Oh yes it's ladies night. Oct 6th 18.30 KO Team#499

[Cowboy]

Both sides with plenty to prove, I believe there is a team available to Penney to compete ferociously with our hosts next weekend and a super prep opportunity for the following 2 fixtures.

Fingers crossed both sides come through it unscathed and in form. Can't wait, best of luck to boys in blue! Let banter commence

[Waterfordlad]

Boys in Blue, Cowboy?

[Cowboy]

Boys in Blue, Cowboy?

I was afraid I'd be overtly mean if I called them ladies twice in one post.

Plus I wanted to start this thread with a positive outlook and aim for a game between (hopefully) equals.

[cornerboy]

wouldnt be wishing them hoors any luck

[Cowboy]

We are Wes Mantooth. I hate them. But damn I respect them.

[munstershane]

I hope we flake them

[Thomond78]

wouldnt be wishing them hoors any luck

Exactly. Fup 'em, and the Dorce they rode in on.

[the_dazz]

Kilcoyne
Sherry
Botha
Ryan
Holland
DOC2
Dougall
POM

Murray
Keatley

Zebo
Downey
Earls
Howlett
Hurley

Henry
DuPreez
Archer
DOC
Butler
Williams
ROG
Laulala

I'm going with Holland in the second row because last night both his and DOCs performances dropped slightly and I think DOC responds well to a good old fashioned dropping. I dont think this will happen btw! I'd ideally like to have JJ rather than ROG, Earls at 15 with Laulala 13 and ODea on the bench but also I dont think this will happen.

[joeriddick]

This is what it is for me - IK starts we win, ROG starts we lose.

I think the pack yesterday had their biggest challenge to date and there won't be many teams that beat up that Ospreys pack this season. I think Penney will have his team for the big games now.

And for Leinster that is;

Killer
Sherry (he would have started without Varley's red - his lineout work is outstanding)
BJ
DOC
D.Ryan
DOC2
Dougall
POM

Murray
Keatley

Zebo
Downey
Laulala
Howlett
Earls

We can beat Leinster on current form and with the injury troubles they have but picking ROG to start is waving the white flag because ROGball is McGahanball and vice versa.

[Cowboy]

Be under no illusions I hope we pwn them off the field.

In that vein I think Joes ( and others above him) is the strongest team we can pick at present. If they perform there is nothing suggests we can't win in Dublin

[The Last Stand]

Be under no illusions I hope we pwn them off the field.

In that vein I think Joes ( and others above him) is the strongest team we can pick at present. If they perform there is nothing suggests we can't win in Dublin

Here's hoping.

[Thomond78]

This is what it is for me - IK starts we win, ROG starts we lose.I think the pack yesterday had their biggest challenge to date and there won't be many teams that beat up that Ospreys pack this season. I think Penney will have his team for the big games now.And for Leinster that is;KillerSherry (he would have started without Varley's red - his lineout work is outstanding)BJDOCD.RyanDOC2DougallPOMMurrayKeatley ZeboDowneyLaulalaHowlettEarlsWe can beat Leinster on current form and with the injury troubles they have but picking ROG to start is waving the white flag because ROGball is McGahanball and vice versa.

Disagree. Keatley with Laulala at 12 won't work; ROG with Downey 12 very well might. The key is: Downey at 12. With a line-breaker at 12, we play rugby and our pack have a target; with a stepper at 12, we play McGahanball, and our pack goes backwards. And that applies irrespective of the 10. Dorce is, I think, most likely out. Fire Downey into McFadden, with Hurley, POM and Earls on his shoulders. Wash, rinse, repeat. That's the key.

[FORWARD....]

This is what it is for me - IK starts we win, ROG starts we lose.

I think the pack yesterday had their biggest challenge to date and there won't be many teams that beat up that Ospreys pack this season. I think Penney will have his team for the big games now.

And for Leinster that is;

Killer
Sherry (he would have started without Varley's red - his lineout work is outstanding)
BJ
DOC
D.Ryan
DOC2
Dougall
POM

Murray
Keatley

Zebo
Downey
Laulala
Howlett
Earls

We can beat Leinster on current form and with the injury troubles they have but picking ROG to start is waving the white flag because ROGball is McGahanball and vice versa.

I like this team. Looking forward to this now. Just donated a few more euros to TM profits. 23 euros handling for 4 seats..... C'mon Munster

[HenryFitz]

Earls hasn't played 15 yet this season. Why would he be suddenly dropped in there, just as the important stuff is about to get under way?

[Cowboy]

Has Kilcoyne the technique to neutralise Ross?

