Penney's comments

[JoeyFantastic]

From Thornley in today's Times.

While Penney admitted it was “unbelievable” that Munster didn’t kick more at times, he commented: “It’s really interesting everyone talks about this grand plan of using width. All we want to do is use space. There was nothing wrong with what we did today. We played some rugby. I think we got on the rough end of some decisions and in tight matches they’re costly. The boys’ ability to use space won’t be compromised through some inability to finish at this point because it’s taking us in a good direction. It’s a direction that’s going to be challenging as we move forward.”

Interesting distinction between space and width. I honestly don't think either halfback will want to see the video in terms of game management which I presume is what Penney is alluding to regarding kicking but it doesn't sound like the passing game is going to be taken off the table either.

After the first 20 mins, did we really create anything to finish?

[DonL]

You're right Joey, I don't think we did create anything to finish. I've been thinking about this 'using space' and 'using width' strategy being banded about and have been somewhat surprised about peoples, including the media, reaction to this - how it's going to be the new way Munster will play, how this is what's needed as we haven't done it in the past etc. But I thought we've been trying this for years have we not? Tony M was trying to move it in that direction and there were many times last year and previous seasons where we were running it from anywhere. While maybe this year (hopefully) we will actually do it right, it's nothing new to this Munster team is it?

The important thing here is the start of Penney's quotes above where he states that it was unbelievable that we didn't kick more - it's our game management that has also been very poor the past few years. Knowing when to kick and when to run. Saturday was played in horrible conditions, and most teams would have kicked when in their own half never mind 22. Why didn't we play what was in front of us (conditions and team)? Also, why didn't Penney get the instructions down to the team to play a more kicking game? Or maybe he did but the players couldn't execute it?

We seem to be a team in limbo for the past few seasons, where players are unsure of what they have to do. It looked like this has not changed so far this season going by last weekend. The players looked a bit clueless at times and that has been the case for quite some time now

[Angus Axe]

I think some of that decision making has to happen on the pitch and come from the key leaders on the pitch. Yes you have a game plan, but if the conditions dictate, then you change accordingly and that a lot of the times comes from players reading the game and playing accordingly. Looks like we've lost a bit of the reading the game cuteness we had. Maybe that's down to a lot of the experience we've lost over the last few seasons, but the likes of ROG, POC, Howlett should be stepping up here.

[JoeyFantastic]

You're right Joey, I don't think we did create anything to finish. I've been thinking about this 'using space' and 'using width' strategy being banded about and have been somewhat surprised about peoples, including the media, reaction to this - how it's going to be the new way Munster will play, how this is what's needed as we haven't done it in the past etc. But I thought we've been trying this for years have we not? Tony M was trying to move it in that direction and there were many times last year and previous seasons where we were running it from anywhere. While maybe this year (hopefully) we will actually do it right, it's nothing new to this Munster team is it?

The important thing here is the start of Penney's quotes above where he states that it was unbelievable that we didn't kick more - it's our game management that has also been very poor the past few years. Knowing when to kick and when to run. Saturday was played in horrible conditions, and most teams would have kicked when in their own half never mind 22. Why didn't we play what was in front of us (conditions and team)? Also, why didn't Penney get the instructions down to the team to play a more kicking game? Or maybe he did but the players couldn't execute it?

We seem to be a team in limbo for the past few seasons, where players are unsure of what they have to do. It looked like this has not changed so far this season going by last weekend. The players looked a bit clueless at times and that has been the case for quite some time now

Thought Keatley kicked poorly tbh, when he did kick, but these issues go way beyond the outhalf. A good plan we can execute is better than a great plan we can't.

There is a serious "cop on" deficit in this team and there has been for an age. When was the last time the team outsmarted the opposition in a big game? On some level it's the coaches fault but the players on the pitch have to take responsibility.

[rathbaner]

Funny thing is we were set up to kick - with ROG, Zebo and Keats all on the pitch.

[overthehillprop]

I wonder if its a case that Penneys new style is to play heads up rugby - play whats in front of you, gettign players to think. Is this a huge change to set piece to set piece, side line to side play, one out pods off slow ball. Is it that the players were over coached and they will take time to adapt?

[dropkick]

I wonder if its a case that Penneys new style is to play heads up rugby - play whats in front of you, gettign players to think. Is this a huge change to set piece to set piece, side line to side play, one out pods off slow ball. Is it that the players were over coached and they will take time to adapt?

McGahans style was to tell the players what to do in every situation. It was very robotic and pre planned and the opposition soon copped on to it. Penneys style is all about playing heads up rugby and getting the players to react to different situations. Its probably more about coaching individuals instead of giving a gameplan to individuals. So yes I think they were over coached under McGahan.

