Starting team after Ospreys game

[Jackdaniels]

Few eye opening performances there Saturday, not all positive.
Big test of Penny coming up. Will he make the calls we know he has to make. Will he drop the undroppables?
No one wants to have a go at any Munster player, ever, but sometimes you have to be cruel to the individual to be kind to the team.
First off, Keats has to play 10. Has to. Gets our backs going much quicker and suits the new Penny style a lot more. Murray has to be 9.

Dougie should be our 15. He should play nowhere else, but 15.
Hurley is a passenger. He gets an easy ride from many on here but its complete BS. He shouldnt be anywhere near the starting 15. Granted he played well up north, but that was rare, very rare. He was dreadful Saturday.
Dougie should be 15, end of.
Zebo did enough to keep O'Dea out for now, injured or not.
CL has to start 13. He is not a 12. If RP wants an Earls CL partnership then Earls is a better 12 than CL. But i would go with Downey and CL with Earls on the wing. Your not the Coach Keith, you dont get to pick where you play. Howlett, Earls, CL, Downey, Zebo is out best back line for now.
Kilcoyne should start at the weekend. And Sherry did fine Saturday. Line out is massive for us, we play off it so much and functioning is a massive weapon for us to start attacks, Sherry is far and away a better darts man then Varley.
BJ will make a huge difference.
Second row, Billy has done fine. Nothing spectacular, but fine, but if DR is fit one of Billy and DOC has to be dropped. Will he go for Billy and DR? Why not??
Back row........well........thats the question, and thats why Mr Penny gets paid the Euros!
Who plays in the back row? Now thats a toughie!!!

[BOK]

Agree with all that except for the Dougie at full back bit. I don't know what your basing it on, as the only game I ever recall Dougie playing FB in was the AB game. He is a mighty fine winger but definitely not a FB in my book. 9. Murray 10. Keatley 11. Zebo 12. Downey 13. Laulala 14.Dougie 15. Earls is our best backline in my opinion.

[Angus Axe]

No way should Dougie be at 15, he's a winger out and out. Wouldn't disagree with much else. Doughal back to 7 me thinks, POM at 6 or 8, and tbh I think it could be either Butler or DOC2, while they've done OK against the poorer Pro12 teams, not sure either are up to the big ones yet.

[NotreDameRFC]

Just one proviso ....people shouldn't be surprised if players just back aren't up to speed ..namely Ryan and POM....Leinster will have a few in same boat...latitude has to be given when analysing these lads post match and whats expected of them pre match.
They won't be at same level as a guy with 4/5 appearances under their belt.

Don't be surprised if one or both of them are named on bench.

[Jackdaniels]

I dont really mind Dougie on the wing so long as it doesnt mean DH at 15. He is a liability.
Earlsy did very well at 15 for the Lions so has proven he can play there at the highest level alright.
If RP is going with his strongest 15 on Saturday, and I presume he will, then so long as we see Keats at 10 and DH on the bench, I will be happy.
But, I wouldnt imagine either scenario will come to pass

[Bromance]

Howlett played a lot of rugby at 15 with Auckland and the Blues, would definitely like to see him Earlsy and Zebo or LOD in the back 3, but i feel if anyone should be at 15, it should be Keith, showed on lions tour he's attacking ability on counter and broken field. Can catch a high ball...........now, and JD CL in the centre will do well together, have so far anyway in fairness

[ruckall]

Very good original post.

Agree 100% re outhalf, Keatley has to start. This is the single biggest point for the season. This change has got to be made.

Little bit harsh on Hurley, can be very good. Earls is not strong enough defensively for FB, or centre. Good finisher on the wing, that's it. Centre partnership has to be Downey and Lualala.