If Paulie benches who loses out?

Keats has to start if Murr is still dazed, we need threats at halfback.

Big weekend for Sherry.

This is going to be some game, both sides well bate this weekend.

[FORWARD....]

Disagree. Keatley with Laulala at 12 won't work; ROG with Downey 12 very well might. The key is: Downey at 12. With a line-breaker at 12, we play rugby and our pack have a target; with a stepper at 12, we play McGahanball, and our pack goes backwards. And that applies irrespective of the 10. Dorce is, I think, most likely out. Fire Downey into McFadden, with Hurley, POM and Earls on his shoulders. Wash, rinse, repeat. That's the key.

Wasn't McFadden on the wing on Friday? I hope they play him there.

[Cowboy]

Earls hasn't played 15 yet this season. Why would he be suddenly dropped in there, just as the important stuff is about to get under way?

Valid point. Keith had a good game in Wales and this could be a chance for him to test himself against the master.

The selection of 1-10 is what's critical, Laulala at 12 is an experiment not worth repeating in Dublin.

[Thomond78]

Wasn't McFadden on the wing on Friday? I hope they play him there.

He was, but right now they're learning why you don't sell pints on Good Friday, so they've not much choice. Kearney's out, too.

[joeriddick]

Disagree. Keatley with Laulala at 12 won't work; ROG with Downey 12 very well might. The key is: Downey at 12. With a line-breaker at 12, we play rugby and our pack have a target; with a stepper at 12, we play McGahanball, and our pack goes backwards. And that applies irrespective of the 10. Dorce is, I think, most likely out. Fire Downey into McFadden, with Hurley, POM and Earls on his shoulders. Wash, rinse, repeat. That's the key.

I agree with all of this bar the implication that ROG should start.

It might sound like I'm sh!tting on ROG here, but I'm not - his game is his game and it always has been. My argument is that ROG is a last 20 player at this point in his career with the game the way it is because that's where his skill set will be most effective. We're leading? Great, ROG will put the ball in the corners and kick any penalties our (hopefully) fired up pack will squeeze out of the opposition. We're losing? Damn, well, hopefully ROG will kick us into the corner where our pack will squeeze the life out the tired opposition (they'll have to be tired, if they're leading against us) and kick the penalties.

Is O'Gara's passing that much better than Keatley? I'm not sure. I'd prefer to see Downey running down McFadden's throat at full pelt from two yards then watching him smashing into McFadden and McLaughlin from 15 yards back.

[joeriddick]

Earls hasn't played 15 yet this season. Why would he be suddenly dropped in there, just as the important stuff is about to get under way?

If we take it that this is a precursor to the HEC we need to see if we can fit all of our attacking weapons on the field.

Earls can play full back, it keeps a big physical, excellent passing player at 13 and it allows Earls to do what he does best - break the line and finish.

Earls is a good 13 and he might well make the 13 shirt his own during the year but at the moment, maybe Laulala, Downey and Earls is worth looking at against a team like Leinster with problems in the centre.

[Thomond78]

I agree with all of this bar the implication that ROG should start. It might sound like I'm sh!tting on ROG here, but I'm not - his game is his game and it always has been. My argument is that ROG is a last 20 player at this point in his career with the game the way it is because that's where his skill set will be most effective. We're leading? Great, ROG will put the ball in the corners and kick any penalties our (hopefully) fired up pack will squeeze out of the opposition. We're losing? Damn, well, hopefully ROG will kick us into the corner where our pack will squeeze the life out the tired opposition (they'll have to be tired, if they're leading against us) and kick the penalties. Is O'Gara's passing that much better than Keatley? I'm not sure. I'd prefer to see Downey running down McFadden's throat at full pelt from two yards then watching him smashing into McFadden and McLaughlin from 15 yards back.

You may well be right, Joe: but I'm making the point the obsessing here about the 10 slot is largely by the bye, because the key is the 12, just as it was last year. Set a target from there, the rest follows. Downey, Barnes and Dineen are more important to us than who plays 10.Bluntly, I think it makes little odds who starts 10, so long as our 12 is right.

[Moll Mason]

Cannot understand the critisism at ROG after Sat's game. Our pack were beaten up and no fly half would have made a difference. Forget about who playts at 10, unless we stop being mullaghed in the forwards we have no hope. Hopefully the cavelry who came on afer 55 minutes can sort things out. After sat's game I think Penny will know who will not be in his starting line up for the big games

[joeriddick]

You may well be right, Joe: but I'm making the point the obsessing here about the 10 slot is largely by the bye, because the key is the 12, just as it was last year. Set a target from there, the rest follows. Downey, Barnes and Dineen are more important to us than who plays 10.