Its going to take a while for the players to adapt to Penneys new style. They can't just do things they'll have to learn to think more. Look at the way the Crusaders play, it looks very fluid. They've been coached to play a certain way for years, its too much to expect things to change this fast in Munster.

The good start to the season didn't help either by getting peoples hopes up. The last 3 weeks have shown that theres plenty of improving to do but the players will no doubt learn from it.

[Evil Omer]

Thought Keatley kicked poorly tbh, when he did kick, but these issues go way beyond the outhalf. A good plan we can execute is better than a great plan we can't.

There is a serious "cop on" deficit in this team and there has been for an age. When was the last time the team outsmarted the opposition in a big game? On some level it's the coaches fault but the players on the pitch have to take responsibility.

On reconsidering yesterday I'm not sure Keatley kicked that poorly, the kicks were landing in field and between the 2 lines of defence, which was good tactics considering our lineout wasn't doing anything against theirs. The problem for me was more when we ran too many shipped it on one rather than driving it up as we needed. If we were going to run we needed to be decisive not just shovelling.

[Daithi]

re Penney: Great to see that he's sticking to his theme of creating and exploiting space. Even if Munster's players at times revert to sub par skill levels, this philosophy is the way to play the game IMHO. On Saturday the conditions did not lend themselves to seeking to create and use space from all over the park and maybe they were caught a bit by trying to be too ambitious (rog) & just downright stupid (Murray) at times, but overall I wouldn't fault the approach.

re Keatley: He's a very good player, but he needs to really work on his kicking: the length, variety and kick option taking as well as consistency of execution of things like cross kicks needs to improve 100%. He should take a look at Rog's game and try to replicate his kicking game. Until he hits the requisite levels Munster should use Zebo as defensive kicking 10 as they will get superior distance, hang time and consistency than they will from Keatley who is below the requisite level at from hand kicking skills at the mo IMHO.

[rathbaner]

[QUOTE=JoeyFantastic;1123346]Interesting distinction between space and width. /QUOTE]

The Final frontier.

[manofmunster]

You can make all the distinctions you like ... the fact is that the game plan we tried to execute at the weekend took no account of the dreadful weather conditions the match was played in.

The other inescapable truth at the moment is this: right now we have a distinctly mediocre pack of forwards. You simply cannot lose players of the quality of Fla, Wally, Quinny, Bull (particularly at lineout) in the space of a year and expect to replace them without consequence. Our pack is underpowered and the units within it are not functioning. That'll take time to fix. A lot of time.

[Evil Omer]

You can make all the distinctions you like ... the fact is that the game plan we tried to execute at the weekend took no account of the dreadful weather conditions the match was played in.

The other inescapable truth at the moment is this: right now we have a distinctly mediocre pack of forwards. You simply cannot lose players of the quality of Fla, Wally, Quinny, Bull (particularly at lineout) in the space of a year and expect to replace them without consequence. Our pack is underpowered and the units within it are not functioning. That'll take time to fix. A lot of time.

Thing is I think we've the kind of pack you can win HECs with but we're out of kilter in each bit. We've some top players, POC, Botha, Ryan but none is fully firing, some decent HEC squad level guys, Varley, WDP, Holland but those guys are just below real international level so can't make up the lack of form from the first block and some good youngsters POM, Dougall, Sherry, Kilcoyne, Butler, DOC but those guys are all at the start of their journeys and year or two away from their best. When you look at that pack it's a couple of years away from being HEC contenders and probably needs the likes of Nagle/Foley/Hayes to come through as well. The good news is most of our backs are going to be good to go still in a couple of years so we could be on the up BUT it will take experience and games to get us there. Most of all it will take us time.

[The Last Stand]

Give them time. Things will get better. Allez les rouges.

[HurlerOnDeDitch]

The distinction between width and space is fine, but we still need to create the space to attack.

For 20 minutes on Saturday we did that. We played at pace, ran at angles, kicked to space and chased the kicks with real intent. There was great variety to our play and we looked great.

For some reason we then completely lost it. Suddenly we were trying chips over the top inside our own 22, trying to pass straight from 10 to our wingers etc.

I don't know what changed but we seemed to lose confidence in what we were doing. We were trying to go wide but it was all happening 10 yards behind the gain line! No hard running, no variety, no angles. We looked like a team afraid to take a risk, then when we did it was the wrong one!!

We no longer have a python pack who can seriously dominate good teams so we have to play with a pace and ferocity that others struggle to match. We have seen glimpses so far...

We have a long way to go, but the way we played in the first 20 shows what we are capable of. Hopefully that is the future.

[gavindillon]

We no longer have a python pack who can seriously dominate good teams so we have to play with a pace and ferocity that others struggle to match. We have seen glimpses so far...

We have a long way to go, but the way we played in the first 20 shows what we are capable of. Hopefully that is the future.

Agreed, with the hope that it's our immediate future! Passing with pace and ferocity. Bring it on!

