Lets take a Step back

[Valencia]

Nice post Joe. One small correction 2007 we lost to Llanelli Scarlets in Stradey. I know because I was there & can't forget what was a whole evening of whoop ass for Munster

[Valencia]

& those horrible grey jerseys

[Cowboy]

I hope this week the articles are up on the walls at training. Not that they will need motivation but there appears to be a fair bit of spite in a lot of the pieces that have gone to press.

[LondonMunster]

The only thing worth remembering about the Stradey Park loss in '07 was that Christian Cullen started for Munster.

However we play against Edinburgh, one thing is certain, Bradley won't let his charges be as bad as Saracens made them look last weekend.

[joeriddick]

Nice post Joe. One small correction 2007 we lost to Llanelli Scarlets in Stradey. I know because I was there & can't forget what was a whole evening of whoop ass for Munster

That's right, my mistake.

I'm surprised that "Glorious Munster of Ye Olden Tymes" actually lost a match, let alone got beaten out the gate.

[kelly-da-bomb]

Nice post Joe. One small correction 2007 we lost to Llanelli Scarlets in Stradey. I know because I was there & can't forget what was a whole evening of whoop ass for Munster

One of the most horrible games I've been at; we went out with a whimper that night and as champions too.

Llanelli went on to get an arse-kicking by Leicester in the following game. The same Leicester that won in Thomond.

[isola ciarrai]

No need for overreactions IC....

Dunno if it overreaction, Taz. I am just saying (a) that Garrett is silent and (b) it is certainly one step forward, three steps back. RP and his team cannot be faulted for the lack of some basic skills in many players but the glaring lack of any Plan B, in three consecutive important away games, is of concern. The Canterbury pragmatism is not evident and I was glad to hear him clarify in his post match interview that he has not told them to run every ball every time everywhere.
Doubt we can fault anyone for the headlessness out there Saturday, as it seemed to spread through the team like a pandemic. The lack of real leadership is worrying. No problem in accepting a two even three year project, but the level of progress is to me disappointing. The example of how Ulster faded and took years to recover should be minded in Munster.

[isola ciarrai]

A lot of people here would want to take note of what you say here.
Things are potentially that serious.

Or Ulster from 2000 to 2010, a long lean miserable decade for the club and its supporters.

[JoeyFantastic]

Dunno if it overreaction, Taz. I am just saying (a) that Garrett is silent and (b) it is certainly one step forward, three steps back. RP and his team cannot be faulted for the lack of some basic skills in many players but the glaring lack of any Plan B, in three consecutive important away games, is of concern. The Canterbury pragmatism is not evident and I was glad to hear him clarify in his post match interview that he has not told them to run every ball every time everywhere.
Doubt we can fault anyone for the headlessness out there Saturday, as it seemed to spread through the team like a pandemic. The lack of real leadership is worrying. No problem in accepting a two even three year project, but the level of progress is to me disappointing. The example of how Ulster faded and took years to recover should be minded in Munster.

If we are still playing like that in January I think I'll share your concerns.

Anyhow, looking at the season so far, it's really important to remember that several of our pack are just starting their seasons. POC's first start, POM and Ryan's second etc.

[isola ciarrai]

If we are still playing like that in January I think I'll share your concerns.

Anyhow, looking at the season so far, it's really important to remember that several of our pack are just starting their seasons. POC's first start, POM and Ryan's second etc.

The voice of reason in a world gone mad - January it is so Joey!! Take your valid point.

[Cowboy]

One of the most horrible games I've been at; we went out with a whimper that night and as champions too.

Llanelli went on to get an arse-kicking by Leicester in the following game. The same Leicester that won in Thomond.

I was there. A horrible night, beaten off the field in all aspects.

[RichardP]

Yes, Munster have never won the HC unless they lost their first match.

Every time we've won a game was on a day with a 'Y' in it, but then so was every time we've lost.

[rathbaner]

Ye Olde Munster had sensational players, we can ALL see that now, the Irish international tight five and, occasionally, the Irish international back row, and the Irish international half backs every now and then. But the HEC is such a great tournament that that is not enough.

You need luck on the pitch, and with injuries and with form too.

The attitude that the team is always good enough, if only they were coached right, really only got wind in its sails in 2009 after the Leinster SF in Croker.

Munster were HEC contenders from 2000 and were incredibly unlucky not to have won it before 2006. But we had a lot of luck on the way to 2006 and 2008. As much as we had bead luck before and after.

Let's hope Penney is a lucky coach, Tony McGahan was not. It's not good enough to be Good Enough to win it. Ask Toulouse and Biarritz.

We probly won't make it out of the group now but we are going places. Penney promised a rollercoaster. Get on. You'll see.

[Cill na Martra]

How many steps back have we taken now?

So far it seems that we're now at the point where posters are quaking in their boots about the inevitable Embra backlash - a team fisted by 45 unanswered points at home to a rabble of Saffer mercenaries, whose priority is playing HEC games in exotic locations.

[RichardP]

Penney seems to want to play a wide game regardless of conditions. It was his new zealand u20 team that was beaten by Wales in a mudbath earlier this year by trying to play the same way.

