Election for Italian Rugby Federation (FIR) Presidency on 15th September. One of the candidates says he wants Italy out of Celtic League. Another says he wants a 3rd Italian team (Rome-based?) in Celtic League.
Election for Italian Rugby Federation (FIR) Presidency on 15th September. One of the candidates says he wants Italy out of Celtic League. Another says he wants a 3rd Italian team (Rome-based?) in Celtic League.
I'd rather have someone there fighting for the inclusion of a third team than someone trying to pull the Italian teams out altogether, but tbh I think that two is the right figure at present. Zebre has only just been established and the playing schedules are pretty congested already without adding all the extra games the inclusion of a thirteenth side would entail. Or is the three-team candidate arguing that some other side already in the league should make way for the extra Italian team?
Never mind perception because it isn’t real. It’s only what people think. Go out and make them think something else.
- Alan Quinlan on believing in yourself
Dont think Italian Rugby is ready for a third professional franchise considering Aironi's replacment is still in nappies
Im here to spread the word..common sense is not just for animals
They need to get something serious started down south... A roman team .....
He was as lame as a duck. Not the metaphorical lame duck either, but a real duck that was actually lame. Maybe from stepping on a land mine or something.
Why does one of the candidates want out of the Celtic league?
4 Feb 2011 - Gilmore on the General Election
"Frankfurts way or Labours way."
28 Feb 2012 - Gilmore on a yes vote for the fiscal treaty
"A vote for economic stability and a vote for economic recovery."
This really begs the question What would the Romans do for us?
I am one of the 5 clowns woo hoo
Considering Zebre only pulled in around 2,000 punters for their first home match.I find it hard to see how they will stay afloat with all the expense their away matches will cost.
Otaga Daily Times 2/5/2012
Taz-Where did you get that information as I have seen nowhere that he(Penney) was ruled out?
Editor - The writer stands by the Penney information.
Otaga Daily Times 3/5/2012
Editor-- This article originally said Rob Penney had missed out on the Munster coaching job. That information was incorrect.
With all the uncertainty over HEC future etc, talk of Italian teams pulling out of Pro12 is an other unwelcome distraction
I haven't taken my Christmas lights down. They look so nice on the pumpkin
Well, it would solve a problem!Originally Posted by Waterfordlad
I think it's just some candidate running on a "little Italianer" platform, offering to go back to the way it was before the two professional sides hoovered up all the other clubs' best players. Bit like somebody here running on a platform to ditch the provinces to revive the UBL. A nonsense position.
Can you give us any info. on the wealth of the FIR, please?
I assume that the Treviso/Benetton franchise can pay its way but given that the Herons went broke and the Zebras are still in the throes of establishing themselves, I assume that the FIR has or will have to throw some funding in their direction.
The Celtic League must be a significantly more expensive proposition for the Italian Clubs than for their Celtic cousins due to the travelling expenses. Is this funded/part-funded by the FIR? Because if so, I assume that the key issue for debate would be whether bankrolling élite Italian franchises to travel to the western fringes of Europe is the optimal use of some of the FIR's budget.
A season in the Celtic League for Italian teams costs between € 7m and € 8m and only a small part for Le Zebre Rugby is covered by private sponsors. The Italian Rugby Federation has to guarantee the rest for Le Zebre.This season - according to reports I've read - it will cost them one-fifth of their entire annual budget (i.e it will cost them at least € 6m).
There are different opinions as to how good (or otherwise) the Celtic League is for the development of Italian rugby. Since Celtic League entry the level of the national Italian championship (previously the Super 10, now named the Campionato Di Eccellenza) has declined and our Campionato Di Eccellenza teams now seem incapable of winning Challenge Cup matches (whereas in the 2008/09 season - pre-Celtic League - 3 Italian teams came within a whisker of getting to the Challenge Cup quarter-finals).
