ROG

[jeepers]

Now that seem's very plausible. Put yourself in his shoes, 'Hello I'm your new coach from down under. First thing I'll do is get rid of the legendary outhalf who was pivotal to the whole team for almost fifteen years.' O'Gara has more standing with the players than he has and O'Gara will kick up a fuss whenever he is dropped and will not be able to understand it and then you'll have a potentially upset camp. I'm not looking forward to seeing O'Gara's reaction to whenever he's dropped. I can see him flipping and calling up a few favours with some journalists and getting a few subtle digs in at Penney. There's an aspect to his personality that generally results in admirable qualities such as his willingness to win, but he'll throw an unmerciful sulk whenever he's dropped.

Penney has dropped Paul O'Connell as club captain and replaced him with a non-Irish player (a winger at that) and no one batted an eyelid. That was a big call by Penney very early on. Neither the squad or the press went into meltdown over it.

ROG didn't call in any favours this year from journalists bearing in mind that Sexton has started the last 8 internationals. Maybe that is why the Irish team are playing so poorly - the Ireland squad are upset because ROG isn't starting. Do you have a link to where he can be seen sulking about that?

As an aside, I heard Shane Byrne discussing the team selection on RTE yesterday - he said Penney picked ROG for the game in the Aviva to get him match fit to start in Paris next weekend.

[galinka]

Most Munster supporters hold ROG in very high regard. I count myself as one of those people. You're getting very carried away if you think people have it in for ROG. There is such a thing as objective criticism.

Many people who are shrewd observers think that ROG has a number of fundamental weaknesses in his game. So while they might think ROG has been a very good player for Munster, they think Keatley is potentially a much better player if given a real opportunity. I love to see an outhalf who can attack the gainline with pace/power. I see a lot of that in Keatley. I think it ties down a backrow and it sucks in the opposition centres and 10. With ROG you don't get that and it makes it much easier to defend the rest of the backline. Some people don't seem to get that. If we are looking to play a traditional Munster 10 man game then ROG is the man. He is a peerless line kicker, no question.

Another point that is worth noting is that ROG isn't the best defender available at 10. Keatley is powerful in the tackle and you can't discount that.

Also important is that ROG's time is passing fast, if not already past. It reminds me a bit of RTE. Rather than giving someone else a chance we still see people like Gay Byrne etc when we all know their time is long gone. After a very good 12+ years it's surely pragmatic to look to the future and give Keatley an extended run at 10. It doesn't mean that ROG has to be jettisoned, it means that he can play a role for Munster like he has played for Ireland the past few seasons, ie there as a backup and as a substitute if needed.

I would also be worried that after effectively getting dropped, Keatley's game will be badly disrupted, and he hasn't done much to deserve to be dropped.

Excellent post - very fair summary in my view.
To me ROG is the greatest no 10 Munster will ever have - but time moves on, age catches up with everyone, his kicking from hand has been poor, his tackling is killing us and he cannot make a line break.
For me Keatley has to start in Paris.

Its a new era under Penney - its time for change at no. 10 too.

[galinka]

Was he, posting here? Didn't know that. Skib I think. Will be keeping an eye out. Initial reports are good

Sounds like an old newspaper headline - the Skibbereen Eagle is keeping an eye on Russia!!

[Aussiedub]

A lot of people here claiming that Kidney is forcing Penney to play O'Gara. Can anyone just explain this to me? Last time I checked JJ and Keatley were both Irish. Why would Kidney be so desperate to have O'Gara available for international duty? If he's getting steamrolled at Celtic league level what will happen to him at international level? I know opinions of Kidney are low now but is anyone really suggesting that his thinking on the matter is, 'Oh, sure if I put good old ROG up against South African and Fijian strike runners he's sure to tackle them?' Give the man some credit, why would he have a grudge against young up and coming outhalves like JJ and Keatley?

Why did he call up Paddy Wallace from the beach to start against NZ for example?

[bugler]

The only thing worse than the 'Drop ROG' thread will be the 'Start ROG' thread when he inevitably does something very good - turns a match or lands a DG in the dying seconds.

I have not trawled the thread and really really don't want to...suffice to say all I really want when seeing a Munster team named is to see the best team available. I don't think ROG is done and I won't be surprised if he plays a massive role in our HC campaign, be it from the bench or as a starter. But currently he isn't the form outhalf we have, and in starting him (and CL at 12) we are not picking our best team. Without actually being Rob Penney we are not privy to why that is, I just hope it stops soon.

