ROG

[bmacky]

Hi all, long time lurker but thought it was a good time to take the plunge and get involved. The main reason for getting involved has been some of the stuff written on here about ROG since the start of the season. Are people genuinely suggesting that he is past it at this stage?

The same guy who almost single handedly got us through the group phase unbeaten last year? The guy is shaking off the cob webs just as Keatley did in the three pre-season games at the start of the season. Is it ideal he has to iron out the kinks in competitive games, no? Not his or munsters call, but it has been the same for the past decade. But give the guy a break, should we all start calling time on POC if he under performs after a lengthy absence over the coming weeks?

I am somewhat encouraged by what I've seen from Keatley and even more so from JJ but would I be comfortable with either of the two of them starting ahead of ROG in the white heat of Paris next week, not unless absolutely necessary. Does that mean that if they come in over the course of the season and outperform him that they shouldn't take the spot, absolutely not. But at least let the guy get back up to match speed before you start writing him off. Jesus, it's a good thing we don't have euthanasia in Ireland or the poor guy would be for the chop!

For me, I think we are in a great spot at 10, much healthier than at any point since Warwick left and probably longer. We have a top class, experienced ten and two up and coming guys to learn from him, both of whom are Irish qualified.

I guess alli'm saying is be a bit consistent and have a bit of perspective on things. Twelve months ago Keatley was written off by many on this site and ROG could do no wrong. Now its almost a full role reversal, the truth probably lies more in the middle. ROG will soon be back to full tilt, give the guy a break. No one should be untouchable but at least give everyone a fair run at things.

[Valencia]

Good first post. Welcome Bmackey

[Dowlinz]

Agreed, the hysteria many post on munsterfans over ROG goes beyond even worth a response at this stage. It's just an amusing obsession for a handful of people who for whatever reason desperately yearn for his downfall.

The same calls would never come for POC in those circumstances from those quarters, which is telling.

[mr chips]

I doubt that many are suggesting he's past it - I'm certainly not. There are however other issues to consider. Firstly, I think it's reasonable to expect that as a senior pro he shouldn't need four or five games to get up to speed. I posted to that effect after his opening appearance off the bench in Belfast (when he got a fair bit of criticism for the likes of the fluffed 22 dropout and for not attempting the drop goal when there were at least two clear opportunities to do so) - it was his first bit of pitch time this season and some rustiness was to be expected. Take it on the chin and move on. By the time it came to the Ospreys game, he'd had another full game and two extra weeks of training under his belt, but it was a pretty sub-par performance (he was by no means alone in that regard, but this thread is about him). Neither ROG nor any other player (including POC!) is beyond critical and honest appraisal, and regardless of what he's done for us before, we still want to win games now, or at least put in decent performances and know we did the best we could when we lose - as with the Ulster game.

Secondly, the issue of building for the future absolutely has to be a factor this season. ROG is 35 and from now on, every season has to be seen as potentially his final one before retirement regardless of his stated intention to play until he's 38. Keatley has put in some very effective performances at 10 this season, and simply has to be more heavily involved if we're to have any expectations at all of future success. Now is also the time to start bringing JJ through. Otherwise it'll just be akin to burning the floor joists to keep the house warm. Rotation is vital to keeping players competitive in the current season and giving the "junior" ones more experience under the new coaching ticket. Maintaining that ROG is unquestioningly our best option at 10 and should be starting our HEC games by default is just as misguided as claiming that his career should already be over.

[joeriddick]

ROG isn't past it, he still has an awful lot to offer this Munster side.

My point is and has been, that form should be rewarded and ROG should be played against teams that his strengths will be most effective against. ROG's form has been poor in what we've seen so far and as Chips has pointed out above, a senior player with his experience and skill set shouldn't need four or five games to work himself into form.

Keatley has been playing better and that's what should matter.

A lot of people seem to have it in their head that the only reason people would want one player to start over another is because of some inherent bias against the incumbent or because of some wanton disrespect for their past achievements.

