Average weekly wage Private sector €611.66, Average Public Sector weekly wage €918.90

[Tobyglen]

This deserves it's own thread.

Q2 2012 Average weekly wage Private sector €611.66, Average Public Sector weekly wage €918.99. Astounding difference. Public sector wages increased this year. It's time to give up.



http://trueeconomics.blogspot.ie/2012/08/2982012-some-facts-about-irish-average.html

[munstershane]

My wife who is a public worker and has been for over 10 years is no where near that. In fact I'd say she's not up to the average of the private sector wage above.

Not all public sector workers get mega bucks.

[Balla Boy]

Not a hugely meaningful comparison, unfortunately. There are no such things as "private sector" and "public sector" salaries.

The only meaningful comparison would be based on salary samples for defined roles. So, for instance, what does an accountant with X years experience earn in different sectors?

And then within public and private you'd need to break down central and local govt, health, education, defence, telecoms, pharma etc

You'd also want to see a distribution graph to indicate how that average is balanced out.

Ultimately, it's no surprise that a sector that employs doctors, teachers, judges etc has a higher average salary than one that takes in shelf stackers, cleaners and other traditionally poorly paid employees.

[Benny]

Usual stuff in the continual attempt to create division between the low and middle income earners, or proles if you like. The public sector is far smaller in terms of numbers employed than the private sector. The tens of thousands of minimum wage jobs in the likes of the retail sector, hotels, bars etc drag down the private sector average. Equally, despite some obscene salaries at the highest echelons of the public sector the private sector top level management wouldn't get out bed for the renumeration packages available in the public sector.

Basically the top level are paid monstrous salaries across the board which is fine in the private sector as we are not funding it while most people just get paid enough to keep them ticking over, whether private or public sector. The average worker in the country should be more concerned with what is happening at governmental and other powerful positions level both internal and EU-wide than looking across at their private or public sector equivalent who may or may not be earning a few pennies an hour more. Of course if we did that it could endanger said establishment so that won't be happening. I assume this will turn up on the Indo pretty soon.

[sewa]

The public sector is tiny Benny? The last i heard there were well over a hundred thousand in the health sector alone

[Benny]

Public sector has about 350k to the best of my knowledge while in the private sector you'd have, I think, over 2 million employed. I am assuming total workforce is live register 440k approx x 6.8 or so(If I am correct in how they come up with the unemployment rate)

[Tobyglen]

Usual stuff in the continual attempt to create division between the low and middle income earners, or proles if you like. The public sector is far smaller in terms of numbers employed than the private sector. The tens of thousands of minimum wage jobs in the likes of the retail sector, hotels, bars etc drag down the private sector average. Equally, despite some obscene salaries at the highest echelons of the public sector the private sector top level management wouldn't get out bed for the renumeration packages available in the public sector.

Basically the top level are paid monstrous salaries across the board which is fine in the private sector as we are not funding it while most people just get paid enough to keep them ticking over, whether private or public sector. The average worker in the country should be more concerned with what is happening at governmental and other powerful positions level both internal and EU-wide than looking across at their private or public sector equivalent who may or may not be earning a few pennies an hour more. Of course if we did that it could endanger said establishment so that won't be happening. I assume this will turn up on the Indo pretty soon.

Try & justify that difference is wrong. Teachers/Doctors are paid obscene money, management in public sector aswell need not to be discussed for fear of heart failure.

Your attempt at justifying is pretty awful, you think public sector people are better trained than private sector? What about the menial public sector jobs aswell? I won't name any descriptions but they should be pretty clear. I can think of plenty of public sector jobs that are of the same skill level as minimum wage jobs. The difference is stark & a 2.5% increase whilst people are emigrating in record levels is disgraceful.

The public sector is still far too bloated, do we really need record emigration to sort this crisis out?

[Tobyglen]

Not a hugely meaningful comparison, unfortunately. There are no such things as "private sector" and "public sector" salaries.