[jeepers]

Why did he call up Paddy Wallace from the beach to start against NZ for example?

PW had just gone on holidays. He had been on injury standby and had been training in Belfast up to about 2 days before that. He had played against the Barbarians.

Maybe Kidney wanted to make a point to the IRFU that their penny pinching wasn't serving the national team well and that Madigan & Wallace should have gone on the tour.

[Jackie Brown]

With Darren Cave and McFadden both kicking their heels to call up Paddy Wallace was a farce. If he did it to somehow make a point to the IRFU he instead made a complete fool out of himself.

[taz]

Was he not posting on this site only a couple of months back? What club did he go to?

Darkster?

[i_like_cake]

To me ROG is the greatest no 10 Munster will ever have -

Will Ever have..?? you might have phrased that a little wrong... What if JJ turns out to be the next Dan Carter..?

[i_like_cake]

Darkster?

http://www.munsterfans.com/threads/1...=1#post1095728

this guy..?

[lawrence]

everyone needs to remember that you are only as good as your last game

[John123]

http://www.munsterfans.com/threads/1...=1#post1095728

this guy..?

Yeah that's him, never looked at the video so it obviously isn't him unless he decided to change positions...

[jeepers]

With Darren Cave and McFadden both kicking their heels to call up Paddy Wallace was a farce. If he did it to somehow make a point to the IRFU he instead made a complete fool out of himself.

Cave hasn't played 12 - maybe BOD didn't feel like shifting to inside centre. Paddy Wallace had more or less the same gametime as D Cave. McFadden started on the wing, with Trimble on the bench. Bear in mind that Earls had missed the previous test through injury.

John Hayes had no problem turning up and performing for the Lions in a similar situation.

[Blindsider.]

Sounds like an old newspaper headline - the Skibbereen Eagle is keeping an eye on Russia!!

I remember that poster - I'll see if I can find him....

oops - just saw post above - yep, Darkster was the guy. Any news on him?

[Hellraiser]

Why did he call up Paddy Wallace from the beach to start against NZ for example?

Central contract. He asked to bring Madigan in the original touring party but was refused firstly on the basis of the cost of bringing a third 10 and on enquiring about the possibility of giving ROG the Summer off was told in no uncertain terms that an uncontracted player would not travel ahead of an available contracted player.

[munstershane]

There's a young saffer out half just arrived onto the Irish club scene, a big dude too. His stated aim being to play for Munster & Ireland. He's apparently been knocking over penalties from the halfway line with ease. Will report back in a few weeks if he seems the real deal

From a friend of mine - "He played his first game yesterday, and has only started with Skibb a few weeks, so time will tell , though by what i hear he has got of to a good start!"

[The Last Stand]

From a friend of mine - "He played his first game yesterday, and has only started with Skibb a few weeks, so time will tell , though by what i hear he has got of to a good start!"

So he left SA and came to Ireland with the stated objective of playing for Munster and Ireland?

[munstershane]

Apparently. That is the story doing the rounds anyhow.

His name is Stephen Handsel

[joconnell]

That handsel's so hot right now.

[busby]

Why? To suggest that a professional coach who does nothing but study the game and the players at his disposal is "out of touch with post ELV rugby" is beyond laughable.

What do you think he does? Watch DVD's of the grand slam season all day?

Maybe he has good reason (beyond a total ignorance of the modern game) for not agreeing with your armchair analysis?

Do you not realise what a preposterous statement that was?

I believe he has a rugby philosophy, like every head coach in rugby does. It's a philosophy that was ideally suited to the Munster team he was in charge of, a team which backboned the 2009 Grand Slam winning side.

However since then the Irish team have been a blundering mess. While Leinster have dominated Europe with one of the most exciting rugby styles on the planet, with Ireland it has been failure after failure with a conservative game plan. Kidney has yet to adapt to a new bunch of players at his disposal and with how rugby has moved on. His philosophy looks fundamentally flawed - just like McGahan's appeared to be.

By the way, if you have such an issue with "armchair" analysis then why the the **** are you a moderator of a rugby discussion forum? Its kind of the point of the entire thing.

