And bitterness, don't forget bitternessOriginally Posted by Sketchy
And honesty, we'd lose without honesty
And Pride where would we be without pride (or passion)
And bitterness, don't forget bitterness
And honesty, we'd lose without honesty
And Pride where would we be without pride (or passion)
...in what way will you feel more Irish if you force me to give up my feeling of being British? - David Ervine
Didn't mean to single out your post Kevy - it's more of a building rumble that Earls is somehow being accommodated if he's played at 13.
I'm one of those that suspects he is a 13, though most of his best rugby has been in the back three. That said, with the players at our disposal, our best use of assets may be to play him at FB.
I remain to be convinced about him under a high ball though.
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
More a failure to explode, I think. Whatever happens this year, Keatley must be seeing last season as a misse opportunity on some level. A world cup season (plus knocks for ROG) should have been his opportunity to establish himself as an option at HEC level, and I don't think anyone could argue that he seized it.
Yes, we can say that he's developing but he's a 25 year old with 100 or so senior appearances and two test caps (won three years ago) who still isn't a Heineken Cup starter.
I'd say this is a massive season for him. If he gets to 27 without showing that he can be first choice 10 for a top 6 European side then it's probably not going to happen for him.
Not a villain by any means. I'd love to see him kick on this year. It's just that the bar here is high. Our fly half needs to be one of the top five or so in the NH, realistically. There are plenty of good pros that will never reach that level.
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
Has to be TOD at 7 for me. He would be disappointed with himself after the ulster match. POM is a guy full of heart and will leave nothing on the pitch. Unfortunately that's his problem, he literally is wrecked coming off. He won't last four or five matches in a row.While I'd like to see earls at 13, he's too much of a thoroughbred to play week in week out at 13, which is what he needs if he's going to make it his own. When he's fully fit, he offers a lot, but when he's carrying an injury it shows in his performance as his attack is based on quick bursts of speed.I'd still be worried about our props as I feel this is archers make or break season. Will be a learning experience for kilcoyne.
In seasons past most of our players proved themselves on the hard grounds of AIL, with tough games week in week out. That toughness is missing from the current batch and some of them are trying to run before they can walk.Before getting exposure at Rabo level , they should prove to themselves they can cut it at A level. This way if they get battered in Rabo games, we will at least know that they have shown potential, confidence and durability at the lower level.
Eh? I would be more surprised if he did! he's played more at centre over the years and seemd to be put into wing to suit King Deccies desire to have him there until BOD got injured.
When was the last time Earls played at Fullback? 2 years ago when warwick came off? And fair enough Jones is injured but what about Hurley? Our form player from last year at full back and a bit hard done by shoved onto the wing when Jones came back.
Zebo is playing out iof his skin on the wing (Where he wants to play BTW) and is showing almost game on game improvement so why would Earls be shoved in there, personally, I would think Earls will have to fight it out for the centre position with Downey, Laulala, Barnes, Dineen and even Hanrahan.
I have to admit though, at the start of last year, the back 3 of Howlett, Jones and Earls, looked World Class. Better than anything the other 3 provinces , possibly any team in Europe, could muster up. Shame with injury and inconsistency in front of them, the link between them and the improving pack was the weak point and we never say it to its full potential. With Downey and Laulala on board this year though, that link looks that bit stronger. Good times ahead.
As for this nailed down starter business, the idea of this makes me cringe. The form player playing best should be starter, No-one should be there on reputation. If this is a thread to predict who will be the best, most consistent performer in each position, fine but outside this, it's a dangerous idea. (Not that it makes any difference to the actual game, just my opinion)
The problem with this world is there are too many snakes... and not enough Ladders!
This reminds me of a young Stephen Ferris. While he has had his fair share of injuries, lets be honest, if POM were to emulate his progress the whole way though, I for one wouldn't be complaining! It shows his heart, fearlessness and determination and with our (relatively) new Conditioning team sounding like they know what they're doing, he might get some better preparation in his development.
The problem with this world is there are too many snakes... and not enough Ladders!
This idea that Earls is unfamiliar with the position he grew up playing always fascinates me.
Vorsprung durch Pfennig.
I couldnīt be arsed starting a thread for this, but the big question is... Are we stronger this year than last year.......
thoughts...?
He was as lame as a duck. Not the metaphorical lame duck either, but a real duck that was actually lame. Maybe from stepping on a land mine or something.
Definitely. But...
Last year we started with an established team and coaching set up. With injuries and retirements everything got progressively worse. This year it is the opposite. I think we will get progressively better as the season pushes on. If our current team were to play last years team now, we would lose. But come the Easter Sunday I would see only one winner. Just hope it doesn't take so long in coming.
