HEC - What we learned this weekend...

[Balla Boy]

Some general thoughts from this weekend, in no particular order:


Ulster have it in them to be the leading Irish province this year. Munster are rebuilding, Leinster (imo) on a downward curve. Ulster have quality throughout, and Bowe gives them a marked edge that they lacked previously.

Sarries looked a lot better than I think they actually are against Edinburgh. Be interesting to see what sort of Embra outfit shows up at Thomond next weekend.

Tolouse and Toulon both looked very good. If Toulon can keep up the form they showed last night, they'll challenge strongly.

Too early to be picking winners, but I'm leaning broadly towards the French.

[Sketchy]

Some general thoughts from this weekend, in no particular order:


Ulster have it in them to be the leading Irish province this year. Munster are rebuilding, Leinster (imo) on a downward curve. Ulster have quality throughout, and Bowe gives them a marked edge that they lacked previously.

Sarries looked a lot better than I think they actually are against Edinburgh. Be interesting to see what sort of Embra outfit shows up at Thomond next weekend.

Tolouse and Toulon both looked very good. If Toulon can keep up the form they showed last night, they'll challenge strongly.

Too early to be picking winners, but I'm leaning broadly towards the French.

Danny Cipriani when not 100% focused on being an absolute t*sser is a seriously talented flyhalf. See the Sale comeback against the Blues? All down to the pretty boy being sprung from the bench!!!

[Balla Boy]

Didn't see that game - was watching Northampton vs Glasgow and missed the highlights too. I take it he was on form?

[Sketchy]

Didn't see that game - was watching Northampton vs Glasgow and missed the highlights too. I take it he was on form?

He was on fire. He single handedly turned a 30 - 12 deficit to a Sale victory. Made and scored a cracking try, then made another two. It's a shame he seems so disinterested in putting all his focus into being the best, as he certainly has the talent to be up there. Cuthbert got a first half hat-trick that had the Blues purring. Hard man to take down.

[bazzyg]

I'd like to see the refs clamp down on the tackler not releasing, too many of the games had players not releasing and ball being turned over. Clancy and Nigel were tough on it and the games were better for it, a few matches were a lottery as the refs were indecisive.

For me Ulster 1st half was best rugby of the weekend and Quins/Biar was a good battle to watch.

[Boo-boo]

I learned a long time ago that if the pool groups were that easy to work out there would be no neeed of a Heineken Cup. It is never over until it is over no matter how the others look.

[Balla Boy]

I'd like to see the refs clamp down on the tackler not releasing, too many of the games had players not releasing and ball being turned over. Clancy and Nigel were tough on it and the games were better for it, a few matches were a lottery as the refs were indecisive.

For me Ulster 1st half was best rugby of the weekend and Quins/Biar was a good battle to watch.

Agreed. The moment when Armitage got utterly snotted against Montpellier was diminished for me by the tackler attempting to mount him while grabbing for the ball and it being ignored by the referee.

My understanding of "on your feet" has always been that you should be in a position to wholly support your own body weight, but that seems to be completely ignored for some vague notion that studs being in contact with the ground is sufficient.

[Old Dog]

That a disorganised group of professional rugby players collectively called Zebre, that has never won a single match, was allowed to participate in Europe's so-called premier rugby tournament, while established European Giants like Wasps and Stade Francais that between them have appeared in 4 HEC Finals in the past decade (winning two), were obliged to play in the Amlin Cup. (I could have added Brive La Galliard, but most of ye are too young to remember the ERC pre-2000)

Risible.

[Balla Boy]

That a disorganised group of professional rugby players collectively called Zebre, that has never won a single match, was allowed to participate in Europe's so-called premier rugby tournament, while established European Giants like Wasps and Stade Francais that between them have appeared in 4 HEC Finals in the past decade (winning two), were obliged to play in the Amlin Cup. (I could have added Brive La Galliard, but most of ye are too young to remember the ERC pre-2000)

Risible.

Interesting view, OD, but I'd raise a couple of counters. Firstly, all of Wasps, Stade and Brive have spent the last couple of years doing a fair impression of a disorganised group of professional rugby players. Wasps, in particular, are fortunate to be playing in the Premiership, let alone the Amlin.

Secondly, it's not all that unusual to have such great disparity. If you use wendyball as a comparator, for instance, you've Established European Giants (c) like Liverpool locked out of a competition that Shamrock Rovers played in.