The ONLY reason I've been advocating Keatley over ROG is because, at the moment, IK is in form and ROG isn't. Ideas that ROG can turn his form on and off at will for the big games are falling into the realm of magical thinking. Bar his goal kicking last week he was quite poor.

As he pushes on his performances needs to be met with more scrutiny, as is only proper. For some people he's a safety blanket due to his association with so many wins in the past but everyone's clock runs out eventually.

ROG was, is and always will be a legend but right now he's an out of form legend. We'll get away with his obvious shortcomings tonight due to the amount of injuries Leinster have but if he under performs again then he should not start in Paris.

[Sketchy]

I don't think anyone that is calling for Keatley to start means any disrespect to ROG. Or that they appreciate less what ROG has done for Munster than someone calling for ROG to start. They are just giving their opinions on what they know about rugby. The game of rugby is constantly changing, and some players thrive under certain rules and styles and some don't. ROG was the master of getting the most from the ELVs with the best pack Europe has seen to compliment his attributes. Unfortunately the game has gotten faster and more physical. The problem for ROG is that he offers nothing in terms of physicality. Rugby is now a game that requires physicality in defence and physicality and/or pace in attack. ROG makes an easy target for the opposition team to breach the gainline, and puts inordinate pressure on our backrow to compensate. Paddy Butler case in point versus the Ospreys. In terms of attack with ball in hand, not only can he not break but if he is caught in contact we lose possession. This gives the opposition defence structure an easy job as they know the ball will go wide or be kicked deep. And if he does take it into contact they will get an easy turnover. The defensive pressure put on our outside backs is massive in comparison to when Keatley is on the field. ROG is a decent passer but his job is made nigh impossible given that the opposing defence is pushing up in a blanket towards all the backs he is intending to pass to.

What ROG does offer as we all know is an incredible tactical kicking awareness and almost unrivalled place-kicking. Fortunately under Penny we are choosing to keep possession longer and giving the ball to the opposition is and should be seen as a last resort. So ROG's best attribute is becoming increasingly less important to our new, revised, and welcomed gameplan.

Who is to say that he can't reinvent himself and become our starting 10? I would certainly not write him off, but from what I know about rugby and what I have seen so far I think Keatley is the 10 I would prefer to see starting. His kicking percentage is in the 90s so far this season too, and his physicality in both attack and defence has been very very impressive.

But who knows, I could be right, I could be wrong. It's my opinion from what I have seen and know about rugby. Not a personal witch-hunt against our greatest ever servant, and as I said already, thinking Keatley is the 10 for this season doesn't mean I appreciate what ROG has done for Munster any less than someone who wants him to start.

[ruckall]

Most Munster supporters hold ROG in very high regard. I count myself as one of those people. You're getting very carried away if you think people have it in for ROG. There is such a thing as objective criticism.

Many people who are shrewd observers think that ROG has a number of fundamental weaknesses in his game. So while they might think ROG has been a very good player for Munster, they think Keatley is potentially a much better player if given a real opportunity. I love to see an outhalf who can attack the gainline with pace/power. I see a lot of that in Keatley. I think it ties down a backrow and it sucks in the opposition centres and 10. With ROG you don't get that and it makes it much easier to defend the rest of the backline. Some people don't seem to get that. If we are looking to play a traditional Munster 10 man game then ROG is the man. He is a peerless line kicker, no question.

Another point that is worth noting is that ROG isn't the best defender available at 10. Keatley is powerful in the tackle and you can't discount that.

Also important is that ROG's time is passing fast, if not already past. It reminds me a bit of RTE. Rather than giving someone else a chance we still see people like Gay Byrne etc when we all know their time is long gone. After a very good 12+ years it's surely pragmatic to look to the future and give Keatley an extended run at 10. It doesn't mean that ROG has to be jettisoned, it means that he can play a role for Munster like he has played for Ireland the past few seasons, ie there as a backup and as a substitute if needed.

I would also be worried that after effectively getting dropped, Keatley's game will be badly disrupted, and he hasn't done much to deserve to be dropped.

[bmacky]

I think you make some extremely valid points there mr chips and I am in total agreement on the succession and rotation points. Hopefully both guys get plenty te on the field and perform over the coming months.

