HC Racing Metro Sat 13 13:35 Irish time team # 383

[Point]

I see what you're saying Point, but walking out of the ground last night I felt that we'd sent up stronger teams in previous years and taken abject rinsings along the way. When you think that Killer Dougall Doc2 are all total fledglings it's heartening. We'll improve, how far we'll improve is, as you say, really only to be defined as we get further down the fixture list.


Another thing that has resonated with me is the outright proclamation from the players that Fortress Thomond shall be reestablished as the hellhole it rightfully is. If we can beat the Leinster Ulstron and O's when they travel over the shannon then we'll have made proper progress.

As always with things on here, we're not as shyte as we think and we're not as good as we think.

I agree, we have the basis of a very good squad (though we're screwed if BJB is injured), but we need to walk before we can run. We need to put back the basic elements of our game that McGahan ripped out, and Penney has shown to be capable of that in NZ. I want, hope and expect he'll do that here. Lest it should be forgotten, people have created careers in working for Munster Rugby. The last 3 years has been a steady decline in attendance, so if we don't start to look like contenders again, more jobs will be lost and they will be damn hard to get back.

[scotscor]

I see what you're saying Point, but walking out of the ground last night I felt that we'd sent up stronger teams in previous years and taken abject rinsings along the way. When you think that Killer Dougall Doc2 are all total fledglings it's heartening. We'll improve, how far we'll improve is, as you say, really only to be defined as we get further down the fixture list.


Another thing that has resonated with me is the outright proclamation from the players that Fortress Thomond shall be reestablished as the hellhole it rightfully is. If we can beat the Leinster Ulstron and O's when they travel over the shannon then we'll have made proper progress.

As always with things on here, we're not as shyte as we think and we're not as good as we think.

Leinster had a poor team out last night. The squad we sent up should have won, especially if we had started with the team we finished with.

[scotscor]

Expect and hope to see

WDP
Sherry
BJB
DOC
Ryan
DOC2
Dougall
POM
Murray
Keatley
Zebo
Downey
Casey
Howlett
Earls

With POC for DOC after 60

I cannot see Earls being transformed into a 15 in HEC round 1, if there had been any possibility of that happening at some stage during the last 4 games Earls would have played at 15.

[Malley]

I think I've answered that in the post above.

Splitting the forwards in a 2-4-2 alignment when we have the ball is a big shift

[Aussiedub]

I see what you're saying Point, but walking out of the ground last night I felt that we'd sent up stronger teams in previous years and taken abject rinsings along the way. When you think that Killer Dougall Doc2 are all total fledglings it's heartening. We'll improve, how far we'll improve is, as you say, really only to be defined as we get further down the fixture list.


Another thing that has resonated with me is the outright proclamation from the players that Fortress Thomond shall be reestablished as the hellhole it rightfully is. If we can beat the Leinster Ulstron and O's when they travel over the shannon then we'll have made proper progress.

As always with things on here, we're not as shyte as we think and we're not as good as we think.

Cowboy - the issue is that this was one of the weakest Leinster teams you have played in years though.

[outside inside]

Cowboy - the issue is that this was one of the weakest Leinster teams you have played in years though.

Really was it one of the weakest Leinster teams ? From the starting 15 how many missing from your best ?
Healy who was replaced by VdeM a player with whom he has rotated for the last number of years , Cullen covered by Browne , O'Brien covered by another Irish Int Jennings , D'Arce cover by Irish Int McFaddan , Kearney cover by one of your best players this season Madigan all be it out of position .
Your bench was weak but your starting 15 was a good side as they proved on the night .
This is Joe's third season and your squad are up to speed on how he wants to play and players can be rotated in and out but still know the game plan . The typical slow start not helped by injuries, mostly to players who would be featuring early season, but no prizes given out in Sep.
From a Munster point of view we put in a decent performance against a good Leinster side who were more experienced in key areas .

[Aussiedub]

Really was it one of the weakest Leinster teams ? From the starting 15 how many missing from your best ?
Healy who was replaced by VdeM a player with whom he has rotated for the last number of years , Cullen covered by Browne , O'Brien covered by another Irish Int Jennings , D'Arce cover by Irish Int McFaddan , Kearney cover by one of your best players this season Madigan all be it out of position .
Your bench was weak but your starting 15 was a good side as they proved on the night .
This is Joe's third season and your squad are up to speed on how he wants to play and players can be rotated in and out but still know the game plan . The typical slow start not helped by injuries, mostly to players who would be featuring early season, but no prizes given out in Sep.
From a Munster point of view we put in a decent performance against a good Leinster side who were more experienced in key areas .

