33-strong Ireland squad for a two day training and preparation camp

[Clubman]

Perhaps but Kidney has probably has more power to make calls against CC's than the provincial coaches. Kidney is a deep conservative with a questionable judgement on players form. He has his way of doing things and those supporting him to the hilt, will point with some justification to his record as a coach over the years which is still very good overall. It's really the last couple of seasons where we have seen the team really fade as a force (well below where we should be) with the odd big performance to fool everybody into believeing we've turned the corner.

Now where did we see that scene enacted in the not too distant past? And when that coach got his marching orders was there a raft of top coaches applying for the Ireland job? What self respecting top coach would subject himself to interrogation after matches by the likes of Pa Whelan and others of that ilk?

Kidney, like the man before him oeprates to diktat, that of one Edward Wigglesworth a boIIox of the highest order. I used blame Browne for Irelands lack of ambition, but the likes of this guy are embedded in there in careers and are not for shifting, nor sadly, is there any move to shift them likely to happen anytime soon. They are the ones that say promising players can't be selected unless they have been through all "The Programmes".

But you're still right about Kidney and perhaps that situation suits his lack of an adventurous spirit and even disdain for any kind of risk taking on the field. Ask D Ryan if in doubt.

[Hugonaut]

Kidney, like the man before him oeprates to diktat, that of one Edward Wigglesworth a boIIox of the highest order. I used blame Browne for Irelands lack of ambition, but the likes of this guy are embedded in there in careers and are not for shifting, nor sadly, is there any move to shift them likely to happen anytime soon. They are the ones that say promising players can't be selected unless they have been through all "The Programmes".

That's nonsense. Kidney selects the team and the squads. The idea that he has to run them by Wigglesworth [or Brown or Whelan] and that those lads have a veto on players is complete and utter tripe. They don't.

[99_oK?]

Played early in season. Injured (calf?) in training before Blues match and returning this week. Would you care to take money he'll get 20/30 minutes v the Dragons and then if he gets through be called up? - I'm sure he will if fit.....
Also, as for no FBs selected. I'd watch the Dragons v Ulster and see who we intend to....play... there for 1 game..... while JP is rotated/rested

Afoa is the starting THP for Ulster, and he's bloody good too. Fitz may be a decent prospect if/when fit, but will he ever get enough gametime to get up to speed re. match form and fitness to compete at the higher level of test rugby? I know we have the same issue with both prop positions in Munster, but at least Kilcoyne is now starting to look like he may make it. Archer still hasn't made it consistently against the best, but what is the answer? who knows......

As for FB, if you mention that Jared is now Irish qualified - I assume that's what you mean..... - you'll start another row as big as the RS one...!

[99_oK?]

That's nonsense. Kidney selects the team and the squads. The idea that he has to run them by Wigglesworth [or Brown or Whelan] and that those lads have a veto on players is complete and utter tripe. They don't.

Hugo,
Lot of 'behind the scenes' stuff goes on when picking Irish squads/teams. Always has, seemingly always will. Old days it used to be so many from each 'field', now it's slightly more complicated. Having the likes of D'Arcy or O'Gara impeding (that's the most accurate term I can come up with...) the progress of Irish rugby in general and particular players is ludicrous, but it plainly is happening. Whether it's EW or DK doesn't matter a whit, even listening to AJP Ward tonight as I drove home I just thought what nonsense from a person who knows what it's like to be seen as 'not suitable...'.

We have problems and thsi squad selection confirms it.

[The Outlaw]

Don't mind ROG over Keatley, RO'G over young Jackson is the real scandal. I thought that Jackson would be picked because it was impossible to ignore the form he's in. However Kidney has stayed true to his convictions on this one. No other top 8 rugby nation would persist with a player in his late thirties and obviously in a poor run of form as a back-up OH. It does not make any sense. Sexton (who is not in great form himself) will start, why do we need RO'G there? That position should be about developing.