Basically C di E teams are now (since Italian Celtic League entry) part-time and crowds have dwindled at their matches. A typical example would seem to be Rugby Parma who got an average league crowd of 1,550 in the 2008/09 season. They ran out of money after the announcement of Celtic League entry (though some maintain it would have happened anyway because of the recession) and joined with another local club (Noceto) to keep a (new) team - Crociati - in the top flight. Result: average crowds of 340 in their first season!
The point that some opposed to Italian Celtic League participation make is that Italy is a country of 116,000sq. miles with a population of 61m, and now has only two fully professional rugby teams in the north, rather than a broad-based, full-time league with clubs located all around the country, and around a dozen teams who could employ players on full-time contracts. So where do the young/youth players develop if players are mainly part timers with other jobs (or full time students)?
In terms of the level of rugby in the country it's often said that "Italian rugby is on the up" but I'd suggest that the facts don't bear this out. Sure, the national team beat France recently but they still haven't got to the QF of a RWC. At one point in 2007 they were 8th in the IRB World Ranking. They are now 11th.
Aironi did no better really in their two seasons in the HC than other Italian teams had done in the competition. They did have one win - a marvellous, historic victory over Biarritz - but this should perhaps be weighed against a 0-82 thrashing by Clermont. Treviso are a really good team now, with a great management structure and might even achieve a top-5 finish this season and although I'd say they have definitely improved since Celtic League entry (and are likely to continue to do so) they were already good. They'd already won 16 HC games before Celtic League entry and in the 2004-2005 season they beat Bath once and Bourgoin twice.
Last edited by Parma Jack; 15th-September-2012 at 07:04.
Thanks Jack, that is an excellent update on Italy, it does sound like the celtic league has been a mixed blessing for the Italians. I'm not sure that dropping out of the CL would return the C di E to what it was before.
Once you have brought in the Celtic League it means that the Italian championship will be second division even if you remove the celtic league (if that makes sense)
Would like to see a third Italian side myself - would like to see more teams from each of the celtic nations, but would be great if we could get the league to 14 teams.
...in what way will you feel more Irish if you force me to give up my feeling of being British? - David Ervine
Thanks for the overview on Italian Rugby jack, Not a huge fan of the Pro12, as it stands it is an uncompetitive test tube and, another testament to how central contracting is the grim reaper for amateur club rugby. That being said great game last night and that was an advert for what it could be, also an advert for Irish rugby rivalry and how good it is.
I would love to see amateur rugby in Ireland step to a Professional level for the top 24 teams. Remove the provinces bar the annual Interpro tournament. Central contracting could keep the international players paid and pampered and the fringe players would make a decent living on wages of 20k to 30k. As it stands the country has around 180 to 200 professional players, if you were to put together 24 professional sides the country could potentially have 720 full time professional rugby players feeding into an elite international squad of 45. A wage bill of 20 Mill for an average wage of 30k.
Before anyone starts freaking out about cost etc, think about this, the vast majority of Senior AIL players are already paid something, sure no proof but we all know.
Remove the franchise from each province and revert that money into Club rugby and you have the balance for wages.
We would produce more coaches, more referees, more players and give a large group of athletes the opportunity to play professional sport in Ireland in their local communities.
Create employment also, strength and conditioning coaches, dieticians etc for each club
Would Irish clubs compete in a European league?, don’t care, maybe, it might not be there in 5 years time anyway.
It wasn’t that long ago Limerick City was able to put 4000 to 5000 people in 3 separate venues on a Saturday afternoon. With the upsurge in Rugby through the franchises surely that would be achievable again.
Imagine what could be achieved in Dublin with the Leinster interest and the clubs in the capital currently doing so well in the AIL.
Italy could probably do something similar in time and with 61 million people it is potentially a huge market and a rugby super power. Closing ranks and focusing on 1 or 2 provincial teams will kill off interest everywhere else.
Im here to spread the word..common sense is not just for animals
24? 24? would you not be happy with ten teams? Nice outline and cost analysis, though I disagree with the fundamental notion of disbanding the provinces and the celtic league.