I think it's arguable that the growth in competitiveness of Treviso over a number of seasons is testament to the efficacy of the policy.

[Old Dog]

Don't know whether to laugh, cry or top myself at that response, so I'm just going to ignore it.

[Balla Boy]

Don't know whether to laugh, cry or top myself at that response, so I'm just going to ignore it.

Do. I couldn't live with the guilt if I made you laugh.





(that was a joke, btw, before anyone cites me on the internet bullying thread in BlaBla).

[99_oK?]

Not only do I remember Brive, I can recall how their pacy backs took a sluggish Tigers apart in the old Cardiff Arms Park. And it was a subdued train journey back (was with some Tiggers and other friends.......).

But that was nearly a lifetime ago and they had good French internationals in the side. Are they not playing in Div 2 these days?

[Hugonaut]

Toulon will be very difficult to beat with the squad that Boudjellal has assembled: they're Man City-esque in terms of depth.

Giteau, Mermoz, Bastareaud in the centre; Wilko, Michalak, Tillous-Borde and Durand at halfback; Fernandez-Lobbe, van Niekirk, Masoe and Armitage in the backrow [the latter two have been Midi-Olympique's Player of the Top 14 in each of the last two seasons]; Bakkies, Simon Shaw and soon Danie Roussow in the second row; and Carl Hayman, Gethin Jenkins and Ted Sheridan in the front row.

Armitage Snr is a royal prick who deserved every wallop he collects [early, on-time or late], but when he's in good form he's a very dangerous attacking fullback.

Obviously not a single one of those players is a Toulon product – and only five of the 18 mentioned by name are even eligible to play for France – but that's not particularly relevant to how difficult an opponent they'll be in the HEC.

[Balla Boy]

Not only do I remember Brive, I can recall how their pacy backs took a sluggish Tigers apart in the old Cardiff Arms Park. And it was a subdued train journey back (was with some Tiggers and other friends.......).

But that was nearly a lifetime ago and they had good French internationals in the side. Are they not playing in Div 2 these days?

Christophe Lamaison. A centre who just happened to pull one of the greatest Fly Half performances I've ever seen out of his back pocket vs the ABs at Twickenham.

[99_oK?]

Christophe Lamaison. A centre who just happened to pull one of the greatest Fly Half performances I've ever seen out of his back pocket vs the ABs at Twickenham.

Remember that game too; Olivier Magne was in his prime that day and ABs were given a lesson in aggressive b-row play. Pity they couldn't repeat the performance in the final.

[The Outlaw]

Interesting view, OD, but I'd raise a couple of counters. Firstly, all of Wasps, Stade and Brive have spent the last couple of years doing a fair impression of a disorganised group of professional rugby players. Wasps, in particular, are fortunate to be playing in the Premiership, let alone the Amlin.

Secondly, it's not all that unusual to have such great disparity. If you use wendyball as a comparator, for instance, you've Established European Giants (c) like Liverpool locked out of a competition that Shamrock Rovers played in.

I think it's arguable that the growth in competitiveness of Treviso over a number of seasons is testament to the efficacy of the policy.

Cant be called an elite competition then so. I include my own province in that assessment as well.

When you look at Edinburgh getting smashed 45-0 at home you do wonder whether keeping them in the HEC is actually improving them or is just a get out of jail card at the end of season. If anything they are worse then were last year when they miraculously made the HEC semis.

[The Outlaw]

Toulon will be very difficult to beat with the squad that Boudjellal has assembled: they're Man City-esque in terms of depth.

Giteau, Mermoz, Bastareaud in the centre; Wilko, Michalak, Tillous-Borde and Durand at halfback; Fernandez-Lobbe, van Niekirk, Masoe and Armitage in the backrow [the latter two have been Midi-Olympique's Player of the Top 14 in each of the last two seasons]; Bakkies, Simon Shaw and soon Danie Roussow in the second row; and Carl Hayman, Gethin Jenkins and Ted Sheridan in the front row.

Armitage Snr is a royal prick who deserved every wallop he collects [early, on-time or late], but when he's in good form he's a very dangerous attacking fullback.

Obviously not a single one of those players is a Toulon product – and only five of the 18 mentioned by name are even eligible to play for France – but that's not particularly relevant to how difficult an opponent they'll be in the HEC.