The squad is weaker than last year, due to all the retirements, but few players who were first team regulars last year have gone away, Mafi being the only one I can think of. The first team, injuries permitting, should be stronger. Murray, O'Mahony and Zebo will presumably improve as young players do and the pack is still decent, if not ferocious. The question-mark is at 10, where Rog is declining and his potential replacements are untried at HC level.
He played there against the Barbarians this summer, for the Lions and had arguably his best international performance there against England in the 2011 6N. It's not the untested, unfamiliar position for him that you claim.
He also played 13 for the Lions, and wing. We went through this in detail, with team sheets, and showed it's largely wishful thinking to facilitate shoehorning everyone in, regardless of preferred position.
Vorsprung durch Pfennig.
We're a lot weaker this year. Squad depth is unusually thin, our backrow is young and raw, ROG is a year older and we're still no closer to replacing him, we still struggle without our first choice props. Biggest blow is the experience drain, no Micko, Wally, Leamy, Hayes etc will hit his hard during the difficult moments of the season.
On the plus side we've a better coach and midfield has gone from being our weakest point to one of our strongest. I think we're better set up for the big HEC games this year than last but much worse for consistency and rotation through the Rabo.
Weaker in theory, given the names we've lost. Stronger in practice, because we didn't have those names anyway last season and those who stepped up like POM and Z-Bow have a year's experience under their belt.
Vorsprung durch Pfennig.
Exactly. We never really had Flannery, Leamy or Wallace last year. To say we did would be very misleading. Micko is a huge loss to the Rabo team and so is Hayes. But they were not really a big part of our HEC squad. We still have Ronan and Coughlan. POM will be bigger, stronger and faster. DOC2 looks like he could come very good. And then there is CJ. Our centres were all over the shop with the hope that Chambers would come good. Now we have serious options with Downey, Laulala, Earls, Dineen, and Barnes. 10 is definitely a spot that could go either way. But the real measure of a HEC team is the bench, and I think we will have genuine options to spring off the bench. When you compare to Ulster and the Ospreys last year where we fell very short.
Yep. I said similar way back early in the summer. The retirees, with the exception of Micko- were pretty much not available for the majority of last season anyway.
Further to what T78 and Sketchy have said, I feel our squad depth is actually much better. Guys like TOD, DOC2, Barnes etc all have another year under their belt. Last year guys were hurried into Rabo and some HEC games due to shockingly thin squad but now those guys have another year under their belt with the experiences last year to learn from and are much closer to being genuine contenders and not guys that were just show-horned in 'cos we had no choice.
Our back-row may be young and raw, but it's young(i.e. not aging) and savage with serious wrecking potential. Of course we'll miss Wally, Quinlan and Leamy etc but we never had them last year anyway. I'll always remember those guys legacies but right now I'm more excited for the legacies lying ahead of POM, Beta, even Zebo and Hanrahan.
I'm expecting nothing this year but I was expecting nothing last year either. I never had any confidence in McGahan after the 09/10 season and last year I cringed and cried as I watched my sports team fall very far indeed as all the papered over cracks finally show the true damage that had been done.
New coach, new players, new season.
I just want to see progress. A HC quarter-final and beating Leinster once would be a success in my eyes.
Jaysus, I just got some goose-bumps. Never thought I'd be looking forward to a Rabo meeting with Edinburgh so much
Stronger on the park, I'd say, as we've basically traded Mafi and Micko for Dowling, Laululalalulu and Stander with youngsters coming through.
Argument that the "changing room" in the sense of the whole off the pitch piece is worse off though. You'd imagine that the likes of Wallace, Leamy etc were still big presences even if injured. The challenge this year for my money (along with all the other ones of course) is finding a new generation of leaders.
It will be fascinating to see who emerges as pack leader in POC's absence, or which of the new arrivals asserts their presence early. We also need to see the emergence of some of our young forwards in terms of physical intimidation. We're badly missing the "fear of God" element.
All in, it's the presence and personalities of the likes of Wallace, Quinlan, Fla and Leamy that teams miss even more than the lost skills.
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
pom! Pom! Pom! Pom!....
Maybe I'm alone on this, but I feel that the absence of those guys will actually spur the new talent on more.
Wally, Leamy, Quinlan, Fla, Micko etc were all synonymous with Munster, ever-present. Younger players knew those leaders were always there to take the reigns if need be. Now they're gone, younger fellas will have to find it in themselves to step up and claim their positions. When the old-heads were around you could predict the starting 15 with certainty(for obvious reasons, it was a golden generation).
Now positions will genuinely be up for grabs and everybody will have to step up their game and start to prove that the new golden generation has started to emerge.
Last edited by Kevy-Wevz; 30th-August-2012 at 12:30.
I'm hopeful for him, but he's a way short yet I think. He puts himself about well, but I think he's a proto-Elsom rather than a proto-Leamy/Ferris (while implying parity with none).
I'm still not sure who's going to do the fundamental business of beating the piss out of people.
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
CJ for "Piss-Beater", and POM for pack leader. Thought he captained quite well last year.