That's a good point. I'd love to see Dineen and Barnes take Downey's game as a template and go down that route - especially Dineen, who looks like he has that physique.

My point about 10 is that on yesterdays evidence, whoever plays at 10 determines where our 12 receives the ball and how much space he then has to plow into.

[Cowboy]

That's a good point. I'd love to see Dineen and Barnes take Downey's game as a template and go down that route - especially Dineen, who looks like he has that physique.

My point about 10 is that on yesterdays evidence, whoever plays at 10 determines where our 12 receives the ball and how much space he then has to plow into.

As Moll said though, our pack were hockeyed and the sprays were a yard at least offside at all times. Those two elements ensured Rog was always going to drop deep.

We need to figure out how to manage attacking against an aggressive rush D even when the fatties are overpowered. Ireland have the same problems

[joeriddick]

Cannot understand the critisism at ROG after Sat's game. Our pack were beaten up and no fly half would have made a difference. Forget about who playts at 10, unless we stop being mullaghed in the forwards we have no hope. Hopefully the cavelry who came on afer 55 minutes can sort things out. After sat's game I think Penny will know who will not be in his starting line up for the big games

ROG had plenty of clean ball off ruck and line out and did absolutely nothing with it. We got nailed in the scrum, yes, but it was 55/45 in contact and we had our own way at line out.

As Moll said though, our pack were hockeyed and the sprays were a yard at least offside at all times. Those two elements ensured Rog was always going to drop deep.

We need to figure out how to manage attacking against an aggressive rush D even when the fatties are overpowered. Ireland have the same problems

They could rush with impunity because they knew that ROG was unlikely to break a tackle and that a dink over the top is a lottery that a good full back will cover.

[Thomond78]

That's a good point. I'd love to see Dineen and Barnes take Downey's game as a template and go down that route - especially Dineen, who looks like he has that physique. My point about 10 is that on yesterdays evidence, whoever plays at 10 determines where our 12 receives the ball and how much space he then has to plow into.

I'm not so sure, because we've been here before. Line-breaker 12 + stepper 13 = flat + forwards have a target = Hooray, 2008!Stepper 13 at 12 = deep plus lateral = Poo, McGahanball again. Solve the equation, and you get: line breaker 12 = flat + target = Hooray!

[Mcork]

You may well be right, Joe: but I'm making the point the obsessing here about the 10 slot is largely by the bye, because the key is the 12, just as it was last year. Set a target from there, the rest follows. Downey, Barnes and Dineen are more important to us than who plays 10.Bluntly, I think it makes little odds who starts 10, so long as our 12 is right.

Not so sure about this argument. While I agree 100% that Downey will make life easier for ROG by giving him an easy target off slow ball which he didn't have last night, I'd question whether Downey would be as effective if part of his job description is to make up for ROG's lack of break. Downey has been brilliant this season outside Keatley and had his quietest day v the Dragons with ROG at 10. I still think if we are to play the game Penney wants, then every player in our backline needs to be able to exploit a gap and pass as required.

[Mcork]

I'm not so sure, because we've been here before. Line-breaker 12 + stepper 13 = flat + forwards have a target = Hooray, 2008!Stepper 13 at 12 = deep plus lateral = Poo, McGahanball again. Solve the equation, and you get: line breaker 12 = flat + target = Hooray!

Misiing one vital component though Big mean pack with no peers in Europe + Line-breaker 12 + stepper 13 = flat + forwards have a target = Hooray, 2008

That is something we don't have now and it makes a big difference.

[Leinsterdan]

You can't beat a Leinster Munster game. Hopefully it will be a savage affair and that it's true that form goes out the window in derby matches because we have been sh1te so far this season. Last night was heartening ahead of Saturday on your handling errors and stupid decisions but to be fair you were in the game for a good while against a tough side. Not really sure Howlett is correct call as captain as looked to be all at sea at times but could be wrong.

Technically ladies night is on a Friday night, thought you romantics down south would be well aware of that.

[joeriddick]

I'm not so sure, because we've been here before. Line-breaker 12 + stepper 13 = flat + forwards have a target = Hooray, 2008!Stepper 13 at 12 = deep plus lateral = Poo, McGahanball again. Solve the equation, and you get: line breaker 12 = flat + target = Hooray!

Ha, nice!

I'll concur with McCork here though - the day when ROG could be accommodated by two or three others splicing their own games is gone, I think.

Penney's game works best (I think) when everybody's defensive channel is perceived to be a one man job.