The only meaningful comparison would be based on salary samples for defined roles. So, for instance, what does an accountant with X years experience earn in different sectors?

And then within public and private you'd need to break down central and local govt, health, education, defence, telecoms, pharma etc

You'd also want to see a distribution graph to indicate how that average is balanced out.

Ultimately, it's no surprise that a sector that employs doctors, teachers, judges etc has a higher average salary than one that takes in shelf stackers, cleaners and other traditionally poorly paid employees.

Engineers, software engineers, programmers, financiers, actuarial, solicitors. Seriously Balla? That's a pathetic comparison. Teachers in Ireland are the highest paid in the EU, why? Go to the local county council/Passport office/Army, every sector has menial jobs.

The difference in pay is staggering. Just out of college & you earn €43p/h as a primary school teacher doing temp work. Is that right? Get permanent & you you have a job for life. Guards, Prison officers earn staggering wages.

[Benny]

Try & justify that difference is wrong. Teachers/Doctors are paid obscene money, management in public sector aswell need not to be discussed for fear of heart failure.

Your attempt at justifying is pretty awful, you think public sector people are better trained than private sector? What about the menial public sector jobs aswell? I won't name any descriptions but they should be pretty clear. The difference is stark & a 2.5% increase whilst people are emigrating in record levels is disgraceful.

The public sector is still far too bloated, do we really need record emigration to sort this crisis out?

I am not arguing that there isn't fat that can still be trimmed from the public sector and I am not arguing that there are some who are overpaid. I am saying that taking an average in the public sector and trying to compare it with an average in the private sector is just not a fair comparison for the reasons I have given. In any poll or any sample you are trying to guage the smaller the sample the less reliable the result.

I am well aware of the over-population of overpaid, while in reality redundant, management in the public sector and well aware of the reasons for that. I am also well aware that some low/mid level public servants doing actual good work, such as necessary enviromental work, have not been replaced after retirement in the last 6 years or more while the number of well connected folk who are about as useful as a chocolate chip pan has been maintained or increased....certainly increased over a 15 year period. I am aware of one council in the country where the senior management, with salaries of 150k+ was increased from 1 to 5 back in the early 2000's. This is the disgrace. Not the ordinary folk working in the public sector, many of whom do not earn near the average industrial wage.

This country is screwed but it is because of the ability of politicians to create jobs for the right people at the right price.

[Tobyglen]

I am not arguing that there isn't fat that can still be trimmed from the public sector and I am not arguing that there are some who are overpaid. I am saying that taking an average in the public sector and trying to compare it with an average in the private sector is just not a fair comparison for the reasons I have given. In any poll or any sample you are trying to guage the smaller the sample the less reliable the result.

I am well aware of the over-population of overpaid, while in reality redundant, management in the public sector and well aware of the reasons for that. I am also well aware that some low/mid level public servants doing actual good work, such as necessary enviromental work, have not been replaced after retirement in the last 6 years or more while the number of well connected folk who are about as useful as a chocolate chip pan has been maintained or increased....certainly increased over a 15 year period. I am aware of one council in the country where the senior management, with salaries of 150k+ was increased from 1 to 5 back in the early 2000's. This is the disgrace. Not the ordinary folk working in the public sector, many of whom do not earn near the average industrial wage.

This country is screwed but it is because of the ability of politicians to create jobs for the right people at the right price.

You're right, lots in the public sector do good jobs. Circa 35% of public sector wages earn less than average ind wages so stats can be slightly misleading but the numbers a decent proportion of people are earning is well out of proportion. 300 quid a week?

[The Last Stand]

His analysis is simplistic, particularly his conclusions on the quality of people in the private sector. The reality is that the salaries for basic jobs such as cleaners, waiters, hotel and bar staff have been squeezed yet private sector management positions particularly in IT and financial services have increased. The figures also do not include the pension levy.