[Piggybui]

Ryan really looked match unfit on Saturday. In great physical shape, but just needs a bit of game time.
I think Niall Ronan had similar issues so it meant we'd a pack made up of match unfit experienced players and young lads who have a had a bit of game time.
I suppose this means that saturdays team to meet the D4's will have a bit more shape like our starting 15 for the week after.
The jury is still out wrt ROG vs IK. Rog was behind an under-performing pack on Saturday while IK had a bit more space other days. I reckon if the ref kept the O's onside during play ROG's game would have been much different.

[outside inside]

No way should Dougie be at 15, he's a winger out and out. Wouldn't disagree with much else. Doughal back to 7 me thinks, POM at 6 or 8, and tbh I think it could be either Butler or DOC2, while they've done OK against the poorer Pro12 teams, not sure either are up to the big ones yet.

DOC2 played against Ulster away up against Ferris and Williams he outplayed both of them . That was Williams poorest performance this season, he has been outstanding in all his other matches, he was smashed by DOC2 every time he got the ball . His work rate , pace, line speed in defence and aggression in his tackling has been top notch . Pretty much everything that was missing against the O's in his and Dougals absence . For me DOC2 is has nailed down the 6 place for HC .

[Piggybui]

Very good original post.

Agree 100% re outhalf, Keatley has to start. This is the single biggest point for the season. This change has got to be made.

Little bit harsh on Hurley, can be very good. Earls is not strong enough defensively for FB, or centre. Good finisher on the wing, that's it. Centre partnership has to be Downey and Lualala.

BS. Try saving tackle on the winger in the second half (can't remember who) proves thats a load of crap. He does leave Penny with a good problem of who to select for 13.
I can't remember him letting any soft tackles through.

[BOK]

Little bit harsh on Hurley, can be very good.

Agree. I dont see him as a liability at all, he is actually quite solid, just lacks a bit of a creative spark in attack.

[glorob]

Agree with all that except for the Dougie at full back bit. I don't know what your basing it on, as the only game I ever recall Dougie playing FB in was the AB game. He is a mighty fine winger but definitely not a FB in my book. 9. Murray 10. Keatley 11. Zebo 12. Downey 13. Laulala 14.Dougie 15. Earls is our best backline in my opinion.

If our pack play like they did in the first 50 minutes against the Ospreys it will not matter who our backs are in Paris.

[Dowlinz]

Will he go for Billy and DR? Why not??

Both are LH locks in the scrum so I doubt he'd do that.

Little bit harsh on Hurley, can be very good. Earls is not strong enough defensively for FB, or centre.

Why would you need to be very strong defensively to play fullback? I think Earls is an above average defender personally and don't agree but just curious why you equate FB as a slot of equal importance for defensive ability as centre.

[Bromance]

I'd certainly rather a very threatening broken field runner and a major strike runner to a solid defender, Earls is a decent defender, with great counter attacking ability and probably our best strike runner of the entire backilne, think having him there will give another offensive weapon to our backline which is badly needed Love to see it given a crack!

Murray, Keats, Zebo, Downey, Laulala, Howlett and Earls for the leinster game

[daveyreidy]

Just on fielding ability, it has lost some of it's importance since the last set of ELVs (kick tennis). Now unless you are playing the Bokkes or Pumas the amount of times the ball is rained down on the fullback is relatively low. Also teams now seem to use box kicks from static rucks which in most cases is dealt with by the wingers, see Zebo at the weekend.

As far as playing Earls/Hurley at full back, neither tend to Lord it under the high ball Kearney style, but at the same time one Paul Warwick wasn't the best fielder of a ball either and most people thought he was a decent enough fullback.

[megladon]

For sat eve i would like to see,15 earls,14 dougie,13 casey,12 downey,11 zebo,10 keats,9 murray,8 pom,7 Dougal,6 doc2,5 ryan,4 doc,3 bj,2 Varley (if he was available) and 1 kilcoyne. With a bench of Sherry,Ryan (we seriously need to have a look at another TH prop in a serious game,if bj gets injured we r goosed),wian,billy,ronan,williams,rog and o dea.