[yokibob]

good comments galinka. There's no doubting ROG's immense contribution to Munster Rugby. I've also no doubt that he has still plenty of Rugby to offer Munster. The new mantra however is that we're building for the future. If this is the case then Keatley is the future. He was great for the 20 mins he played on Saturday. Keatley should start on Saturday, with ROG as backup. That's building for the future.

[John123]

I would be in favour of a change. Now lets see ROG prove us all wrong as per usual this weekend...

[offshorerules]

I like a bet. I only bet on rugby though as I find it easier to predict than many other sports. I never ever, ever, ever bet on the Rabo. Why? Because, and this is especially true of Rabo games pre HEC starting, is that they are totally unpredictable and stand for nothing in the overall grand scheme of things.

So with that in mind does Keats or ROG's form to date mean anything? No, not really. Keats has been playing well like he was at the beginning of last season. By the end of it many now calling for him to start had condemned him back to Leinster. ROG looked over the hill last year and many were questioning his decision not to retire this very week last year. A few days on and one drop goal later? Well we all know what happened next.

As someone once said, form is temporary, class is permanent. There are sides that would kill to have someone like ROG available to them and whether or not he starts or comes on as a sub he will always be class.

[Mcork]

I have a fear (it's only a theory not a statement of fact before anyone jumps down my throat) that kidney had picked his squad for the AI's prior to the start of the season. Of course not all 30 players but at least 2/3's of them. Nothing too shocking there. However i think he went to the provincial coaches (mainly Schmidt & Penney) and got their backing to ensure his chosen squad members got gametime. Penney has referred several times to 'robust and frank' discussions with kidney. What did they talk about? Think about it. They can only have been talking about putting IRL first. Penney has also spoken widely about doing his best to make sure the Irish team succeeds. Are his hands effectively tied on ROG?

[joconnell]

There's been no major hirings to the ireland coaching team that'd suggest a change in game plan or approach so shall we expect more of the same in the autumn?

[The Outlaw]

There's been no major hirings to the ireland coaching team that'd suggest a change in game plan or approach so shall we expect more of the same in the autumn?

Only changes are in the backroom staff- all from leinster.

[jeepers]

I have a fear (it's only a theory not a statement of fact before anyone jumps down my throat) that kidney had picked his squad for the AI's prior to the start of the season. Of course not all 30 players but at least 2/3's of them. Nothing too shocking there. However i think he went to the provincial coaches (mainly Schmidt & Penney) and got their backing to ensure his chosen squad members got gametime. Penney has referred several times to 'robust and frank' discussions with kidney. What did they talk about? Think about it. They can only have been talking about putting IRL first. Penney has also spoken widely about doing his best to make sure the Irish team succeeds. Are his hands effectively tied on ROG?

They could have talked about the Prop situation (bearing in mind we have two SA props) which is far more urgent than outhalf and might explain why Archer & Kilcoyne are getting plenty of gametime and props are being shipped out on loan to London Irish.

They could also have discussed Keith Earls & Simon Zebo and their best positions.

Kidney might have been telling him to play James Downey in the big games as he wants him for the autumn internationals.

[glorob]

A big loss today.

Will he be ok for next week?

[sewa]

The ludicrous chip in our 22 we just about got away with and the crap pass that ended up in a try for RM apart I assume.

[MadDave]

A big loss today.

Will he be ok for next week?

O'Gara is definitely past it but he seems to have been made a scapegoat for Munster's loses. People got too excited by easy wins over teams like Edinburgh and Treviso with Keatley at 10 and decided to blame ROG being at 10 for Munster's ineptitude for the last few years. It was a nice argument that fit into their view that Munster rugby isn't in serious decline, its simply the selection of one player thats wrong.

And then there were those that said the IRFU forced the selection (LOL) there was no basis for that believe because the other 10 behind O'Gara was Irish Keatley.

For too long we've tried to scapgoat for Munster's demise. Its MCGAHANS FAULT, its THE IRFU FORCING SELECTIONS, no no no ITS O'GARA HES IMPEDING THE TEAM.

its time for people to just accept that we aren't producing players anywhere close to the Kearneys,O'Briens,Healys,Sextons etc.

Do you honestly think that producing the likes of Hurley, Dougall, Kilcoyne and signing Keatley means that Munster will scale the heights of winning the HC again? No way.