L. Marshall over his namesake is also strange. OK our need is greater at 12 but he's not been starting with Ulster in the last few weeks. Downey ignored again, age is a laughable excuse (the one Kidney gave for not including himin NZ tour squad) when you consider ROG's position in the squad. The boat has sailed for Downey now

Henderson & Kilcoyn are good calls though and both thoroughly deserve their call ups - let's hope they actually get some gametime.

Anyway, I wouldn't be too upset as Kidney is who he is and he's on his last hurrah. Less Kiss is a Austrailian rugby league player turned RU coach and we've seen the result of that type of coaching combination on backplay of other Irish teams. Don't expect too many line breaks or you'll be dissapointed. I guess we'll see some sort of reaction to the 60-0 loss and perhaps even a win v SA as they surely be in development. Normal service will have resumed by the 6n's though I suspect.

Dont agree on all of that.

Downey hasnt done enough in the last few weeks to get picked.

Jackson should be there though.

Also think Keatley recently hasnt done enough either.

You cant just hand caps out either. I'm not a kidney fan either. But Henderson and Kilcoyne have performed and have been included.

jackson is really the only omission for me. I dont believe Marshall is better then either Murray or Reddan. i think he's just a little bit short for international rugby

[The Outlaw]

As regards Omissions.

Rob Henshaw is fairly glaring. Form full-back in Ireland

[garryowen2323]

The Wallabies squad for the 2012 Spring Tour is:

Player Position State Age Appearances

Ben Alexander	Prop	Brumbies	27	45
Adam Ashley-Cooper	Fullback-Wing-Midfield	NSW Waratahs	28	73
Berrick Barnes	Flyhalf/Inside Centre	NSW Waratahs	26	46
Kurtley Beale	Flyhalf/Fullback	Melbourne Rebels	23	32
Nick Cummins	Wing	Western Force	25	2
Dave Dennis	Loose Forward	NSW Waratahs	26	11
Kane Douglas	Lock	NSW Waratahs	23	4
Anthony Fainga’a	Centre	Queensland Reds	25	23
Liam Gill	Flanker	Queensland Reds	20	6
James Hanson	Hooker	Queensland Reds	24	1
Mike Harris	Fullback/Inside Centre/Flyhalf	Queensland Reds	24	6
Michael Hooper	Flanker	NSW Waratahs	20	9
Digby Ioane	Wing	Queensland Reds	27	31
Sekope Kepu	Prop	NSW Waratahs	26	18
Pat McCabe	Inside Centre	Brumbies	24	18
Drew Mitchell	Wing	NSW Waratahs	28	60
Stephen Moore	Hooker	Brumbies	29	72
Wycliff Palu	No 8	NSW Waratahs	30	42
Nick Phipps	Halfback	Melbourne Rebels	23	8
David Pocock	Flanker	Brumbies	24	45
Tatafu Polota-Nau	Hooker	NSW Waratahs	27	41
Benn Robinson	Prop	NSW Waratahs	28	52
Paddy Ryan	Prop	NSW Waratahs	24	Uncapped
Radike Samo	Loose Forward	Queensland Reds	36	22
Nathan Sharpe (c)	Lock	Western Force	34	112
Brett Sheehan	Halfback	Western Force	33	6
Rob Simmons	Lock	Queensland Reds	23	22
James Slipper	Prop	Queensland Reds	23	30
Ben Tapuai	Centre	Queensland Reds	23	3
Sitaleki Timani	Lock	NSW Waratahs	26	8

[Munsterboy]

Not the same but it amounts to the same thing. Crikey Brian Smith had even been capped by Australia before he came to Ireland.

Well the significant difference is that all of those lads had direct Irish connections. They didn't come to Ireland on a promise of a cap having had no prior relationship with the country. If it's just a matter of importing the best we can afford, what's the point?