I'm not sure why people are convinced we have great depth when we've been getting creamed in the pre-season. And our "depth" involves players like Williams, Keatley, Archer, an ageing DOC, a Varley whose form has fallen off a cliff. Too many players who look incapable of cutting it at rabo level in our second string, more than in recent years.
The experience drain is being undervalued too. Leamy was present through the HEC group stages, Mafi was a colossus in midfield all year, Micko was there throughout the campaign. It's a blow that'll be felt. Thats without even mentioning the off-field presence.
But if people do think we have a better squad than last season and view Penny as a superior coach then what exactly are you season expectations? We finished 3rd in the rabo and made the HEC quarters under a poor manager who apparently had a weaker team so presumably you're all expecting trophies then?
Why do I hear this in Aaarnniiieeee's voice as Conan Zer Barbaaaaarian?
Vorsprung durch Pfennig.
The Double.
All joking aside. The play-offs in the Rabo and not get hockeyed out the gate. To qualify from the group in the HEC, and if we are lucky enough to get a team like Ulster at home again, to use the possession we get to good use. To play to our full potential and if we are beaten by a better team then so be it.
I think we are significantly weaker this year and have no expectations of challenging for silverware.
“We’ve been prepared well. There’s no excuses on that score. But there’s been a big clear out too. I've been sharing a dressing room with Hayes, Fla, Leamy, Quinny, Wally, Micko all my career, since Under 21, then there was Tomas and Fogs and Mafs there too. When you think about it, that's some talent. How many caps did they have between them ? ” he asks (1218 in fact).
“So it's going to be odd to be there without them. You're almost looking at the door, expecting them to come in. So yes there have been huge changes and I hope people realise that. When I came into the side we were evolving and there were days like we had against Ospreys. And we learnt and we came good."
"No reason why we can't do it again. We have the young lads coming through. It won't happen overnight. But I've no doubt it will happen."
Donners on the changes, robbed from the deadsite.
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/10748.php
Don't think this has been posted elsewhere. I'd be happy with Penney's expectations in red. Silverware isn't important this season as only 2 teams can win anything meaningful as we know. Purpose and style are the two things I would be happy with.
What a difference a year has made for Munster
Rob Penney
A YEAR ago, things in Munster were much different and much more familiar.
John Hayes was on his last lap, but still contracted to the province.
Jerry Flannery and David Wallace were trying to work their way out of injuries that would eventually end their careers.
"It's been different," Paul O'Connell concedes. "We probably had our own unique sense of humour and way of doing things.
"But there's a great group coming through. They have a great work ethic and skill level and they are a lot further down the track than we were when we were 20 or 21 with academies and all that. It is a changing of the guard. A lot of stalwarts are gone and adapting to that change is going to be important for us."
The most significant change has come at the top with the installation of boss Rob Penney. Like Michael Cheika and Joe Schmidt before him, a relatively unknown coach from Down Under has been handed one of Irish rugby's biggest positions. With no Super rugby coaching experience, Munster gambled on the man, not the reputation.
Penney wasted no time in getting to know his players. As part of their pre-season, he brought them to Tralee RFC for training and told them later that evening that they'd be spending the evening camping. "Their mouths dropped when they saw the tents," Penney smiles.
"It was summer time in Ireland, so we had to do some camping.
"There was some singing of songs, but I really wanted to see the boys outside of a rugby environment. It's about us as men and me getting to know you better outside of rugby. And credit to the lads they embraced it."
On Saturday, Penney's new era kicks off with a trip to last season's Heineken Cup semi-finalists Edinburgh.
He's already made his mark, installing fellow Kiwi Doug Howlettas captain, but with every word, Penney seems to be looking further down the track than this weekend or even this season.
CONFIDENT
"What I hope (by the end of this season) is that we have a group that is really confident about their future and what they can achieve. And that they have grown from this point to another level.
"Whether that will be good enough to win silverware is yet to be seen, but knowing this group, they will really try hard. We're after consistent performances. What I hope to be able to say is that they gave their heart and soul every time they played. If they achieve that, then it'll be a great spring-board for next year."
In the meantime, he hinted that Thomond Park could see some more expansive rugby and that marriage between Munster traditional values and his own views on the game would see the province thrive.
"Without pumping too many tyres too early, when we have all our big boys available, there is a group here that are capable of playing some exciting footy.
"I really like the ball to be utilised and the players to express themselves. That can mean a lot of things. Munster have a traditional style and we've got to match our style with the team profile.
"We've done some analysis of this group and what they can achieve. We need to be able to capitalise on defensive frailties that opposition teams might have. We need to grow our players and that doesn't happen over-night.
"But I'm conscious that I don't want to remove what has served Munster well over the past 10 years and hopefully it will be something Munster people will be really proud of."
- Donnchadh Boyle
Irish Independent
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