I agree that there needs to be a debate on pay and conditions in the public sector, and that there are some sectors who have it a little easy and are probably overpaid but:

- does this country need industrial strife right now? The IMF has highlighted the benefits of Croke Park in its most recent analysis. Croke Park 2 will happen but will be much more focused on certain sectors,

- in terms of teaching, do we want our kids spending more days in school? A serious question which gets very little attention.

- do you want educated people teaching your kids? Young Irish teachers do very well financially abroad - aside from the middle east, China is now recruiting here. What is the ultimate cost to the economy of this? The same applies for nurses although there is no doubt that consultants are overpaid.

Agree completely on guards and prison officers - overtime bills are staggering.

[No. 16]

Tobyglen. You are generalising far too simplisticallike to the extent that it seems you are swallowing what you are being fed and it's **** . There are teachers and other civil servants that are paid crap money and less than full time. You are being very simple and angry in an uneducated and ill-informed way. Your soap box does not hold water. Your analysis is anaemic.

[sewa]

Public sector has about 350k to the best of my knowledge while in the private sector you'd have, I think, over 2 million employed. I am assuming total workforce is live register 440k approx x 6.8 or so(If I am correct in how they come up with the unemployment rate)

Last figure I saw was 1.8 million total employed, Given a significant proportion are on part time etc comparisons are admittedly difficult but 100k plus in one sector and that doesnt even count agency workers in that area!

[The Last Stand]

Last figure I saw was 1.8 million total employed, Given a significant proportion are on part time etc comparisons are admittedly difficult but 100k plus in one sector and that doesnt even count agency workers in that area!

The data for the health sector indicates that things are improving in terms of waiting times, bed nights per patient etc.

There are a number of problems -

- too many agency workers
- rostering arrangements
- consultant salaries
- pay and conditions of staff such as the porters - way out of line with comparable private sector jobs

[No. 16]

I take it Toby is one of those that believes public sector employees wouldn't be caught dead buying rice and spuds in Lidl just to try to keep the kids fed and still have bus fare to get to work and maybe an extravagant cup of coffee just to keep going. No. He probably imagines them in their Italian shoes going to restaurants. I wonder is this the type of class divide he is attempting to help cleave?

[Balla Boy]

Engineers, software engineers, programmers, financiers, actuarial, solicitors. Seriously Balla? That's a pathetic comparison. Teachers in Ireland are the highest paid in the EU, why? Go to the local county council/Passport office/Army, every sector has menial jobs.

The difference in pay is staggering. Just out of college & you earn €43p/h as a primary school teacher doing temp work. Is that right? Get permanent & you you have a job for life. Guards, Prison officers earn staggering wages.

Why pathetic? Yes, there are poorly paid jobs in the public sector. Lots of care related roles in particular are badly paid.

But you are, wilfully or not, missing the point. The predominant western labour trends of the last 30 years have been the de-skilling of industrial work, the shrinking of real wages, the off shoring of many skilled jobs and the growth of poorly paid service sector employment.

We're left with a significant number of McJobs that significantly lower any "average" private sector salary.

In contrast, significant chunks of the public sector remain relatively skilled, particularly in health and education.

Whether their salaries are at the right level in comparison to European peers isn't the point.

The point is that there are relatively few private sector jobs that require 5 years of tertiary education followed by years more training, as medicine does.

Many private sector people (myself included) are essentially paid well to talk **** for a living, and are just about infinitely replaceable.

It's the nature of the labour market we've developed. How many people, really, are working as engineers any more?

[fitzy73]

Its been a while since we've had a good public sector v private sector showdown!

For me, the only validity in looking at public sector wages is comparing those jobs to their European peers. Even then, factors like the local cost of living have to be taken into account.

And please, no comparisons with the UK. Currency movements - stg was nearly at par with the Euro last year, and worth 1.50 six years ago - make it a null argument.

[Valencia]

The Governments No.1 Weapon rolled out again, Divide & Conquer & watch them all fall.

[Viigand]

Can we have another round of benchmarking now please.