[lukic]

Must admit feel sorry for James Coughlan , every time he has played well and has a realistic chance of making the panel he ends up injured , with age not on his side i fear that this could of been his last chance to wear the green of ireland and represent the Ireland senior team something i think he deserves for his performances in the last few seasons , Munsters mister consistency and a player i think would even bring more out of heaslip and the other no.8's when challenging for the 8 jersey. Heaslip has dipped in form internationally and i reckon it laziness as no-one gets picked that is realistically on form going to take his place , not sure but i think Coughlan was the only player who won a province player of the year to make the wc squad , might be wrong there but think he was

[McCloud]

Penney tips Kilcoyne for 'long career in green jersey'
By John Fallon


Thursday October 25 2012




MUNSTER coach Rob Penney has tipped Dave Kilcoyne for a long international career after the prop was included in the Irish squad for the first time -- less than a year after making his provincial debut.


The 23-year-old, who is in his first full-time contract with Munster having been in the academy for two years, has earned the call-up on the back of several solid displays this season -- he has started both Heineken Cup clashes.


Keith Earls and Ronan O'Gara are both included in the squad despite injury, but Penney said they should recover and be available for some of the autumn internationals.


The Munster coach said that the strides made by Kilcoyne was an example to young players of how quickly they can scale the ladder.


"It is fantastic, it is really exciting. It shows with perseverance and a guy who has committed himself totally to the game and gives it everything every week, the wider rewards can come.


"He has had some harsh calls (from referees) and we highlighted that, but he is a great kid and should have a long career in the green jersey," added Penney, who wants his side to build on their emphatic Heineken Cup over Edinburgh by winning their first game in three in the Pro12 against Zebre tomorrow night.


Meanwhile, Felix Jones, who came off the bench against Edinburgh for his first action since injuring his shoulder in May, said his main priority now was getting game-time with Munster after a succession of serious injuries over the past few seasons.


The loss of Rob Kearney for the autumn internationals and the ongoing injury to Earls has created an opening at full-back, but Jones is focusing on Munster for now.


"I'm just happy to be back. It has been another long lay-off and I'm fully aware of how lucky I am each time to get back and get back playing. Just even to get out on the pitch and train is a success in itself," said the three-times capped 25-year-old.


- John Fallon


Irish Independent

[McCloud]

Earls forced to switch again as Kearney leaves gaping void
By Tony Ward


Thursday October 25 2012




THE new faces who appear in the first international squad of the season are always the focus of attention, so there will be plenty of limelight shone upon loose-head prop David Kilcoyne, newly naturalised hooker Richardt Strauss and the young Ulster duo of utility forward Iain Henderson and centre Luke Marshall.


But the real issue and area of most concern surrounds full-back, with Rob Kearney laid low and Gavin Duffy also out of contention. The options in the last line of defence are worryingly low.


Ireland coach Declan Kidney acknowledged that Felix Jones will have the opportunity to put himself in the reckoning once he comes through Munster's Pro12 game against Zebre in Thomond Park tomorrow night.


However, it is a real concern that, as it stands, Keith Earls is the only recognised player in the squad capable of filling that slot.


Earls (right) has come to Kidney's rescue in the past and will do so again if needs be in the coming weeks.


Yet, how ironic that having declared his desire to new Munster head coach Rob Penney to be an out-and-out centre, as opposed to wing, it could well be in another position (full-back) that he finds himself when the Ireland XV runs out to face South Africa in little over a fortnight's time.


To add to this conundrum, the Limerick man -- whose stance on his centre aspirations I fully support -- is himself recovering from injury.


The signs are that he will be fully fit for November selection, but it seems unlikely that he will be picked in either of the positions (wing or centre) which he might have requested or reasonably expected.


Were Jones to be selected at full-back to face the Springboks, Earls could still edge Simon Zebo and Andrew Trimble for a spot on the left flank but, as of now, he is the only one with the pedigree or experience (however limited) to play full-back in the 31-man squad.


Tommy Bowe was an outstanding No 15 in his youth at The Royal School Armagh and in his college time at Queen's University, Belfast, but to ask him to switch positions now is a non-starter.


Whether it is Jones or Earls (with Denis Hurley the only other credible alternative) in situ to face the South Africans, Ireland will have an undercooked full-back extremely short on game time in the position.