...in what way will you feel more Irish if you force me to give up my feeling of being British? - David Ervine
No, 10 is too small, 2 divisions, 12 and 12. Just thinking more on it the Celtic Cup could make a comeback, kind of like the Super15, After the Six Nations the provinces could reassemble for the Interpro series and then go into a round robin versus the Scots and Welsh regions. Once that is done the Interpro could finish out the year before the summer.
12 teams playing home and away would have a 22 match season finished out just for the six nations if it started the last week of august, once the six nations is over the Provincial rugby would finish out the year with 3 weeks for the interpro and 4 to 5 weeks for the round robin. Gives 4-5 weeks off for June tests and a 7 week pre season.
Main downfall is obviously no money from Sky for TV rights but if the Heineken Cup does go bust there is no money anyway.
Im here to spread the word..common sense is not just for animals
You can see the merits alright of going back to an Italian pro league (big potential market). Managed & marketted right, it could thrive and really drive Italian rugby to next level. The Magners/Rabbo seemed like a quick win for them but I guess they've only just really started so should stick with it another 1 or 2 seasons.
On another point, Frigtening thing is our (IRL's) record at RWC is just slightly better than Italy's. Could make one ask just how good European/celtic league rugby has been for our INTL team!
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again (like picking Gordon D'Arcy) and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein
Alfredo Gavazzi, the Candidate who wants 3 Italian teams in the Celtic League, won the election for Italian Federation Presidency.
Apparently he spoke to John Feehan, Chief Executive of the 6 Nations and PRO12 during the last Italy v England game and told him that from 2014 the Italian Federation would no longer be willing to pay € 2m to the Celtic League and want to be equal partners. In that Italy is a big market with 60m inhabitants and the sum total of the Celtic Nations' populations is 12m. And because if Italy manages to maintain crowds of 70,000 at the Olimpico they will have the 3rd highest attendances in the 6 Nations (NB: Think this is wrong – surely England, France and Wales would get higher attendances, making Italy 4th).
I, personally,think that Italian rugby would have developed better without the Celtic League –with 10 teams spread more or less equally throughout the territory and the right level of marketing. When the 2ndor 3rd best team in the country, Calvisano (still waiting to see how Zebre do before evaluating which!) - the Italian Campionato Di Eccellenza Champions –are likely to get an average of around 1,500 or less at games this season, it doesn’t bode well for the future of the game here.
However…it’s probably too late to go back – I don’t know. Some of the fan base for the old Super 10 teams (some of which have disappeared through fusions with other teams, or disappeared at least from top flight rugby) of 3 seasons ago has probably been lost forever and I take Scotscor’s point that “Once you have brought in the Celtic League it means that the Italian championship will be second division even if you remove the Celtic League”. IMHO it was the marketing that was missing pre-Celtic League anyway. For example, the country momentarily became rugby crazy when Italy won two matches (v Scotland and Wales) in the 6 Nations a few years ago and the Flaminio started getting sellout crowds from that moment, but no-one seemed to be doing what I would call serious marketing to try to convert this enthusiasm into bums on seats in national club games (where a great many of the Italy team played).
BTW, although I was against Italian Celtic League participation before/when it happened, I did sign up for an Aironi ST for their two years of existence out of loyalty (our team, Rugby Parma having a 10% stake in this franchise) and always very much appreciated seeing the Celtic teams play at Viadana.
Last edited by Parma Jack; 16th-September-2012 at 12:10.
Absolutely right.
Furthermore, given that there are normally spare tickets and empty seats at 6N games in Flaminio, I'm sceptical regarding the FIR's prospects of selling out the Olimpico on a regular basis.
Success in the HEC is the way to go. Italy's clubs are where Munster and Leinster were in 1998/1999 in that they were just beginning to understand what was required to compete.
A HEC QF or SF for Treviso is realistic and that would really bring a buzz to Italian Rugby, and success for Treviso would surely left the second franchise. Nothing succeeds like success and Munster is testament to that.
For the over the hill and the past-it, nothing is impossible.
True. I've always admired Munster rugby for they way that it improved itself on foot of Ulster's unforgettable European rugby triumph, back in 1999!