[Mack the Knife]

Can someone tell me where I can get a teaching job at €43 an hour? UK aside I would get the equivalent and more benefits in most EU countries for the Public Sector Job I do. In the "boom" I earned 25% less than my equivalents in the Private Sector with less benefits. I now earn less then I did in 2007.

[Viigand]

Yes, but how many of those in the private sector have either been made redundant or have ha to take significant pay cuts.

[Mack the Knife]

Yes, but how many of those in the private sector have either been made redundant or have ha to take significant pay cuts.

Many of those in the private sector that have been made redundant or taken pay cuts would not have worked in the public sector during the good times because the money wasn't good enough. I remember equivalents in the Private Sector laughing at our salaries with the usual sneer of " I wouldn't get out of bed for your wages".

[Old Dog]

Many of those in the private sector that have been made redundant or taken pay cuts would not have worked in the public sector during the good times because the money wasn't good enough. I remember equivalents in the Private Sector laughing at our salaries with the usual sneer of " I wouldn't get out of bed for your wages".

As an active participant in the Benchmarking process, (I drafted the Employer side's submsssion to the PSBB on behalf of the sector where I was working) I can confirm this. Job offers were being sent out to literally dozens of prospective new recruits and most of them didn't even bother replying, let alone turning up to start work. Ironically, the few who did, are laughing now.

[kermit]

And then within public and private you'd need to break down central and local govt, health, education, defence, telecoms, pharma etc

You want to compare the pay in the army to that in the IRA?

[Balla Boy]

You want to compare the pay in the army to that in the IRA?

We have been talking about how the unemployed should be made to volunteer. Not sure that's what anyone had in mind though.

[Old Dog]

You want to compare the pay in the army to that in the IRA?

I reckon that McGuinness, Ferris and Adams get a lot more loot as elected reps than they did as terrorists, even taking the various IRA fund raising activities into account!

But there are quite a few valid comparators: for example an Air Corps pilot V a civvie pilot - or a naval service Captain V a Scottish Fishery Protection vessel captain. Also the salary (including tech pay) of many of the army trades (cook, electrician, mechanic, etc.) can be compared with their private sector counterparts.

[Balla Boy]

I reckon that McGuinness, Ferris and Adams get a lot more loot as elected reps than they did as terrorists, even taking the various IRA fund raising activities into account!

But there are quite a few valid comparators: for example an Air Corps pilot V a civvie pilot - or a naval service Captain V a Scottish Fishery Protection vessel captain. Also the salary (including tech pay) of many of the army trades (cook, electrician, mechanic, etc.) can be compared with their private sector counterparts.

I still think the basic split is invalid though. There's no such thing as the public or private sector in this context. Banking pays higher salaries than other industries for things like IT, because IT is critical to their business. Tobacco and Defence pay more than other industries for just about everything to compensate people for selling their soul.

There's nothing really useful or instructive about a public/private comparison. Far more useful to take an occupation and plot variances against real industry groups - that would do far more to reveal any discrepancies.

[Viigand]

Many of those in the private sector that have been made redundant or taken pay cuts would not have worked in the public sector during the good times because the money wasn't good enough. I remember equivalents in the Private Sector laughing at our salaries with the usual sneer of " I wouldn't get out of bed for your wages".

Not any of those that I know. From what I am told it was impossible to get a permanent teaching position in the state sector unless you had contacts.

[Mack the Knife]

Not any of those that I know. From what I am told it was impossible to get a permanent teaching position in the state sector unless you had contacts.

Bull****. Who told you that, some bloke down the pub no doubt. Public appointments are by Public Competition, everyone is welcome to comply provided they have the necessary qualifications.
I know a number of foreign nationals who hold permanent teaching posts, what contacts did they have ?
May I refer you back to Old Dogs post ?

[Viigand]

Well, now I know you are talking complete crap. Not going to post names on a public forum but I have a close relative in the profession. You are talking through your arse. Don't get on your high horse about 'someone down the pub' without knowing your facts you blithering idiot.