Kidney could add a prop or indeed another half-back (how about Paul Marshall and any one from Ian Madigan, Ian Keatley or Paddy Jackson?) but full-back is the area in need of most obvious attention.


The loss of Kearney is huge, and let no one pretend otherwise.


One can only hope that, in terms of injuries, the South Africa game will not impact too much on Kidney's selections to face Fiji and Argentina.


This is a squad that has been picked to finish the month still at No 8 in the IRB rankings, ahead of Scotland and the Pumas, thereby ensuring a second-pot seeding at the 2015 World Cup draw in early December.


Like almost everybody else, I too would like to see youth given its fling, but with the upcoming World Cup draw, for this autumn international series at least, needs must.


To that end Kidney has picked the most pragmatic selection, with very much in-form players like Chris Henry, John Muldoon and Mike McCarthy rightly on board.


Beyond that, the inclusion of Anthony Foley (as defence coach for the month) and Greg Feek as (double jobbing) scrummaging technician is to be welcomed -- I will return to that anon.


For now what we have is a seasoned squad picked to do a job.


However ugly it must be for that job to be done, few can argue the it's the present, rather than the future, which matters most in the next three internationals.


- Tony Ward


Irish Independent

[redherring]

Perhaps but Kidney has probably has more power to make calls against CC's than the provincial coaches. Kidney is a deep conservative with a questionable judgement on players form. He has his way of doing things and those supporting him to the hilt, will point with some justification to his record as a coach over the years which is still very good overall. It's really the last couple of seasons where we have seen the team really fade as a force (well below where we should be) with the odd big performance to fool everybody into believeing we've turned the corner.

Does it not make a joke of the provincial and academy/development system if Ireland are still in a state where we have a test squad with one TH, no openside, an IC who is passed his best at test level (and possibly no other up to the standard) and no recognised FB. When Ireland won the GS in 09' it should have been a two year focus on the WC to have all the young players showing promise of being test level around at the time to be given as much test match rugby possible.

[The Blackness]

That's what I think. Munsterfans better than anyone else know what to expect from Kidney, he'll keep the same core team and change a few faces during a season. That's it. There will never be wholesale changes unless injury dictates otherwise.

So the faux outrage in the Independent - that we often see echoed on here - and from the Leinster cheerleaders who dissed him from the start is tiresome.

This is what Kidney does. Frequently over his career, it has been very successful.

Ahhhh, I get it now... this is what he's always done so Ireland should stick with it even though it hasn't been working.

And here was me thinking it was a conservative coach who's fear of change is permeating through to his players resulting in poor results and a lack of invention, thanks for clearing that up.

[The Blackness]

T78,
OK if you say he's just there to make up the numbers, but Plug could make an equal claim. Holland brings something else and he might even develop from it. My fear is that Deccie still sees him as a starter....

As for THP - who is there beyond Ross? One injury and we can't even hold up a scrum......

Look at other posters too - we're one injury away (in a few key positions....) from disaster.

Methinks you're making too much of the alleged gap between HEC and test rugby...... Most of the HEC players are test players; Toulon have 2 teams of test players available; they may not win the HEC this year.

I'm disappointed with some of the makeup of it........

Not giving anyone else a chance is not the same as having no replacement... until recently there was much hand wringing about what would happen when Hayes got injured/left, there was no replacement, no one else... that is until Ross emerged from the spaceship that deposited him on this planet (clearly he hadn't been available before 2011) and became the saviour of Irish rugby.

The cycle continues...

[The Blackness]

No, we're not. That's for Fiji and, I would say, next 6N (if the IRFU would ever damn well allow us). Right now, we are trying to stay in the top 8 for the RWC seedings that shut off after this series. That's the focus, because otherwise we get a much harder pool.

Yeah, the IRFU is what's stopping Kidders from being innovative....

[LastKnight]

Afoa is the starting THP for Ulster, and he's bloody good too. Fitz may be a decent prospect if/when fit, but will he ever get enough gametime to get up to speed re. match form and fitness to compete at the higher level of test rugby? I know we have the same issue with both prop positions in Munster, but at least Kilcoyne is now starting to look like he may make it. Archer still hasn't made it consistently against the best, but what is the answer? who knows......