That would be a huge step back imo. I know your putting the focus very much on the National side and trying to achieve success on that stage but it should not be done at the expense of disbanding the Provinces. European club rugby is where the money is and is very much a growing beast. Munster and Leinster have created more fond memories and happy times for both fans and players alike over the last 10 years than the national side ever has. The member numbers in the provincial supporters clubs are growing year in year out. I know franchises can be a bit tacky and money hungry but it is the only way forward for a professional sport. Franchises are big business and they draw mass appeal which is what rugby needs even if the purists dont like it. Rugby is still only an infant in professional terms and for it to continue to grow and attract new followers you need the already established and successful provincial teams like Munster and Leinster to do for Rugby what the Manchester Uniteds and Real Madrids did for soccer. To take a step back and try and start afresh with 24 teams would be the death of the sport in this country.
There will be a European cup no matter what happens because every union knows damn well that it is imperative to the continued growth of the sport. This whole thing that is going on at the moment will be resolved, of that I am sure. The Provincial teams and club rugby is the, as ROG would say, bread and butter of European rugby and rugby's continued growth will revolve around them and not the National sides.
"We've got to be really careful we get our backyard right before we start looking over the fence."
Rob Penney - Rugby coach and Philosopher
It will be more credible for Italy to ask for a3rd Celtic League team if both of the current two are up and running well first. Zebre Rugby might have a bit of work to do on the fan-base front. Their first (and so far only) home match attracted a crowd of just 2,025 (in Parma – a city with a population of187,000). That’s only 45% of Aironi’s first ever home game two seasons ago (4,453 in Viadana – population 17,700 and only 16-odd miles from Parma) and only around two-thirds of Aironi’s total two-season Magners League/RaboDirect PRO12 average attendance of 2,990.
However, it’s early days yet and there could bea number of reasons for the initial poor turnout: a) Zebre Rugby has not been formed by clubs with a traditional/historical supporter base (Aironi was formed/ invested in by Viadana 54%, Rugby Parma 10%, Gran Parma, 10% etc., so even fans who didn’t like Celtic League entry went along initially out of loyalty to their original clubs); b) Some former Aironi supporters may refuse to go to Zebre matches because they aren’t happy with how the Aironi affair was handled or – simply – perhaps because they can’t bring themselves to support another PRO12 team; c) They are showing home matches live on television.
Benetton Treviso show that it can be done. They get crowds of around 5,000 and these are likely to grow, in my opinion. I was at the Treviso v Leinster match on Saturday – a 5,500 crowd in a 6,000 capacity stadium and a tremendous atmosphere. And they’re a really good team to boot – I wouldn’t be surprised to see them make the top 5 this season and Paddy Power are offering 9-1 odds on them making the playoffs.
I reckon a third team could thrive and prosper in Italy if the marketing and location were managed well. Better to have it down south I think, sinceat the moment the two CL teams are in the north.
Last edited by Parma Jack; 18th-September-2012 at 10:33.
Pie in the sky. 24 pro teams in Ireland is completely unfeasible and if you think lads would play full time for 20-30k you're living on a different planet to the rest of us.
Even our best, well paid, centrally-contracted players would leave for England and France where they could get more money and a much higher standard of rugby than playing AIL and the odd inter-pro (just as the likes of Woody and co. were doing before the IRFU sorted out the provinces).
The standard of the AIL would be marginally better than it is now, whereas the AP, T14 and S15 would be streets ahead. Those competition would attract Irish rugby fans the way the Premiership, Champions League etc. currently attracts Irish soccer fans (you know, the lads who wouldn't open the curtains to watch a League of Ireland game if was being played in their back garden).
Sadly, the days of thousands of people showing up to watch AIL games are dead and gone. The announcement of professionalism was their death knell. The IRFU were smart enough to see the writing on the wall and, thankfully, reacted quickly enough to ensure that we don't have to watch our best and brightest representing Wasps, Sarries and Touloun every weekend.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote