Ospreys V Munster. Sept 29 6.30 Team post # 127

[Old Dog]

Sorry but you are now just launching a personal attack on a player you obviously dislike. ROG was very poor tonight, just accept it. Maybe you disagree that his time is up but surely now you must accept he's not 1st choice.

ROG will be Munster's first choice out half unless and until Kidney tells Penney otherwise.

(as far as I know, ROG's IRFU contract extension runs until end-2013)

[overthehillprop]

ROG will be Munster's first choice out half unless and until Kidney tells Penney otherwise.

Thats part of the problem and Earls will be at 13 for that reason as well.

[Thomond78]

It does not really matter. If the pack are beaten up the game is almost certainly lost and there is little or nothing the 9 & 10 can do about it.

Rubbish .

Once again you choose to interpret a post to suit the point you will make in reply. Show me EXACTLY where I claimed it was rubbish that forwards win games ? and I mean EXACTLY ,not an interpretation from your imagination.

I have played behind beaten packs and have won and lost games. I have played behind packs that have been dominant and still won and lost games. Sport has a habit of being funny like that.

If a pack is being twatted- I expect an experienced international 9 and 10 - when they get clean ball -( and they got plenty of that this evening, especially from lineouts, to be able to utilize it. They did not, between chucking ball left and right to dink kicks , to not doing what you are noted for - kicking corners),..

Not that it matters , you are always right anyway. I am happy to concede.

There you go.

[Dumptruck]

Thats part of the problem and Earls will be at 13 for that reason as well.

I wouldn't be so sure on either to be honest. Penney has had POSITIVE discussions with Kidney so far and they have been called Robust discussions.

[blackwarrior]

That's the back row I'd hope to see too. 3 fellas playing positions they're comfortable with.

The DOC2, Dougall, POM backrow looks great on paper, but 2/3rds of it is untested in HEC.

Unless DOC2 and/or Dougall shine next week, they won't start in Paris. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I expect Paris to be POM, Ronan and Butler - one HEC debutant in the BR is all Penney is going to try.

[Cowboy]

can't have Stringer and ROG on at the same time and if ROG is at 10 we need the physicality of Downey (or maybe even Dineen) at 12.

Or even Niall Ronan at 12? As a clinch/emergency cover he's almost identical to Downey physically and some if his strengths are same as Downeys (brutish, good hands outta tackle and he has pace)

There's often talk about back rowers as centres on here, but this is one half baked idea I'd love to see.

[Dumptruck]

There you go.

Again.. Where - word for word did I write - Rubbish- forwards don't win games ?

and again you choose to ignore the word ALMOST in Glorobs post. At this point I must agree with Old Dog, ...

Repeating bluster doesn't stop it being bluster.


Now , I bid you good evening.

[Mcork]

One caveat for Penney- he didn't pick Strings and ROG together....an unfortunate clash of heads caused it

True. It had the feeling that once Murray went off, ROG should have gone with him. It would have been a big call but it was our only chance of winning the game. Having 2 non breaking half backs against the O's was suicidal. The changes were made far too late to save the game.

Look, we've praised Penney to death so far and tonight was his first real mistakes. But they were bad mistakes and he has to show that he can learn quickly from them. We were putrid tonight and it was directly linked to the selection. What will make a coach is how he responds to his mistakes rather than how he responds to success.

[Waterfordlad]

Shambolic performance, it's not PC to say it but O'Gara is finished.

Penney out.

Sorry but you need more than 7 posts before you can dis the coach and a ligind in the same post

Dem's the rules

[John Cooper Clarke]

Ah stop it DT.

We all know it's quantity and repitition both on here and on Gwlad and elsewhere that count. The truth isn't that important.

Shout loud enough, and often enough on the web and you become an unimpeachable albeit self appointed guru.

[Thomond78]

Thats part of the problem and Earls will be at 13 for that reason as well.

Let's see how he goes with Downey.

And let's collectively calm down. We put out a largely second-string pack against basically the full Ospreys team in Swansea. We were always going to lose by 5-10. That elements of idiocy screwed it up when we'd clawed ourselves back into contention is infuriating, but better a kick up the arse now than in two weeks' time. Or, God forbid, April.

[Cowboy]

The DOC2, Dougall, POM backrow looks great on paper, but 2/3rds of it is untested in HEC.

Unless DOC2 and/or Dougall shine next week, they won't start in Paris. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I expect Paris to be POM, Ronan and Butler - one HEC debutant in the BR is all Penney is going to try.

I see what you're saying BW, they'll have to be tested at some stage but you may be right it could be a chasm too far. I suppose our flankers were completely outplayed by two talented welshers tonight and there's the possibility that the back row that played in Belfast for us was much better as a unit than tonight (Cawlin is a huge loss)

[Thomond78]

Again.. Where - word for word did I write - Rubbish- forwards don't win games ?

and again you choose to ignore the word ALMOST in Glorobs post. At this point I must agree with Old Dog, ...