I do think your point regarding getting up to speed is a bit unfair. Both are professionals and should be judges as such. Ian Keatley isn't a guy that has just come off. Development contract, he is an experiences professional as is rog.

I attended two of the three ore season games and keatley was poor in both games. For me that is to be expected
And i agree with him getting a run tp find his form which he dis to an extwnt.

As i said The guy isn't a rookie and surely if you are advocating him as a starter ahead of rog then he has to be judges by the same standards? My view is that pre season is required no matter what you're level and all I am saying is that the same patience and standards are afforded to both.

The other point I would differ from you on is I actually do think what a guy has done before matters. Going into the first hec game I know that rog is up to it, the others I think will be. For me I would start with rog and give Keartley meaningful game time, if he performs better than rog then start the guy.

I, like you, would be very disappointed if one of our two out halves haven't gone along way to dislodging rog by the end of the season but I guess it's how we get there that we differ.

[Sketchy]

And can i just categorically state that I hope ROG has an absolute blinder tonight and we beat Leinster off the park in Dublin. We could really do with two 10s that can apply Penney's gameplan fighting for the jersey.

[Dowlinz]

Let's address this thing about "form", because a few people have brought it up.

Keatley had 3 awful pre-season games and a poor first half against Edinburgh which settled on "ok" when he picked it up in the 2nd. That's 3 and a half very poor performances, ROG has had 2 and a bit yet the animosity the latter has been getting for that certainly wasn't being dished out to Keatley while he was adjusting. For Keatley it was "ah sure he needs a run of games to get going", for ROG it was unacceptable after 10 minutes.
I would contest as well what people are saying that ROG has been poor, he was poor in his 10 minute cameo against Ulster and that's where I'd end with his criticism. He had a decent game against the dragons, being instrumental to our strong start that put them away. Against the Ospreys our pack was being pummeled and we had a very imbalnced set of half-backs because of Murray's injury. Those mitigating circumstances turned that game into a situation unfavourable to any outhalf and particularly to ROG, through no fault of his own. I think the chickens came home to roost in that game as to the objectivity of certain posters around here when they'd happily slate ROG behind that pack, beside strings and then praise Keatley as his wayward kicking secures the game for the hairsprays. Not to mention the fact that Ryan's fairly poor first stint went completely unmentioned while ROG's against Ulster was discussed at length for a good week.
So no, I don't accept that ROG is out of form, I accept that he can't function behind a pack getting pulverised and that the halfback combination of himself and stringer won't work in the modern game. If we plan to set out in any game with a vastly inferior pack or stringer then no, ROG shouldn't start.

[munsterforever]

ROG worries Leinster like a Wild Dog amongst Sheep. Gwan boy!

What worries me is whether ROG can adapt to the Gameplan that Penney seems to want to play in general. if we were taking on leinster 8 v 8 old munster style i wouldnt even consider anyone else but ROG ay 10 and if we had those players today and played that way we would smash them...but times have moved on...unless Penneys going to try to do something similar. If we are playing like we did against Ulster then lets be honest keatleys going to have to play. Earls too will be fine today. I reckon he will be on the scoresheet and will light up the Aviva, but ive always thought he was wing or maybe fullback if he could learn to play there...15 is a difficult position in terms of fielding and kicking. The fact is ROG is Kidneys 2 OH and I think he figures earls will be the new BOD and so we have the team that doesnt look right with downey on the bench...still, it might work today lets hope

[mr chips]

I think you make some extremely valid points there mr chips and I am in total agreement on the succession and rotation points. Hopefully both guys get plenty te on the field and perform over the coming months.

I do think your point regarding getting up to speed is a bit unfair. Both are professionals and should be judges as such. Ian Keatley isn't a guy that has just come off. Development contract, he is an experiences professional as is rog.

I attended two of the three ore season games and keatley was poor in both games. For me that is to be expected
And i agree with him getting a run tp find his form which he dis to an extwnt.

As i said The guy isn't a rookie and surely if you are advocating him as a starter ahead of rog then he has to be judges by the same standards? My view is that pre season is required no matter what you're level and all I am saying is that the same patience and standards are afforded to both.