Should be a Clermont v Toulon final if they dont play each other. The destiny of the tournament is in their hands in my view through sheer force of money and the accumulation of internationals in their squad.

[Valencia]

Magne was a super player altogether

[Balla Boy]

Cant be called an elite competition then so. I include my own province in that assessment as well.

When you look at Edinburgh getting smashed 45-0 at home you do wonder whether keeping them in the HEC is actually improving them or is just a get out of jail card at the end of season. If anything they are worse then were last year when they miraculously made the HEC semis.

It's elite in the sense that it brings together the best that each of the unions has to offer.

But I'd agree on one level - it's not simply a competition for the very best teams in Europe. I think it's all the better for it.

The financial benefit to the Italian and Scots RFUs must be helping at some level, you'd hope.

We can't talk seriously about the growth of the professional game and then reinforce the status quo by making the most lucrative competitions inaccessible.

[JoeyFantastic]

We should hold off on judging Scottish teams until we've played Edinburgh and Ulster have played Glasgow.

The standard of Italian teams seems to be improving, Treviso aren't a walk over at any rate and their national side beat France in the 6 nations more recently than we have.

[The Outlaw]

We should hold off on judging Scottish teams until we've played Edinburgh and Ulster have played Glasgow.

The standard of Italian teams seems to be improving, Treviso aren't a walk over at any rate and their national side beat France in the 6 nations more recently than we have.

Treviso have a lot more money behind them then most. Its about time they were competitive

[RED 49]

as ever getting home quarters and semis will go a long way towards winning. toulon will probably top their group and get home advantage. if both clermont and leinster get out ofbtheir group i would expect to see both in the semis. so from first weekend i see clermont, toulon ulster and quins being in semis

[Chrizzzie]

I learned a few new songs at Corrigan's in Paris

[Turkish Fez!]

Clermont were good but please do not pay to much attention to the scoreline against the Scarlets. It did not do us justice having played 55 minutes with 14 men. Until the red card the boys were really fronting up to the Clermont machine. It did help that there was not one scrum for the first 31 minutes. :-)
We may have picked up an injuries but I am quietly confident about our home game against Leinster. I am not stupid to think that they are not a good side but IMO Brad Thorne made the difference of them being very good to excellent last season.
Have to say I have been impressed with Harlequins development. They play a good brand and an exiting crop of young English players alot of which have come through their academy which should be applauded. Nick Evans injury is a major blow if its serious.

[Christy]

I hope Kidney has learnt Marshall is the on form Irish SH and without doubt should be involved in the AI's.

[fitzy73]

We've learned a lot, but I absolutely guarantee that future rounds will have results where form books are ripped to shreds. Injuries, Autumn internationals, domestic league commitments all change the dynamics.

It's way too early to be calling finalists at this stage. You'd have been laughed off the forum this time last year to suggest Embra would make a semi and Ulster the final.

Having said that, its obviously nailed on that Leinster won't make it out of their group, while we will have a Lazarus like resurrection to top our pool.

[PEATB0G]

Not only do I remember Brive, I can recall how their pacy backs took a sluggish Tigers apart in the old Cardiff Arms Park. And it was a subdued train journey back (was with some Tiggers and other friends.......).

Gregori Kakala was a monster in the back row that i remember, an eastern European, later went to Cardiff i think.
Sebastian Carat was their main speedster in the back three, iirc.
Was it Carbonneau, a scrum half cum centre, that played with them and Toulouse and was the first man to win two HEC medals?

Christophe Lamaison. A centre who just happened to pull one of the greatest Fly Half performances I've ever seen out of his back pocket vs the ABs at Twickenham.

Didn't he get a 'full house' that day?

[Old Dog]

.............. it's obviously nailed on that Leinster won't make it out of their group, while we will have a Lazarus like resurrection to top our pool.

The Amlin Cup final is in the RDS next May; it's a no-brainer: Leinster V Stade Francais Paris - Felipé V Sexton.

I'll be there!

[Drick]

what I learned this weekend was that Paris is a hugely expensive city, & having a view of a graveyard from your hotel room is abit freaky. I also learned that the 10 of diamonds is the one card to rule them all.

Also, this post has 0% Steve.

[Old Dog]

I hope Kidney has learnt Marshall is the on form Irish SH and without doubt should be involved in the AI's.

He will be - those tackle bags don't hold themselves and someone has to collect the tracksuits after the anthems are over.