So guaranteed starters missing from the 23 were Healy, Cullen, SOB, Darcy, Luke Fitz and R Kearney. Bench players missing was Boss & D Kearney with depth players like Rhys Ruddock, Dom Ryan, Roux, Bent, Goodman, E O'Malley etc not around to cover injuries......we then lost McLaughlin after 10 mins, BOD/Nacewa after 55 mins and finished with a backline of Reddan, Sexton, Cooney, McFadden, Reid, Carr, Madigan....

[outside inside]

Lots of pretty tries but I don't rate those teams anyway as highly as I would Leinster, Clermont and Toulouse. If you look back at threads from a month ago, I was saying exactly the same thing and I was looking forward to the Leinster game as a baseline for where we are, so we can properly judge the Penney effect next March/April, when we next play a top team (i.e. Leinster). Apart from extra support at the breakdown, I don't see much of a difference in the style of play from last season. We are still, largely, going from side to side, without much of an effort to tie the opposition cover in, in the futile hope that 20 phases later a gap will open up. We are still using the forward in the 10 position to run at the opposition without proper support. There is no variation, which is the biggest issue, we are too predictable.

I'm giving Penney the benefit of the doubt that he wants to see how we are currently playing before making radical changes, but he should be capable at this stage, of seeing the basic flaws in the continued use of McGahanball.

He should remember that we want to see a winning Munster. Prettiness should only be an afterthought.

I understand the points you are making and i think they hold true in general play particularly as we go through the phases . However what has changed is our strike moves off our set piece , it is very NZ , who look to score off set moves . Dougie's try against Traviso over thrown line out to DOC2 and off load to blind side winger . Tries 1&2 against against the Dragons clear clever moves well executed.The game plan has also changed in that we are running the ball in our 22 to try and get round the defence who have pulled players back to receive a kick. It has helped us to not only retain possession but we have gained huge ground as well .
As we got on top at the end of the Leinster match our forwards were taking the ball on in close with the pick and goes and gaining territory . This aspect of play has been missing along with mauling some of our line out ball to suck in the defence before going wide . If these our the aspects of play that you want more emphasis on i am in total agreement ? At the moment we are a mixture of old and new , it is just going to take time for all the players to implement the new style . Furthermore we are missing POC's leadership in the pack , if he was playing i feel our forwards would take on more ball close in . Finally selecting our best team including the players in form and more comfortable with the new style would improve matters greatly .

[Point]

Splitting the forwards in a 2-4-2 alignment when we have the ball is a big shift

What's it leading to ? I could see a clear difference of more numbers at the breakdown, during the match, which is good, but I'm looking at it it in comparison to Leinster, there is no variation. The Backs run their plays from the backline, and for the most part the Forwards run their moves from the backline as well. Thus the opposition can clearly see what we are up to, and all we end up doing is looking for space in an overcrowded area. There's no attempt vary that by pick and driving, forwards offloading close to the breakdown or mauling in order to tie in numbers, so we end running up the usual blind alleys putting our backline under needless pressure.

[outside inside]

So guaranteed starters missing from the 23 were Healy, Cullen, SOB, Darcy, Luke Fitz and R Kearney. Bench players missing was Boss & D Kearney with depth players like Rhys Ruddock, Dom Ryan, Roux, Bent, Goodman, E O'Malley etc not around to cover injuries......we then lost McLaughlin after 10 mins, BOD/Nacewa after 55 mins and finished with a backline of Reddan, Sexton, Cooney, McFadden, Reid, Carr, Madigan....

I will repeat your bench was weak but your starting 15 was a good side as they proved . That starting team is better than all the Rabbo teams with possibly the exception of the O's . Could you have fielded a stronger side without the injuries ? Of course you could. However to say that 15 was a very weak side does not stand up imho.

[Point]

I understand the points you are making and i think they hold true in general play particularly as we go through the phases . However what has changed is our strike moves off our set piece , it is very NZ , who look to score off set moves . Dougie's try against Traviso over thrown line out to DOC2 and off load to blind side winger . Tries 1&2 against against the Dragons clear clever moves well executed.The game plan has also changed in that we are running the ball in our 22 to try and get round the defence who have pulled players back to receive a kick. It has helped us to not only retain possession but we have gained huge ground as well .
As we got on top at the end of the Leinster match our forwards were taking the ball on in close with the pick and goes and gaining territory . This aspect of play has been missing along with mauling some of our line out ball to suck in the defence before going wide . If these our the aspects of play that you want more emphasis on i am in total agreement ? At the moment we are a mixture of old and new , it is just going to take time for all the players to implement the new style . Furthermore we are missing POC's leadership in the pack , if he was playing i feel our forwards would take on more ball close in . Finally selecting our best team including the players in form and more comfortable with the new style would improve matters greatly .