The other point I would differ from you on is I actually do think what a guy has done before matters. Going into the first hec game I know that rog is up to it, the others I think will be. For me I would start with rog and give Keartley meaningful game time, if he performs better than rog then start the guy.

I, like you, would be very disappointed if one of our two out halves haven't gone along way to dislodging rog by the end of the season but I guess it's how we get there that we differ.

I wasn't able to attend any pre-season games, so can't offer an opinion on those unfortunately. However, I wouldn't agree that Keatley is as experienced a professional as ROG. His early development was at Connacht under Bradley - not what I would consider as nurturing an environment as Munster under Kidney for O'Gara. Keatley then came to Munster under McGahan (whose impact has generally been accepted to have been more negative than positive in terms of building on the success of the Kidney years) and never really got a proper run of games with a "first-choice" pack. O'Gara's performances last season, in spite of some incredible moments for the highlights reel, didn't IMO reach the heights of what he has achieved in the past, so I think the gap between the two is currently narrowing.

Early indications at this stage of the season are that the term "first-choice" has happily become less meaningful under Penney than under McGahan, but it's still reasonable to state that Keatley has outperformed O'Gara in the limited pitch time each of them has had to date - in league games, at least (like I say, I can't comment on the pre-season ones). Should both of them get a series of starts with the strongest pack available and show us that ROG is clearly outperforming Keatley, I'll have no hesitation in saying so. That however still wouldn't nullify the need to develop Keatley, Hanrahan or AN OTHER for the absolute inevitability of O'Gara's retirement from the game. From that perspective, ROG's understudy/ies need to be given more leeway to develop than he himself does.

[RED 49]

Good post bmacky. Although you would have to countenance that opinions on this site vary from opinions of committed fans to opinions from fans that should be committed.
Opinions are all they are, posters here are but a small percentage of munsters fanbase.
The real decisions on when Rog moves aside will i would imagine be made by the munster management team.From what i have seen so far they are doing things right and will probably get that call right too. Rog owes us as Munster fans nothing, while time waits for no man maybe we as munsterfans should wait a while before deciding that he is past it.

[brightspark]

A stopped clock is right twice a day, a lot on here are just waiting for the chance to say I told you so!
not a real stats man, but I think ROg has started only 6 games since 1st jan 2012, not a great way to build fluidity into your game.
how can people say that ROG will not be able to adapt to Penny's gameplan, when he has only played about 150 mins this season.
so called minster fans on this site were waiting for ROG make a mess of things.
dare I say it but some are secretly Hoping that we lose tonight so they can prove that they know better than Penny.

we have a word for such people down my way: Sherbet Supporters, ( cos they disappear when wet)

[cornerboy]

I think Keatley has shown that he can be effective in the Penny form of the game. ROG as a very senior player also deserves that opportunity to prove himself, Tonight is a big game for our Ronan.

[mr chips]

A stopped clock is right twice a day, a lot on here are just waiting for the chance to say I told you so!
not a real stats man, but I think ROg has started only 6 games since 1st jan 2012, not a great way to build fluidity into your game.
how can people say that ROG will not be able to adapt to Penny's gameplan, when he has only played about 150 mins this season.
so called minster fans on this site were waiting for ROG make a mess of things.
dare I say it but some are secretly Hoping that we lose tonight so they can prove that they know better than Penny.

we have a word for such people down my way: Sherbet Supporters, ( cos they disappear when wet)

I'd be extremely surprised if that was the case. It's a pity that people can't express differing but non-pejorative views about players without wild accusations of disloyalty being flung around.

[brightspark]

Read your own post #4 if you want to read what some might call wild accusations being flung around as if they were facts.
the posters I was referring to are on the match thread and of course everyone can voice an opinion, but some of the comments about some people's views on ROG being picked for this game are OTT, kidneys pick, penny slave to his masters etc.
these comments are downright disrespectful to ROG and Penny.