[Sketchy]

The distinction between width and space is fine, but we still need to create the space to attack.

For 20 minutes on Saturday we did that. We played at pace, ran at angles, kicked to space and chased the kicks with real intent. There was great variety to our play and we looked great.

For some reason we then completely lost it. Suddenly we were trying chips over the top inside our own 22, trying to pass straight from 10 to our wingers etc.

I don't know what changed but we seemed to lose confidence in what we were doing. We were trying to go wide but it was all happening 10 yards behind the gain line! No hard running, no variety, no angles. We looked like a team afraid to take a risk, then when we did it was the wrong one!!

We no longer have a python pack who can seriously dominate good teams so we have to play with a pace and ferocity that others struggle to match. We have seen glimpses so far...

We have a long way to go, but the way we played in the first 20 shows what we are capable of. Hopefully that is the future.

Ya, i think that's what happens when you have a new style that is quite different to anything we had before. Teaching Irish players used to a highly technical game to play "heads up" rugby will certainly not happen over night. Everyone needs to be in tune from 1 to 15, then from 16 to 23 when needed. We started to look good early in the season because the players that were selected were beginning to become comfortable with the new style. They all had about 6 games on the trot when you include the pre-season games. Then we had the Irish players coming back into the squad, and unfortunately that coincided with an incredibly difficult run of away games. We lost our early momentum and confidence against the Ospreys and Leinster, and then in Paris we became very one dimensional, and obvious. We tried to play the expansive game in very tough conditions, but we pretty much churned out the same move again and again and again. The problem with our squad in Paris is that about half of them were not comfortable with the gameplan and as a result we churned out the same plays ad nauseum. No incision from the wingers coming in from blind or back against the angle out wide. It became predictable, flat and easy to defend.

ROG does not seem capable of implementing the gameplan Penney wants, which is a worry. ROG's gameplan of kicking to the corners is very effective with a big dominant pack who will hassle their lineout. But as we saw with Racing, despite the rain, they had an easy ride in the lineout, rendering ROG's great work obsolete. In that respect Foley needs to get his finger out. We had 4 lads capable of being lifted the other day and I don't recall one steal. It's times like this you realise how amazing a lifter John Hayes was. Having two very different gameplans is definitely not what Penney envisaged when he took the job. It creates confusion, when the whole point of his gameplan is cohesion. Also, Keatley who was the in form 10 was cast aside when ROG came back despite ROG's obvious dip in form. Keatley only got a handful of minutes at 10 leading up to the Racing game, which I thought was very unfair. (Is it a Kidney hand in the Cookie jar? Who knows.) Couple that with those around him not used to the gameplan, a few unfortunate injuries, and you suddenly realise how disjointed a preparation we had for this game.

I do get the feeling though that with time this team could do us proud. It will take time though. We can just hope to get through Edinburgh with a confidence building win, or dare I say it, winning BP. Then we have a decent run of "easier" games to get our injured players back, CJ, and our internationals up to speed with what Penney envisages. We should have time to get things to the next level and give the Sarries a serious run for their money before Christmas.

[gavindillon]

Good post Sketchy. Unfortnately the only thing I'd add is that the Autumn Internationals are right in the middle of where we could be gelling nicely as a team, which will mean that just as some of our players are back and up to speed (POC, Zebo, POM, DR, CM and hopefully some more) they'll be whisked off again. If we get over the Edinburgh in good nick then I'd be more than confident of the team kicking ass against the Sarries. Unfortunately November will be a speed bump there. Still, regular gametime etc should mean that we gel a little faster when the Internationals get back. Alot of them look rusty still after a long enforced break. Get those lads on a pitch, be it against Zebre in the Rabo or the Saffers at Lansdowne a few weeks later.

On which brief point (going a little off topic), given that Leinster will field a number of the starting XV, and Ulster a good few more, I hope to see a good few Munster lads get a run in green at home against Fiji in TP for the Irish 'select XV'.

[rathbaner]

The other inescapable truth at the moment is this: right now we have a distinctly mediocre pack of forwards. You simply cannot lose players of the quality of Fla, Wally, Quinny, Bull (particularly at lineout) in the space of a year and expect to replace them without consequence. Our pack is underpowered

That's the heart of it IMHO. But Donncha Ryan, O'Mahony and Coughlan were out of this world as a back row against saints when we hammered them. So there's still hope this season if we can get them back and we have Niall Ronan and Stander to step up too.

[barleys chinos]

Coughlans impact is underestimated,he has an odd off day but who doesnt.He imo is as clever a player as foley.
Personally i hope the B/R finds good form and CJ Stander has to fight for a game.