Repeating bluster doesn't stop it being bluster.


Now , I bid you good evening.

What I said was: Glorob pointed out if the pack gets twatted, there's not much the halfbacks can do.

You claimed it was rubbish that forwards win games.

The Os pack did just that tonight.

Which we have just shown is EXACTLY what you did say. Misquoting? Take the plank out of your own eye first, buddy boy.

[overthehillprop]

I wouldn't be so sure on either to be honest. Penney has had POSITIVE discussions with Kidney so far and they have been called Robust discussions.

Robust is management speak for "we nearly came to blows about it" and positive is management speak for "i got my ass handed to me but I'm not going to tell you that".

The next statement on the matter will contain the phrase "unilateral agreement" and "in the best interests of irish rugby".

[Dumptruck]

What I said was: Glorob pointed out if the pack gets twatted, there's not much the halfbacks can do.

You claimed it was rubbish that forwards win games.

The Os pack did just that tonight.

Which we have just shown is EXACTLY what you did say. Misquoting? Take the plank out of your own eye first, buddy boy.

Again... Show me- Exactly- word for word , where I wrote - Rubbish- to forwards win games. ? You won't, and cannot because it is not there - anywhere. You consistently ignore the the word ALMOST in Glorobs post . You consistently choose to interpret posts to suit your own argument. You have shown EXACTLY nothing. I am certainly not your buddy and far from being a boy.

Use the Chewbacca defence all you like.

[Mcork]

And let's collectively calm down. We put out a largely second-string pack against basically the full Ospreys team in Swansea. We were always going to lose by 5-10. That elements of idiocy screwed it up when we'd clawed ourselves back into contention is infuriating, but better a kick up the arse now than in two weeks' time. Or, God forbid, April.

I think Penney didn't give a damn about what happened here last season and maybe he's right to feel that way but he picked a seriously understrenght team and we paid the price versus a team that many of us fans wanted us desperately to beat.

He can be forgiven that but now, the serious stuff begins. And the guy must make decisions on what his best team is and just trust them. I said earlier that ROG's performance and the selection next week would tell a lot about how sucessful Penney will be. Well RO'G was very poor tonight and if he's picked against Leinster, then that is proof positive that central contracting is having a very damaging influence on Munster rugby. Penney will not survive that. That will have a very damaging influence on squad morale if it happens. The slection at OH next week has huge implications for Munster rugby.

[John Cooper Clarke]

Again... Show me- Exactly- word for word , where I wrote - Rubbish- to forwards win games. ? You won't, and cannot because it is not there - anywhere. You consistently ignore the the word ALMOST in Glorobs post . You consistently choose to interpret posts to suit your own argument. You have shown EXACTLY nothing. I am certainly not your buddy and far from being a boy.

Use the Chewbacca defence all you like.

He'll be complaing to his favorite mod next.

[lactose intolerant]

Again... Show me- Exactly- word for word , where I wrote - Rubbish- to forwards win games. ? You won't, and cannot because it is not there - anywhere. You consistently ignore the the word ALMOST in Glorobs post . You consistently choose to interpret posts to suit your own argument. You have shown EXACTLY nothing. I am certainly not your buddy and far from being a boy.

Use the Chewbacca defence all you like.

Can the two of ye agree to disagree and just shut the **** up already

[Old Dog]

Can the two of ye agree to disagree and just shut the **** up already

And will you kindly buy a dictionary and look up "caveat" because you haven't a frigging clue what it means.

(And neither have the people who 'thanked' you for that post!)

[lactose intolerant]

And will you kindly buy a dictionary and look up "caveat" because you haven't a frigging clue what it means.

(And neither have the people who 'thanked' you for that post!)

Indubitably!! (knew that was you)

[Dumptruck]

And will you kindly buy a dictionary and look up "caveat" because you haven't a frigging clue what it means.

(And neither have the people who 'thanked' you for that post!)

Fish eggs they are :-)

[Dumptruck]

Can the two of ye agree to disagree and just shut the **** up already

I already have Sir.

[Blindsider.]

Any vid of Varley's kick/stamp?

RTE last night had nothing - there was one short slo-mo after Varley was sent off, and that didn't look like a red to me (a different angle might offer more evidence).

[Thomond78]

Don't particularly care, to be honest. Varley has blown it, for me. Too much indiscipline, too little accuracy, from someone more than old enough and experienced to know better. At nearly 30, he's a wasting asset who won't, or can't, learn and who hasn't stepped up. I'd give Henry time ahead of him.

[Ragusa]

Any vid of Varley's kick/stamp?