[Dowlinz]

Read your own post #4 if you want to read what some might call wild accusations being flung around as if they were facts.
the posters I was referring to are on the match thread and of course everyone can voice an opinion, but some of the comments about some people's views on ROG being picked for this game are OTT, kidneys pick, penny slave to his masters etc.
these comments are downright disrespectful to ROG and Penny.

That thread is comedy gold, not only are there people who believe ROG is deccie's selection but there's also someone who thinks it was an Indo journalist who pressurised Penny into selecting him. Good to see the insanity side of munsterfans is alive and well even without flanimal.

[joeriddick]

A stopped clock is right twice a day, a lot on here are just waiting for the chance to say I told you so!
not a real stats man, but I think ROg has started only 6 games since 1st jan 2012, not a great way to build fluidity into your game.
how can people say that ROG will not be able to adapt to Penny's gameplan, when he has only played about 150 mins this season.
so called minster fans on this site were waiting for ROG make a mess of things.
dare I say it but some are secretly Hoping that we lose tonight so they can prove that they know better than Penny.

we have a word for such people down my way: Sherbet Supporters, ( cos they disappear when wet)

This could not be further from the truth with regards to myself.

I hope ROG has a stormer tonight. We can have an opinion on the relative merits of players in a hypothetical situation without descending into YOUHAVEADIFFERINGOPINIONTOMEYOUMUSTBEATRAITOR.

[John123]

LOVE these kind of (pointless) threads!

[Tobyglen]

Age catches up to every man. ROG's time as first choice 10 is up unfortunately. Great servant & great man & he can still offer plenty to Munster as a back up.

[LeakyBoots]

Hi all, long time lurker but thought it was a good time to take the plunge and get involved. The main reason for getting involved has been some of the stuff written on here about ROG since the start of the season. Are people genuinely suggesting that he is past it at this stage?

The same guy who almost single handedly got us through the group phase unbeaten last year? The guy is shaking off the cob webs just as Keatley did in the three pre-season games at the start of the season. Is it ideal he has to iron out the kinks in competitive games, no? Not his or munsters call, but it has been the same for the past decade. But give the guy a break, should we all start calling time on POC if he under performs after a lengthy absence over the coming weeks?

I am somewhat encouraged by what I've seen from Keatley and even more so from JJ but would I be comfortable with either of the two of them starting ahead of ROG in the white heat of Paris next week, not unless absolutely necessary. Does that mean that if they come in over the course of the season and outperform him that they shouldn't take the spot, absolutely not. But at least let the guy get back up to match speed before you start writing him off. Jesus, it's a good thing we don't have euthanasia in Ireland or the poor guy would be for the chop!

For me, I think we are in a great spot at 10, much healthier than at any point since Warwick left and probably longer. We have a top class, experienced ten and two up and coming guys to learn from him, both of whom are Irish qualified.

I guess alli'm saying is be a bit consistent and have a bit of perspective on things. Twelve months ago Keatley was written off by many on this site and ROG could do no wrong. Now its almost a full role reversal, the truth probably lies more in the middle. ROG will soon be back to full tilt, give the guy a break. No one should be untouchable but at least give everyone a fair run at things.

I think you've seen tonight the future of Munster with ROG at 10. Can't get distance on his kicks, no break, shovels the ball into midfield and a liability in defence. The only thing is we haven't seen him with Downey at 12 (am I right in that?). But I can't see it making any difference

Time waits for no man, one of the all-time greats but time to look to the future and scale down his first-team involvement in the bigger games

[LeakyBoots]

LOVE these kind of (pointless) threads!

I don't think it's pointless now

[busby]

A mixture of age, but more importantly style. We're not the Munster of 6 years ago with the most fearsome pack in Europe needing only a conductor behind them, for which ROG was ideal. We're a team that needs to play open, dynamic rugby to make the best of what we have. It's a simple case of trying to put a square peg into a round hole picking him for this team anymore, and it's like carrying a ball and chain for the rest of the team.

Keatley showed a fantastic attitude even aside form his physical contribution. He doesn't look like the guy trying too hard or who's resigned to being 2nd choice like he was last season. We really need to give him this year to make the position his own and establish himself as a HEC level outhalf. There is no reason not to.