As for FB, if you mention that Jared is now Irish qualified - I assume that's what you mean..... - you'll start another row as big
as the RS one...!

No. Deccies big problem has always been remaining healthy for a long enough period. Anscombe is showing all the signs of developing players by using them, if necessary, ahead of the Imports. For example, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Paul Marshall at 9 with Pienaar at 10; Deccie Fitz starting ahead of Afoa and Tommy Bowe moving to 15 to accommodate Gilroy.

I wasnt wanting to start a row about "qualification". Just that I think you'll see a Deccie request regarding who will play 15 for us on Friday given the injury situation on the International team.

[thoughtless]

Brad Thorn, Isa Nacewa, Rocky Elsom, Dougie, Rua Tipoki, Trevor Halstead. Any Irish players in that list of crucial players for those HEC wins?

We will bounce around in the 3rd to 7th bracket, with everyone else there. Average to good, maybe the bottom end of that. 5th, say, or 6th, with a decent chance of bearing those in the 2nd to 4th slots at home. Which is roughly where we are, and where our players are at the moment. If you want to move up, you have to be honest about where you are.

There's something to what you're saying, principally the lack of depth issue, but there are two glaring flaws in your argument too.

The first is the fact that you're understating the fact that other club sides have had just as much (if not more, given the IRFU's heavy hand on imported players) of an opportunity to build teams around foreign players, and have availed of that opportunity, and Leinster and Munster still have five Heineken Cups from the last seven seasons. So, in that sense, unless you're saying our imports are all better and more important to our teams than others clubs' imports (an argument that I don't think holds water; look at Kelleher at Toulouse, or Evans at Quins, or a whole host of other signings), then on balance, we should still see greater success at international level than we are currently based on our consistently out-performing club competitors from our immediate rivals.

The second is that even if we accepted that those players were just utterly irreplaceable in those club sides and provided Leinster and Munster with an x-factor that no other nation's clubs had in Europe (which doesn't make sense, for reasons outlined above, but who doesn't love an 'even if...' argument), we still had players from other provinces to fill in those gaps. So, during Munster's period of dominance we had D'Arcy and O'Driscoll at international level, who, in their pomp, certainly matched up to Halstead and Tipoki. During Leinster's period of dominance, which may be ending now, you could very reasonably say that Ferris has been comparable to Elsom, and Earls has been comparable to Nacewa. Meanwhile, Howlett has straddled the end of Munster's period of dominance and now our rebuilding phase, but again, the emergence of Tommy Bowe as a top-class player at Ospreys provides us with a comparable talent.

We have underperformed woefully since 2009, while winning all round us at club level and adding in players of the talent of O'Brien, Healy, Sexton, and others in the Ireland set-up. Hopefully we'll see a turnaround in these matches, but the squad looks stale and the players look jaded, so I can't say I'm optimistic.

P.S. we're not even in the 3rd to 7th bracket anymore. We're 8th.

[Munsterboy]

While we may justify Kidney's selections in all sorts of ways, I find it difficult to find any rationale for the selection of thre LHPs and 1 THP in a series where we have 23 man squads.

Whatever way you cut it, Tom Court is not a better option at TH than Loughney or Hagan. Even if they are not starting for their provinces, they are still better THs and have the potential to be solid international with the right development.

I also find it hard to justify not including a single recognised FB. There may not be many options but Hurley is playing extremely well and I wouldn't worry for a second if he was selected. I would even be ok with Madigan being selected given he's been playing in the position and playing well over the last few weeks (wouldn't hurt to have him in the squad as potential cover at 10 too). Instead we'll have Deccie's favourite ploy of selecting the usual suspects and sticking Earls into whatever position needs filling at the end.

[hellovating]

tommy bowe at full back and deccie fitz starting for ulster this weekend. these selections have more than a whiff of deccie about them. same with peter o'mahony at 7 for munster.