[Downsouthdukin]

Kilcoyne
Sherry
Bj Botha
Doc
D. Ryan
O'Mahoney
Ronan
Cocklin (is he injured,if so holland in with POM to 8 and Ryan to 6
Murray
Keatley
Zebo
Downey
Casey
Howlett
Earls

[inglorious]

I was at the game last Saturday and thought POM wasn't anywhere near match fitness. He has bulked up but I thought he looked slow when Hurley threw him a pass.(62 minutes on the game clock)The ball was on the ground and he never tried to gather it. That was when Earls had to chase back to prevent a try.

[ruckall]

Last line of defence. Think of any of the very good FBs, all well able to tackle. Notable exception Serge Blanco who wasnt unlike Earls when it came to shirking the odd tackle. Simply put you have to be able to rely on FB to make tackles.

Earls has been shown several times to be weak defensively. Has missed a lot of crucial tackles over the past few seasons. If he worked on that area of his game he could become a great player. Something he's not at the moment.

[Sketchy]

Last line of defence. Think of any of the very good FBs, all well able to tackle. Notable exception Serge Blanco who wasnt unlike Earls when it came to shirking the odd tackle. Simply put you have to be able to rely on FB to make tackles.

Earls has been shown several times to be weak defensively. Has missed a lot of crucial tackles over the past few seasons. If he worked on that area of his game he could become a great player. Something he's not at the moment.

Notable exception: Rob Kearney, an awful tackler. Earls is ten times the tackler Kearney will ever be.

Gordon D'Arcy has fallen off as many tackles as Earls has recently but he is heralded for his tackling ability. Sure there was the Tuilagi tackle in the pre Wolrd Cup friendly. that was the first time he was pitted at 13 for Ireland. Earls had him in his pocket though come the 6 Nations, even though they beat us out the gate. Then there was the Hosea Gear tackle against the ABs, where out of context it looks bad. But let's take into account what happened to our other Irish Stars for the preceding 70 minutes shall we? Have you watched him play this season?

[ruckall]

Agree re darcy. BOD has also missed a truckload of tackles the past few seasons. However both these players were immense defensively for best part of a decade.

Earls was embarrassing in the key game against Wales in the world cup also. Even if you go back to games like the semi final against Leinster in 2009 Earls missed a lot of tackles. It's been a serious chink in the armour for a long time. I agree there seems to be improvement this season but haven't seen enough to think he's now as rock solid as someone like Howlett.

[John Cooper Clarke]

....Why would you need to be very strong defensively to play fullback?...

More nonsense from Dowlinz.

p.s. You need to be strong defensively in every position in rugby (including 10), but 15 is the last line of defense and an ability to hunt down an attacker and hit decisively is a prerequisite in the position. A fullback must tackle well and consistantly too.

[Sketchy]

Agree re darcy. BOD has also missed a truckload of tackles the past few seasons. However both these players were immense defensively for best part of a decade.

Earls was embarrassing in the key game against Wales in the world cup also. Even if you go back to games like the semi final against Leinster in 2009 Earls missed a lot of tackles. It's been a serious chink in the armour for a long time. I agree there seems to be improvement this season but haven't seen enough to think he's now as rock solid as someone like Howlett.

You're blaming Earls for the Davis try against Wales? I don't know about that.

And in all fairness to Earls in 2009 he was 21/22 up against the greatest 13 of all time in his prime. Earls was a kid on that team.

[Sketchy]

More nonsense from Dowlinz.

p.s. You need to be strong defensively in every position in rugby (including 10), but 15 is the last line of defense and an ability to hunt down an attacker and hit decisively is a prerequisite in the position. A fullback must tackle well and consistantly too.

Stop making sense. That's not what he's looking for.

[sparkymark]

I would have been sceptical of putting earls in at 15 against leinster as I worry about his height against kearney and the garryowen but now that kearneys out, I would be inclined to put him in. Nacewa is also very good under the high ball so this may also be a problem.