[mr chips]

Have to say busby I think that's all entirely reasonable. After tonight the only way I can see ROG starting is if not only Murray but also Downey start alongside him. However I still think that just won't be enough for us to dominate other sides the way we need to.

[Sketchy]

Keatley was sublime when he came on tonight. Almost played the perfect 20 minutes. A pity it wasn't 80.

This isn't a case of I told you so or any of that nonsense, but unfortunately ROG's weaknesses were exploited expertly by leinster tonight. They ran everything down his channel to great effect. We went from side to side when we were in attack. ROG is still the greatest hero we've produced in Munster history, but the future for this season is Keatley's.

[MunsterLux]

ROG was subbed 10 mins too late.

[Mcork]

Have it in for RO'G? To be honest, I was quite looking forward to ROG with a proper 12 outside him this season. However Keatley has simply been far better than him this season so far. ROG has been targetted to great effect by both Ospreys and Leinster and he has been instrumental in both defeats.

However his place seems as copper fastened as ever and now I think it's time to ask the hard questions of Penney and what is really driving his team selection. He seems very eager to please certain people with references made to 'open discussions' with Declan Kidney. What were those discussions about?

[Evil Omer]

the problem with ROG was always going to be when the positives in his game move on enough for the weaknesses to be fully exposed. So far this season that has been the case and you can argue lack of match time but POM, for example, stepped up a level tonight. As you'd expect a much younger guy to be able to do. ROG never had real pace but he had enough and the eye for a gap that when he played flat he could catch people out and set up others. He never has and never will be big enough to try that with no pace at all. So he's standing way back and then when he doesn't kick it's predictable shovelling along. The extra distance just gives even more time to the opposition. Were his kicking game a threat that'd be possibly something we could work with - but his kicking is poor at moment as well and noticeably short of range. He's posing no threat, nothing clever, no orchestration, no reduced time by standing up, nothing. That becomes a massive issue. When you add in that we know we need someone else to guard his channel against the head on charges because at best he'll only slow them, it's too much. We don't have a work horse like Wally any more. We can't spare guys who are working hard for their own position to cover him as well. There's too many negatives now, which brings me back to the original point, with ROG's game/physical attributes this was always going to happen once age kicked in.

<<Edit>> just watched highlights of the 2011 London Irish game (nearly 2 years ago now) and ROG was playing flat on the gainline, taking it up and passing to beat people - the game he's playing right now isn't a patch on that yet that is the game he needs to be playing right now.

[Clubman]

the problem with ROG was always going to be when the positives in his game move on enough for the weaknesses to be fully exposed. So far this season that has been the case and you can argue lack of match time but POM, for example, stepped up a level tonight. As you'd expect a much younger guy to be able to do. ROG never had real pace but he had enough and the eye for a gap that when he played flat he could catch people out and set up others. He never has and never will be big enough to try that with no pace at all. So he's standing way back and then when he doesn't kick it's predictable shovelling along. The extra distance just gives even more time to the opposition. Were his kicking game a threat that'd be possibly something we could work with - but his kicking is poor at moment as well and noticeably short of range. He's posing no threat, nothing clever, no orchestration, no reduced time by standing up, nothing. That becomes a massive issue. When you add in that we know we need someone else to guard his channel against the head on charges because at best he'll only slow them, it's too much. We don't have a work horse like Wally any more. We can't spare guys who are working hard for their own position to cover him as well. There's too many negatives now, which brings me back to the original point, with ROG's game/physical attributes this was always going to happen once age kicked in.

<<Edit>> just watched highlights of the 2011 London Irish game (nearly 2 years ago now) and ROG was playing flat on the gainline, taking it up and passing to beat people - the game he's playing right now isn't a patch on that yet that is the game he needs to be playing right now.

You make a compelling case. Nostalgia will never win you anything. We seem to suffer from it here in Munster. Past is past, bring on the next lot and lets move on. The Bull on TV last night had exactly that attitude. He doesn't want to be a kind of reference point, just a retired rugby player. The sooner RO'G gets that message the better. Onwards and upwars, up Munster.