[hellovating]

While we may justify Kidney's selections in all sorts of ways, I find it difficult to find any rationale for the selection of thre LHPs and 1 THP in a series where we have 23 man squads.

Whatever way you cut it, Tom Court is not a better option at TH than Loughney or Hagan. Even if they are not starting for their provinces, they are still better THs and have the potential to be solid international with the right development.

I also find it hard to justify not including a single recognised FB. There may not be many options but Hurley is playing extremely well and I wouldn't worry for a second if he was selected. I would even be ok with Madigan being selected given he's been playing in the position and playing well over the last few weeks (wouldn't hurt to have him in the squad as potential cover at 10 too). Instead we'll have Deccie's favourite ploy of selecting the usual suspects and sticking Earls into whatever position needs filling at the end.

a prop and outside back will be added to the squad. i thought everyone knew this.

[Thomond78]

Does it not make a joke of the provincial and academy/development system if Ireland are still in a state where we have a test squad with one TH, no openside, an IC who is passed his best at test level (and possibly no other up to the standard) and no recognised FB. When Ireland won the GS in 09' it should have been a two year focus on the WC to have all the young players showing promise of being test level around at the time to be given as much test match rugby possible.

This actually happened. That Autumn, Sexton was starting, Healy was brought in, SOB rapidly introduced... But many others didn't work out. It happens.

As regards TH, most countries have a problem there. Even NZ has a massive drop-off from Franks. It's why good THs earn so much money: they're precious.

[Thomond78]

While we may justify Kidney's selections in all sorts of ways, I find it difficult to find any rationale for the selection of thre LHPs and 1 THP in a series where we have 23 man squads.

Whatever way you cut it, Tom Court is not a better option at TH than Loughney or Hagan. Even if they are not starting for their provinces, they are still better THs and have the potential to be solid international with the right development.

I also find it hard to justify not including a single recognised FB. There may not be many options but Hurley is playing extremely well and I wouldn't worry for a second if he was selected. I would even be ok with Madigan being selected given he's been playing in the position and playing well over the last few weeks (wouldn't hurt to have him in the squad as potential cover at 10 too). Instead we'll have Deccie's favourite ploy of selecting the usual suspects and sticking Earls into whatever position needs filling at the end.

Half this place cries out for just that on a regular basis.

Also, before we go mental, can we just remember that there will be at least one prop added to that squad, and most likely a full back too, after this weekend?

[Thomond78]

There's something to what you're saying, principally the lack of depth issue, but there are two glaring flaws in your argument too.

The first is the fact that you're understating the fact that other club sides have had just as much (if not more, given the IRFU's heavy hand on imported players) of an opportunity to build teams around foreign players, and have availed of that opportunity, and Leinster and Munster still have five Heineken Cups from the last seven seasons. So, in that sense, unless you're saying our imports are all better and more important to our teams than others clubs' imports (an argument that I don't think holds water; look at Kelleher at Toulouse, or Evans at Quins, or a whole host of other signings), then on balance, we should still see greater success at international level than we are currently based on our consistently out-performing club competitors from our immediate rivals.

The second is that even if we accepted that those players were just utterly irreplaceable in those club sides and provided Leinster and Munster with an x-factor that no other nation's clubs had in Europe (which doesn't make sense, for reasons outlined above, but who doesn't love an 'even if...' argument), we still had players from other provinces to fill in those gaps. So, during Munster's period of dominance we had D'Arcy and O'Driscoll at international level, who, in their pomp, certainly matched up to Halstead and Tipoki. During Leinster's period of dominance, which may be ending now, you could very reasonably say that Ferris has been comparable to Elsom, and Earls has been comparable to Nacewa. Meanwhile, Howlett has straddled the end of Munster's period of dominance and now our rebuilding phase, but again, the emergence of Tommy Bowe as a top-class player at Ospreys provides us with a comparable talent.

We have underperformed woefully since 2009, while winning all round us at club level and adding in players of the talent of O'Brien, Healy, Sexton, and others in the Ireland set-up. Hopefully we'll see a turnaround in these matches, but the squad looks stale and the players look jaded, so I can't say I'm optimistic.