RTE last night had nothing - there was one short slo-mo after Varley was sent off, and that didn't look like a red to me (a different angle might offer more evidence).

from what I saw on the replay it could not be considered to be deliberate - careless maybe. I think he got the other player in the goolies in the ruck..............

[John Cooper Clarke]

from what I saw on the replay it could not be considered to be deliberate - careless maybe. I think he got the other player in the goolies in the ruck..............

He was sent off for a kick to the head though.

[mr chips]

Why not just save a doc with blanket praise for Kilcoyne, POM, Ryan, Earls, Keatley, Hurley and Downey and paste it after every match? It'd save you a lot of time typing out the same stuff every time.
Some people have their darlings around here (they tend to be the same darlings) and praise them regardless of what happens, on nights like tonight the praise at any cost for a few of those players is particularly revealing. It does sound whatever match you were watching where all your favourite players had landmark showings was more pleasant than the one I saw.

(Shakes ironyometer) Is this thing on?

Kilcoyne offered us more aggression in broken play and led more line breaks than Du Preez, a player I rate pretty highly but who I thought was fairly anonymous yesterday. I didn't mention POM or Ryan as it happens, but sure carry on.

Anyway - both ROG and Howlett are players I hugely respect and admire, but it would be delusional to deny that they both had a poor game. Sadly ROG has been below his own high standards for three games in a row now, and yesterday was his worst showing out of those three. My only interest is in the quality of performance, and of those who started we really only got that from Earls and Zebo yesterday. As for Strings, box kick aside I don't think he was as poor as one or two here have said, but I have to agree that the days of himself and ROG running a game for us are over, even if Downey was the starting 12. Sad but true.

By the way, the point about looking for positives from a poor performance is to identify players who don't panic or let the heads drop when things aren't going their way, taking a view to the rest of the season. This game was not a must-win - sure, it'd be nicer if we had won, especially in the Liberty, but the fresh start with a new coach is a process, not a one-off event. It was worth getting the "Casey at 12" experiment out of the way, just as it was worth leaving Archer on the field to see how he coped under pressure - and give him the learning experience, I suppose, even though I think he has to start delivering on the lessons he's learned in previous seasons.

Anyone found a clip of the Varley incident? I'd like to see it for myself, but assuming the red was justified, we'll be missing his presence in the scrum for a while - especially at hooker ...

[Paddy Whac]

Terribly disappointed with the display and at the breakdown, the loss was almost to be expected but the manner of the loss is what kills me. I'd love to see the stats for turnovers, we just couldn't seem to string a few phases together without losing the ball.

The experiment of Laulala at 12 didn't work, so he probably get the 13 shirt and Earls will be used where is most needed for a particular game.

[sodacookie]

4 THOUGHTS

1: Stringer has played himself out of the 1st team squad. His pass is a thing of predictable beauty, for Munster and whoever they're playing. It's Murray and Williams for me, from here on out.

2: The game has finally moved beyond ROG. His place kicking is still outstanding but his downside is overshadowing his up side at the moment. His tactical kicking tonight was poor, he stood a mile behind the gain line and his passing was just a means to stop himself from being turned over - that is to say, it served no purpose other than shipping it to the man next to him.

We were spoiled for years with Wallace and Quinlan minding his back but those days, and that game, are gone. He's a bench option now, for me, and one that could be valuable if used correctly. Keatley brought more attacking threat to the side tonight in his short cameo. So Keatley starts.

3: James Downey is the key to Munster's success this year. Without him, or a player like him (Dineen, perhaps?), we're back to shuffling sideways into crowds of defenders like the last three years. Laulala should never wear 12 again because he's not a 12, he's a bloody good 13.

4: Earls might be best utilized at full back. He's solid under the high ball, he's our best pace strike runner and, as that tackle tonight proves, he's our best last ditch defender. We know he can play there, and play there well - so why not? Hurley is adequate but on tonight's showing he might not be a top level option. Earls doesn't deserve to lose out on the 13 shirt, but if he's the best 15 then that's where he should go.

spot On joeriddick ..each of you're arguments makes sense and is quie achievable, agree also with other posts on what has went wrong since our internationals have returned also 2 training camps does not help matters the sooner a new one is up and running the better

[Ragusa]

Bit disappointed with the Backs play last evening. Felt at times until Keatley came on that we were back in last season with balls going across the pitch and ending up nowhere.The loss of Murray put Munster back in a time warp. As regards the forwards were they that bad ? Does DOC at this stage know how to defend a potential lineout maul or not ? He must know but why did he not take charge. They were being flaked out by the poor back play and mistakes which they had to cover. Any video of last year would show the way the Os operate and the last match last year with them needed to be digested that across the pitch suited them so if ROG was going to play that way then a beating was on the cards. Foley should have advised against these tactics. Penney will have learned a lot from last night and next week he will have to ring the changes !!!!