The next point is that earls may be targeted as he hasnt played at fb consistently and may be shakey initially. But I would prefer earls at 15 against leinster as he offers more attacking options since munster seem to be inclined to go from 13 to deep lying 15 alot in back moves or from 12 to deep lying 13 and 15. For this, alot of speed is required to get gains which I dont think hurley has.

I rate hurley though. Very strong, powerful runner with good hands but just doesnt have enough speed to get across the field to make tackles and add extra metres in setplays. Is good breaking the gainline in the tackle and offloading though. Remember a good few tries last year when he offloaded exquisitely to setup a winger for an easy try. Just think he struggles against faster players which leinster have in their back 3. Hurley appears to be in the mould of an offloading powerful 12 rather than a 15 with flair.

[redherring]

There's a big difference between not making tackles and pissing off because you bottled it. A prime example would be Earls being fended off easily by Manu Tuilagi in the Aviva and Kearney running away from Richie Gray in 6N. Earls isn't the best tackler but he never wilts in his decision to try to tackle someone which to me is a hell of a lot better than someone who fecks off the minute he is faced with a tackle on a bigger opponent.

[scotscor]

Surely the defence that is required in teh centre is different from that required from a full back. A centre is more likely to be facing someone coming straight at him with relatively little pace.
A full back is more likely to be needed to stop someone at full tilt coming from the side or someone with plenty of time trying to step him. Essentially when you are a top class defender at 13 you may not be at wing or at full back.

Also the ability to tackle someone that you are faster than who you are catching (as Earls did in Wales) is seperate from both of these skill sets.

For me, the only proven fit 15 we have is Hurley. We have three excellent fit wings, and three very good fit centres. I think Casey and Downey have to start, Downey as he is our only available 12, while Casey has to be at 13 because he can't play anywhere else.
Then a choice of Earls, Zebo and Dougie. On current form, Dougie should be the one to lose out, and that may happen this weekend as he needs to be rested at some stage.
So for this weekend
Wian Sherry (Varley is goosed) BJ
Dryan DOC
POM Butler Ronan
Murray Keatley
Zebo Downey Casey Earls
Hurley

Henry, Jryan,Kilcoyne, Holland, Dougal, Strings, ROG, Barnes

[Jackdaniels]

On what planet is Hurley a "proven" 15.........?
All he has ever proven to be at 15 is sh*te!

No attacking flair, no brain! its like playing Trevor Halstead at 15!
The game has moved on since 2006. You cant get away with these Anthony Horgan class backs anymore. A 15 has to have a break, has to have a threat. Hurley has none of these. He is, as someone else said above, more like an old school 12 than a 15.

We have many many quality backs, Hurley is NOT one of them. Earls or Dougie for 15.

To the lads saying Dougie never played 15.........
U do know Dougie was a rugby player prior to 2008.....dont you?????!!!!
Have a look at his stats when playing in the Super12's!!

[scotscor]

So you are looking for someone who has played 15 once in the last 5 years to be our 15. Hurley is a fine 15, has great hands and can break a tackle, he is also solid defensively as a 15, far more so than either Earls or Dougie.

[Sketchy]

JD, I think you are being unbelievably harsh on Hurley. They guy has a great rugby brain. He also has decent hands, can tackle and possesses decent strength. I do think he lacks a yard of pace to be up there at the top level as a FB though. He is not known for slicing through the defence on the counter from a clumsy territorial kick. He is very good though at linking with the backline and putting them through the gap though. But if we are to be as potent as we can be, then we need someone like Keatley, Earls, Zebo, Jones, or LOD at 15. All those guys are well capable of finding the gap and having the pace to get through it untouched. Hurley is very solid but when it comes to the Ospreys, Leinster etc, his lack of pace is much more noticeable than when we are playing a team not quite as good. But to be fair, both Leinster and Ospreys will be there or there abouts for the crunch time of the HEC.