P.S. we're not even in the 3rd to 7th bracket anymore. We're 8th.

Wrong. We're 7th.

http://www.irb.com/rankings/index.html

Beat SA, and we'd be up to about fourth, I think.

[taz]

Half this place cries out for just that on a regular basis.

Also, before we go mental, can we just remember that there will be at least one prop added to that squad, and most likely a full back too, after this weekend?

Bowe being used by Ulster at FB ,might not be a FB added(I am guessing you think Hurley?).

[Thomond78]

Not giving anyone else a chance is not the same as having no replacement... until recently there was much hand wringing about what would happen when Hayes got injured/left, there was no replacement, no one else... that is until Ross emerged from the spaceship that deposited him on this planet (clearly he hadn't been available before 2011) and became the saviour of Irish rugby.

The cycle continues...

That would be the Ross who was selected by Kidney in the 2008 and 2010 squads - as I posted above - made his full debut in 2009 under You-Know-Who and was playing with the A side from 2006-2010?

Facts are so very inconvenient, aren't they?

[Windeos]

There's something to what you're saying, principally the lack of depth issue, but there are two glaring flaws in your argument too.

The first is the fact that you're understating the fact that other club sides have had just as much (if not more, given the IRFU's heavy hand on imported players) of an opportunity to build teams around foreign players, and have availed of that opportunity, and Leinster and Munster still have five Heineken Cups from the last seven seasons. So, in that sense, unless you're saying our imports are all better and more important to our teams than others clubs' imports (an argument that I don't think holds water; look at Kelleher at Toulouse, or Evans at Quins, or a whole host of other signings), then on balance, we should still see greater success at international level than we are currently based on our consistently out-performing club competitors from our immediate rivals.

The second is that even if we accepted that those players were just utterly irreplaceable in those club sides and provided Leinster and Munster with an x-factor that no other nation's clubs had in Europe (which doesn't make sense, for reasons outlined above, but who doesn't love an 'even if...' argument), we still had players from other provinces to fill in those gaps. So, during Munster's period of dominance we had D'Arcy and O'Driscoll at international level, who, in their pomp, certainly matched up to Halstead and Tipoki. During Leinster's period of dominance, which may be ending now, you could very reasonably say that Ferris has been comparable to Elsom, and Earls has been comparable to Nacewa. Meanwhile, Howlett has straddled the end of Munster's period of dominance and now our rebuilding phase, but again, the emergence of Tommy Bowe as a top-class player at Ospreys provides us with a comparable talent.

We have underperformed woefully since 2009, while winning all round us at club level and adding in players of the talent of O'Brien, Healy, Sexton, and others in the Ireland set-up. Hopefully we'll see a turnaround in these matches, but the squad looks stale and the players look jaded, so I can't say I'm optimistic.

P.S. we're not even in the 3rd to 7th bracket anymore. We're 8th.

The fact is with the quality of teams Leinster, Munster & Ulster are throwing out in the Rabbo and HC, we should be a far more competitive team.

Munster and Ulster have finally seen the light and are following Leinster's lead in regards an attacking offloading game which is benefitting the provinces with some great wins.

Why can't Ireland do the same?

In my opinion the problem is Kidney is still stuck in his forwards based game that won him so many trophies with Munster. But times have moved on and rugby has changes through the All blacks and Leinster dominance.

We should be building a top class international team because the players are there with real depth in nearly all the positions.

We have good options at 10 now with loads of exciting backs itching to play from Zebo, Gilroy, Conway, O'Halloran, Earls, Cave, L Marshal, Jackson, Madigan, Keatley, Griffen, Jones, Allen, & Farrell. All apart from the last two have played in big HC games so why not get them involved more?

Why are we always concerned with rankings for the RWC & therefore always go for the experienced tried and tested route.

I'm of the opinion of going stuff the rankings and build a squad by blooding youth regularly and watch the depth start to appear where we have competition for places and therefore a more competitive team.