First 20 mins Munster played the conditions in traditional Munster style. Then it was kind of like "wait we must play a wide game now" and then you made RM ( who are a a very average outfit) look like world beaters. Bananas in my view.

Penney seems to disagree with you in part Outlaw:

"Penney conceded that decision-making was an issue, saying it was “unbelievable” they did not kick at certain times. But asked whether Munster could have been more pragmatic overall, he was keen to stress that space and not width is crucial to their approach.“I think the key thing is that we’ve just got to get more ruthless at nailing the opportunities when they appear and also not being so reckless when the opportunity is for us to put the ball into space.
“It’s not always about moving the ball into space by hand and we’ve got to be able to identify space in behind and put the ball there by foot as well when it’s appropriate.”

[NiallGK]

I arrived back from Paris, yesterday, knackered and frustrated.

My thoughts and recollections were that:

1, It rained (heavily) on and off from midday and there was dense downpour for a lot of the second half. The pitch was splashing up water in places. Strangely, once the game finished it started to clear up and the sun appeared.

2. A decent spread of Munster Fans dotted around, with two or three 200 plus groups. About 2,000 – 2,500, in my estimate.

3. We began with a winner’s intent and got the upper hand at scrum time only to slowly loose our way for 25 + minutes where we lost the plot on how to play the game in the conditions and later how to close a game out. Frustrating. We should have won that game with a bonus point.

4. We need Earls and Coughlin back ASAP.

5. We can still win this group if and when we get it right. As Piquete said, Munster lost their opening game on both of the occasions we won the cup. But will we get out of it?

6. Many of the younger players achieved parity and even outshone the RM opponents.

7. Kilcoyne, Holland and Dougall can hack it at this level.

8. Zebo’s try was a thing of beauty. The quick lineout (by Howlett?) created the gaping hole on the outside that he (and the outside runners, ruthlessly exploited. Keatly’s conversion shows that his boot and his nerve are both improving.

9. Murray surely won’t ever, ever, repeat that kind of performance (at least, I sincerely hope not).

10. Sherry is the most reliable of our hookers. The days of an imperious lineout seem like a very distant memory.

11. Does Casey Lualala have a position or place in this team?

12. Captain Doug Howlett looks to me to be mentally exhausted and POC’s constant interferences in his discussions with the ref was undermining of his captaincy. But then again Dougie failed to marshal the troops like a good captain should have.

13. Get the team balance and the game plans right and we might just be back in business. Edinburgh are going to (IMO) have a right cut off us next week.

[Thomond78]

How many steps back have we taken now?

So far it seems that we're now at the point where posters are quaking in their boots about the inevitable Embra backlash - a team fisted by 45 unanswered points at home to a rabble of Saffer mercenaries, whose priority is playing HEC games in exotic locations.

That would be the same mercenaries that, on another thread, you're saying will twat The Best Pack In Europe, Ever out of existence for a five-pointer?

Pick a line. Stick to it. Otherwise you're just a troll.

[The Outlaw]

Penney seems to disagree with you in part Outlaw:

"Penney conceded that decision-making was an issue, saying it was “unbelievable” they did not kick at certain times. But asked whether Munster could have been more pragmatic overall, he was keen to stress that space and not width is crucial to their approach.“I think the key thing is that we’ve just got to get more ruthless at nailing the opportunities when they appear and also not being so reckless when the opportunity is for us to put the ball into space.
“It’s not always about moving the ball into space by hand and we’ve got to be able to identify space in behind and put the ball there by foot as well when it’s appropriate.”

Reading the above suggests the players and coaching staff are at odds over the gameplan. Munster shouldnt be afraid of 10 man rugby if the occasion demands it IMO.

[Treaty Stone]

[QUOTE=joeriddick;1123453]

A HEC side is NOT built in three months so writing off a side (as Barnes and Hook have pretty much done) is ridiculous and can only be for some sexy copy to rile up the many hundreds of thousands of Munster fans who'll be looking for masochistic mouth ulcer licking after a bad performance because that what gets pageviews/attention.
[QUOTE]

Hook has written Munster off.. that's excellent news. I'd no idea as I've been ignoring him for some time now. If he can just remain consistent for a little bit longer we're in business.

[taz]

Dunno if it overreaction, Taz. I am just saying (a) that Garrett is silent and (b) it is certainly one step forward, three steps back. RP and his team cannot be faulted for the lack of some basic skills in many players but the glaring lack of any Plan B, in three consecutive important away games, is of concern. The Canterbury pragmatism is not evident and I was glad to hear him clarify in his post match interview that he has not told them to run every ball every time everywhere.
Doubt we can fault anyone for the headlessness out there Saturday, as it seemed to spread through the team like a pandemic. The lack of real leadership is worrying. No problem in accepting a two even three year project, but the level of progress is to me disappointing. The example of how Ulster faded and took years to recover should be minded in Munster.

(a) When does Garret say anything about his management?

(b) How long does it take to implement a new game plan? It will take time,but Mid October is not the time to question it? IMO anyway.

[Thomond78]

Reading the above suggests the players and coaching staff are at odds over the gameplan. Munster shouldnt be afraid of 10 man rugby if the occasion demands it IMO.

If that means Penney's batin' proper Munster rugby back into 'em, how bad.

Point has a chubby at the thought. Just. The thought.