Yes, it is the general play/2nd phase onwards, that I'm talking about. It's a huge part of the game, and we're lacking badly in thinking on our feet. Indeed, you're right at the end of the Leinster match is a good example of what we are missing. Now I'm not saying we must do this and only this (not at all in fact). What I am saying is that since McGahan's time, we have excluded that type of rugby as if it was neanderthal rugby, but it's effective, we're damn good at it, and we should be using it as another string to our bow. Rather than a mix of old or new, it's more like all new - we are repudiating our past when we don't need to, or shouldn't do. The point I am also making though, is that it doesn't matter who you pick while we play the way we do, because better teams will easily deal with the way we currently play. A below strength Leinster have shown us that.

[outside inside]

What's it leading to ? I could see a clear difference of more numbers at the breakdown, during the match, which is good, but I'm looking at it it in comparison to Leinster, there is no variation. Agree there needs to be more variation , feel lack of leadership in our pack is one of the contributing factors . They are being empowered to play what is in front of them , however it was not until Holland and Varley came on that we started to have a right go at them close in .
The Backs run their plays from the backline, and for the most part the Forwards run their moves from the backline as well. Thus the opposition can clearly see what we are up to, and all we end up doing is looking for space in an overcrowded area. There's no attempt vary that by pick and driving, forwards offloading close to the breakdown or mauling in order to tie in numbers, so we end running up the usual blind alleys putting our backline under needless pressure.

Strike moves by our backs of set plays have yield some cracking try's , however your point is well made if we go wide of every LO the opposition know what is coming , so mixing it up, some mauls or run a move close to the line out , Dougie's try against Traviso or the TOL peal round the back of the LO with off load to supporting winger. Leinster also use the move were they start by going wide then send the ball back inside , their try against Clermont in HC was a reverse ball back inside to Kearney .

[Sketchy]

Lots of pretty tries but I don't rate those teams anyway as highly as I would Leinster, Clermont and Toulouse. If you look back at threads from a month ago, I was saying exactly the same thing and I was looking forward to the Leinster game as a baseline for where we are, so we can properly judge the Penney effect next March/April, when we next play a top team (i.e. Leinster). Apart from extra support at the breakdown, I don't see much of a difference in the style of play from last season. We are still, largely, going from side to side, without much of an effort to tie the opposition cover in, in the futile hope that 20 phases later a gap will open up. We are still using the forward in the 10 position to run at the opposition without proper support. There is no variation, which is the biggest issue, we are too predictable.

I'm giving Penney the benefit of the doubt that he wants to see how we are currently playing before making radical changes, but he should be capable at this stage, of seeing the basic flaws in the continued use of McGahanball.

He should remember that we want to see a winning Munster. Prettiness should only be an afterthought.

Point, there is a fundamental flaw to your argument. You're not giving any consideration to the fact that ROG is responsible for our toothless displays against the Os and Leinster that look so strikingly similar to the side to side sh*t we were privy to under McGahan. You said yourself to outside inside :

Yes, it is the general play/2nd phase onwards, that I'm talking about. It's a huge part of the game, and we're lacking badly in thinking on our feet. Indeed, you're right at the end of the Leinster match is a good example of what we are missing.

What was the difference at the end of the Leinster game? Keatley. If you don't factor in the difference brought by each outhalf then we will end up going in circles for the day. One is embracing the new coaches style, the other is reverting to McGahan's style cos he is unable to execute the physical and pacey new style of Penney.

EDIT: And after two and a half months you want to compare us to Leinster, Toulouse and Clermont? How about we compare oursleves to those that finished above us in the HEC last year. Edinburgh and Ulster. Bit unfair/unrealistic to be comparing us against the top 3 teams in Europe, at this point in time.

[Cowboy]

Cowboy - the issue is that this was one of the weakest Leinster teams you have played in years though.

Ye send down a side to Limerick next spring with a comparable experience level to the one Munster sent up so and we'll see how they get on. I'd like to see a back row all under 23, and preferably with less than 53 caps between them. Oh, and a loosehead with 9 caps, BJ would be thrilled if you could line that up as well.

You continuously fail to give consideration to the fact that for large elements of that Munster team this was as big a game as they'd ever played in. Even some of the older players that made appearances such as Billy Holland, did I ever think he'd play as he did in front of a decent crowd in the Aviva? No TBH, but he, like many others is showing a gradual incline in ability and talent.

This is going to take us time, and its going to take a lot of patience. How you view the result is entirely based on your perspective, Leinster had 10 of their best 15 out, at home, and it took 50 mins before they managed to garner breathing space against a mediocre and inexperienced Munster side?? Leinster scored and we went straight back down and scored. Also the toll on Leinster seems to have been far greater, the injuries continue to mount.

[Thomond78]

Cowboy: let the troll starve (advice I'm now going to take myself).