By doing this we wouldn't be worrying about the rankings after every cycle because we would be building a deep squad with less reliance on the old timers.

Most nations outside New Zealand would love to have the players we have to choose from but most of them don't get a chance.

We should be managing out talented players so much better than we currently are.

The IRFU continue to look short term instead of sacrificing a little for long term gain. I bet if the likes of Henderson or L Marshall get a good run out and all of a sudden we might unearth the next top class 6 or a great passing inside centre.

We won't know unless we give these guys a chance.

[redherring]

This actually happened. That Autumn, Sexton was starting, Healy was brought in, SOB rapidly introduced... But many others didn't work out. It happens.

As regards TH, most countries have a problem there. Even NZ has a massive drop-off from Franks. It's why good THs earn so much money: they're precious.

Point taken. I still feel the cupboard is bare in too many positions when it possibly doesn't need to be. Whether this is as a result of poor planning from the Irish management or that injuries and the likes have caused this situation I don't know.

[Thomond78]

The fact is with the quality of teams Leinster, Munster & Ulster are throwing out in the Rabbo and HC, we should be a far more competitive team.

Munster and Ulster have finally seen the light and are following Leinster's lead in regards an attacking offloading game which is benefitting the provinces with some great wins.

Why can't Ireland do the same?

In my opinion the problem is Kidney is still stuck in his forwards based game that won him so many trophies with Munster. But times have moved on and rugby has changes through the All blacks and Leinster dominance.

We should be building a top class international team because the players are there with real depth in nearly all the positions.

We have good options at 10 now with loads of exciting backs itching to play from Zebo, Gilroy, Conway, O'Halloran, Earls, Cave, L Marshal, Jackson, Madigan, Keatley, Griffen, Jones, Allen, & Farrell. All apart from the last two have played in big HC games so why not get them involved more?

Why are we always concerned with rankings for the RWC & therefore always go for the experienced tried and tested route.

I'm of the opinion of going stuff the rankings and build a squad by blooding youth regularly and watch the depth start to appear where we have competition for places and therefore a more competitive team.

By doing this we wouldn't be worrying about the rankings after every cycle because we would be building a deep squad with less reliance on the old timers.

Most nations outside New Zealand would love to have the players we have to choose from but most of them don't get a chance.

We should be managing out talented players so much better than we currently are.

The IRFU continue to look short term instead of sacrificing a little for long term gain. I bet if the likes of Henderson or L Marshall get a good run out and all of a sudden we might unearth the next top class 6 or a great passing inside centre.

We won't know unless we give these guys a chance.

Sorry, but: that's deluding ourselves. Ioane or Conway? Bryan Habana or Gilroy? Adam Ashley Cooper or Madigan? Imanol Harinordoquy or Heaslip? Morgan Parra or Reddan? How long do you think they'd take over those choices?

We have some very good players, but we don't have the situation we had five years ago where we had very good players in every position, and two very good players in a lot of positions.

[Thomond78]

Point taken. I still feel the cupboard is bare in too many positions when it possibly doesn't need to be. Whether this is as a result of poor planning from the Irish management or that injuries and the likes have caused this situation I don't know.

At international level, you have to work with what you get. So, we have, at the moment, a clatter of 6.5s, but not many pure 7s or 8s; lots of looseheads, but not many THs, because those who should have been in those slots at TH either got broken, didn't train on, or never made the step up. That's just what's come up through the system, and just what happens when you've limited numbers coming into a system.

That's not to deny the necessity for decent development, or that we could do it a lot better in this country. But what we have now is in many ways a product of decisions made and coaching given ten or fifteen years ago when players were first allocated to slots and were learning the basics.

[NotreDameRFC]

This actually happened. That Autumn, Sexton was starting, Healy was brought in, SOB rapidly introduced... But many others didn't work out. It happens.

As regards TH, most countries have a problem there. Even NZ has a massive drop-off from Franks. It's why good THs earn so much money: they're precious.

and the franks are from Melbourne