[sewa]

I wouldnt judge Keats at 10 on last weekend. He was set up and practising to play 15 all week. Very difficult to switch mid game

[manofmunster]

That's the heart of it IMHO. But Donncha Ryan, O'Mahony and Coughlan were out of this world as a back row against saints when we hammered them. So there's still hope this season if we can get them back and we have Niall Ronan and Stander to step up too.

I'm optimistic our pack can improve as the season progresses. As EO says above - we've a lot of quality players and plenty of up and coming talent. Killer/Beta/POM/Sherry/Butler/Dougall could be the foundations of a serious forward pack for years to come. POC will be a huge asset (as always) once he returns to full match fitness. Coughlan to return, stander to come in ... we could have a pack to be reckoned with in the new year.

BJ has to stay fit ... Archer doesn't have it for me ... not sure he'll ever be a real option at THP. Likewise Varley. He a solid player and a useful scrummager but, his throwing is abysmal. No team can hope to win anything with a liability throwing into the lineout. Sherry could be a real find at hooker. His throwing is generally pretty good and, with further refinement, could one day approach Fla's metronomic accuracy. He's lively round the park too. The thing is that the units, particularly BR and lineout need time to gel and find that instinctive fluidity which just can't be coached.

[Cill na Martra]

Penney needs to be more ruthless. Loved the way he dumped TOD and dropped Deasy off the HEC squad. These guys are never going to make it. Same thing needs to be done with Stringer, Williams, Varley and Archer. Ryan was having a stormer over in LI, and now he is behind Mushy2.0? Joke. I'd have Duncan Casey and Sheridan or Haugh on the bench on Sunday, along with JJ. I'd also drop Dougie for LOD. His pace is completely shot. How many times in Paris did he catch a ball in miles of space, but instead of backing himself and running it back, he threw a looping pass back inside.

[barleys chinos]

Will BJBotha be finished with munster at the end of this season?
With these new rules munster cant sign him or another NIQ prop?
So this means Archer/cotter/condon need as much time as possible this year win lose or draw and just use BJB in the H/C.

[barleys chinos]

Penney needs to be more ruthless. Loved the way he dumped TOD and dropped Deasy off the HEC squad. These guys are never going to make it. Same thing needs to be done with Stringer, Williams, Varley and Archer. Ryan was having a stormer over in LI, and now he is behind Mushy2.0? Joke. I'd have Duncan Casey and Sheridan or Haugh on the bench on Sunday, along with JJ. I'd also drop Dougie for LOD. His pace is completely shot. How many times in Paris did he catch a ball in miles of space, but instead of backing himself and running it back, he threw a looping pass back inside.

You are a real glass half empty kinda chap.

[Cowboy]

Penney needs to be more ruthless. Loved the way he dumped TOD and dropped Deasy off the HEC squad. These guys are never going to make it. Same thing needs to be done with Stringer, Williams, Varley and Archer. Ryan was having a stormer over in LI, and now he is behind Mushy2.0? Joke. I'd have Duncan Casey and Sheridan or Haugh on the bench on Sunday, along with JJ. I'd also drop Dougie for LOD. His pace is completely shot. How many times in Paris did he catch a ball in miles of space, but instead of backing himself and running it back, he threw a looping pass back inside.

The more I read you the more I think you're Jandek

[Cill na Martra]

Will BJBotha be finished with munster at the end of this season?
With these new rules munster cant sign him or another NIQ prop?
So this means Archer/cotter/condon need as much time as possible this year win lose or draw and just use BJB in the H/C.

We don't need BJB. He offers little outside scrummaging, more than WDP, but that's not saying much. We need to start backing class players like JRyan, instead of Mushy2.0 - the main reason we lost to Os. Cotter and Cronin look good prospects. Condon is barely AIL/pub standard.

[Cill na Martra]

The more I read you the more I think you're Jandek

I'm not sure I should take that as a complement.

[bugler]

Jandek was much more fun.

[barleys chinos]

We don't need BJB. He offers little outside scrummaging, more than WDP, but that's not saying much. We need to start backing class players like JRyan, instead of Mushy2.0 - the main reason we lost to Os. Cotter and Cronin look good prospects. Condon is barely AIL/pub standard.

I actually really enjoy AIL/pub Rugby.As do many thousands of others.Ill organize a trip to a local team training session for you just to let you see that there is very little difference in training and definitely no difference in commitment between clubs and munster
It stood well to Coughlan,POC,Murray,ROG,Stringer etc etc.

[Cill na Martra]

I actually really enjoy AIL/pub Rugby.As do many thousands of others.Ill organize a trip to a local team training session for you just to let you see that there is very little difference in training and definitely no difference in commitment between clubs and munster
It stood well to Coughlan,POC,Murray,ROG,Stringer etc etc.

Murray is an academy product. ROG and Strings were schools products, unless you're wish to claim them on behalf of Cork Con! POC played club rugby when it was still relevant. The only thing good about club rugby are the various club bars in Thomond Park.