Edit: I miss Kiff and Zapp, at least you knew who was who then...

[Talking Sense]

Would go with

WDP
MS
BJ
DOC
Ryan
DOC2.0
Ronan
POM (Capt)
CM
Keats
Zebo
Downey
Lualala
Earls
Hurley

Varley, Killer, Archer, Holland, Ronan, Williams, ROG, Howlett.

[the_dazz]

My hope is that Penney now has a clear understanding that Laulala is not a 12 and that Downey will start next week and Penney will begin to develop A.N Other 12 option (be that Dineen or Hanrahan or whoever). My opinion is that Keatley is currently playing the better rugby of our two 10s but I unfortunately cant see Penney dropping ROG. I reckon we will see ROG Downey at 10, 12 next week.

[AdolphusGrigson]

Would go with

WDP
MS
BJ
DOC
Ryan
DOC2.0
Ronan
POM (Capt)
CM
Keats
Zebo
Downey
Lualala
Earls
Hurley

Varley, Killer, Archer, Holland, Ronan, Williams, ROG, Howlett.

It will be disappointing if Keats, Downey and Lualala dont start - cant see Howlett being dropped to accomodate Earls, more likley to be Hurley.

[Thomond78]

Why would you be disappointed not to see Laulala start? He's had two stinkers in a row with very poor basic defence in both. Is it not fair to ask whether we were ascribing to him a lot of good things that were actually due to Downey making room and providing front-foot ball for everyone else?

[Viigand]

Both playing at 12 though, when he is an out and out 13.

[John Cooper Clarke]

This place will erupt or spontaneously combust if ROG gets the nod and anybody else but Downey gets picked at 12.

[Thomond78]

Both playing at 12 though, when he is an out and out 13.

And we have a better one in Earls, who looks good even without Downey inside him. So, Downey 12, Earls 13.

[glorob]

This place will erupt or spontaneously combust if ROG gets the nod and anybody else but Downey gets picked at 12.

I think Downey, if fit, will be selected at 12 but I do not see anyone other than ROG starting at 10.

[Waterfordlad]

Reflecting on the Aviva game again, typically Munster tend not to show too many rehearsed moves etc the week before HEC

We did a few good moves on Saturday and ultimately scored 2 tries - it will be interesting to see if we have some good training ground moves lined up for Racing

[Cowboy]

Thought this was interesting:

Played 12 won 3

[BOK]

And we have a better one in Earls, who looks good even without Downey inside him. So, Downey 12, Earls 13.

When Laulala has played in his proper position at 13 I think he has been very good and dont think there is much between himself and Earls tbh. Casey provides a lot more in attack with his offloading ability whereas Earls is more solid in defence. It's very much a 50/50 call imo. Downey has to start at 12 though no which way about it.

[ephileth]

Thought this was interesting:

Played 12 won 3

Interesting alrite tho it's game 1, they're at home and of course not out yet.
Interesting also is that last year in their first home game they narrowly lost to Cardiff and two years ago beat Clermont.
I think it will depend a lot on what team they field and what interest they have in the HEC but winning in France has never been easy and I dont reckon it'll be next Saturday. But it's feasible and we proved that already so fingers crossed

[redherring]

When Laulala has played in his proper position at 13 I think he has been very good and dont think there is much between himself and Earls tbh. Casey provides a lot more in attack with his offloading ability whereas Earls is more solid in defence. It's very much a 50/50 call imo. Downey has to start at 12 though no which way about it.

I agree it's a 50/50 call but I think the game will be won and lost up front on Saturday. It's vital that Munster match Racing up front on Saturday. They will have a big physical pack who will want to play it tight. If Munster go with the same game plan as last weekend no matter who's out there I can't see them winning.

[Drick]

Thought this was interesting:

Played 12 won 3

I think thats last years fixtures.

they have played 8 so far this season - Won 4 Lost 4

18/08/2012	1e Journée	SU Agen	20 - 24	Racing Métro 92
25/08/2012	2e Journée	Racing Métro 92	21 - 23	Rugby Club Toulonnais
01/09/2012	3e Journée	Racing Métro 92	18 - 7	Union Bordeaux-Bègles
09/09/2012	4e Journée	ASM Clermont	13 - 12	Racing Métro 92
15/09/2012	5e Journée	Aviron Bayonnais	18 - 25	Racing Métro 92
22/09/2012	6e Journée	Racing Métro 92	13 - 12	Biarritz Olympique
29/09/2012	7e Journée	Grenoble	27 - 13	Racing Métro 92
06/10/2012	8e Journée	Racing Métro 92	12 - 16	Montpellier Hérault Rugby

[MunsterTel]

Aussiedub, are you endlessly antagonistic in every aspect of your life? It's very tiresome.