by mtcmolloy; 18th-October-2012 at 09:48.
He did alright, he's not the reason they lost that final.
Before that he'd been playing well for Ulster and he was official starter for them. He came back from the U20 6N and started getting serious gametime.
Missing the U20 World Cup wasn't because of the Heineken Cup, it was because Ulster said they needed him for September and pre-season. It would have been difficult to bring in a new coach and then not give him access to his outhalf, given the level of experience there.
There are already 3 players from this last group of U20s getting HC starts, impressive.
I don't think starting Jackson in the HEC final has done him any long term harm either. He had a bit of a 'mare but he has moved on from that disappointment and been working like a dog to improve every part of his game that he can; racking up huge extra hours practising his place kicking and line kicking in particular which I think is starting to show some rewards. I think that is perhaps the difference between a top professional player and a player content to be a professional.
The issue for me with Hanrahan is that he should have, IMO, been straight into the Munster team on the back of a fantastic JWC where he along with Henderson and Farrell were the outstanding players IMO. I know with Ulster that Henderson has been earmarked for great things and has pretty much his season planned out in relation to games he'll be started in, what is expected off him etc. Ironically he wasn't meant to feature against Castres but injuries forced the coaches hand and he took to it like a duck to water. Hanrahan showed up better in the JWC than Jackson in the 6N IMO but look where both are now-B&I Cup and HEC. The problem is that it is now very difficult, nearly impossible, to throw him into the mix now because he hasn't veen given the opportunity to play in the opening rounds of the Rabo which is madness with a talent like that.
Good to see Robbie Henshaw, who is just out of school, in year 1 of the academy and hasn't yet played for Ireland U20s, playing in the HEC with Connacht. He is playing very well too. If a player is good enough theres no reason to hold them back.
Hanrahan could have been brought in, but there are long term issues too. Maybe he'd benefit more from a proper pre-season and a slightly more gently step up, especially if there were specifics to be worked on. He could still be playing next week.
For someone in the same age bracket he has a different experience profile. Jackson has now started games over 3 different seasons, Hanrahan has a single 6m appearance this season.
There are two other issues that might delay Hanrahan a little: Munster have their own outhalf drama taking place higher up the depth chart with important consequences for the team. The other issue is that Hanrahan is a somewhat different style player to Jackson, he's more versatile and somewhat less structured. Sometimes players who fit into a single position better can progress a little quicker (sometimes it's the other way around). JJ is an exciting player, but he has some rough edges and I'm still not convinced that his future is at outhalf.
Maybe that's not the case, but it should be looked at. For one thing Ireland and Munster have more long term need for a top class 12 than they do at outhalf.
From my own point of view Munster have a chance to establishing Hanrahan as a first teamer from the age of 20 be that at 10 or 12. Instead they went with a 37 year old and a 25 year old who has struggled to fulfill his underage potential due, in part, to a poor career choice in leaving Connacht where he would have been a comfortable first choice 10. I am aware of hindsight and all that though.
I'd say you are also over-egging Jackson's 'experience' he made the odd sporadic appearance for Ulster across two seasons and then after the QF when the management realised beyond all reasonable doubt Humphreys was a turnstile Ulster just threw him in because he could tackle and pass, no other function was asked or required of him.
I think that in Ireland we are particularly reluctant to throw young guys in and let them swim. Had Hanrahan been from the SH I have little doubt he'd have been playing S14 from te start of the new season and not languishing with the seconds. Inside Downey or outside Keatley/O'Gara during the opening Rabo games would have been a perfect opportunity to see how he'd progressed since June but that opportunity has not been afforded to him and that is the bottom line.
Ahhh now,he's ONLY 35 RHH
Otaga Daily Times 2/5/2012
Taz-Where did you get that information as I have seen nowhere that he(Penney) was ruled out?
Editor - The writer stands by the Penney information.
Otaga Daily Times 3/5/2012
Editor-- This article originally said Rob Penney had missed out on the Munster coaching job. That information was incorrect.
Really? Not sure where I plucked that 37 from in that case.Ahhh now,he's ONLY 35 RHH
Your arse?
When things go wrong, blame McGahan
Ronk, Hanrahan is playing for UL Bohs, and was on the team that earned promotion to Div 1a. In a recent interview he says he really enjoys playing for them because he feels its his team and he has freedom to express himself.
As for the comments about SH players being fastracked more quickly. A good case study is Tyler Bleyendaal, an outhalf, who captained the Baby Blacks to the Junior World Cup in 2010 and was also a nominee for Jun. Player of the Year. Rob Penney was his coach with Canterbury/Crusaders.
His first start for Canterbury in the ITM Cup was exactly 13 months after winning the Junior World Cup.
This is his history with the Crusaders (Feb. 2012) - 2 years after the JWC.
He has got 3 Super Rugby starts to date and 2 sub appearances 2 years after captaining the Baby Blacks to a Junior World cup. Incidentally, Julian Savea was Inter. Player of the year in 2010.Last year Tyler Bleyendaal's ride on rugby's magic carpet hit a dirty black cloud.
At just 20 – before he had even represented Canterbury – the first five-eighth was signed-up for the Crusaders.
Although All Blacks superstar Dan Carter was expected to hog the playmaker's job, there were predictions journeyman Matt Berquist and Bleyendaal would lock antlers in the scrap to be his deputy.
Instead, it proved to be a no-contest and Bleyendaal was the loser.
He never even got near the No10 jersey; the closest was when he suited-up as a reserve for the opening round match against the Blues.
The lowest point came when the Crusaders were decimated by injuries during their two-match trip to South Africa in May; Bleyendaal had been omitted from the original touring side but when coach Todd Blackadder fired back an SOS for reinforcements he hoped for a call-up.
But Blackadder recruited wider training group player Tom Taylor, who could also cover second-five, instead.
"It was frustrating – especially when there were heaps of injuries over in South Africa and there were plenty of positions open," Bleyendaal admitted. "It was frustrating, for sure, but there was not much I could do about it."
This may come as a shock to some but a bunch of people on the internet suggesting a young player gets gametime is about as useful as a turd in a swimming pool.
p.s. Penney has a reputation for giving youth a chance. For whatever reason he hasn't given JJH a start yet. I've no doubt he'll get his shot when the time is right.
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