Deans wasn't the one picking the ABs squad!! Actually think Josh Lewsey was better FB than Geordan at the time. Always highly rated him.Originally Posted by Thomond78
Deans wasn't the one picking the ABs squad!! Actually think Josh Lewsey was better FB than Geordan at the time. Always highly rated him.
He had a massive input into selection; I think he was actually backs coach at the time. Plus, it's more fun blaming Dingo the Doomed.
Vorsprung durch Pfennig.
Ah here poor Robbie is on a hiding to nothing in his current job. The players just aren't there and fit at the moment. I would most certainly rather blame John Mitchell for ABs in 2003. Robbie was his assistant in his spare time from winning Super Rugby trophies with CrusadersHe had a massive input into selection; I think he was actually backs coach at the time. Plus, it's more fun blaming Dingo the Doomed.
like the new profile picture g2323....snap
Last edited by NotreDameRFC; 29th-August-2012 at 14:45.
"Lads, your not to miss practice unless your parents died or you died" Frank Leahy
Should be launching all the social media and venue/events this weekend so trying to get the word out early!!like the new profile picture g2323....snap
Don't underestimate Ibanez's rugby smarts. Had he tried to keep going on the outside Murphy would've had him. Hayes was getting to Clerc so clerc was going to have to pass or try to burn Murphy aswell, Clerc wasn't getting to Murphy early enough so that he could put Ibanez away down the touchline therefore Ibanez was going to have to angle in and luckily for him Murphy wasn't watching him do this.
I don't contend that he was stepped because he wasn't looking at Ibanez. When you say he didn't do anything what do you mean?
Murphy was in a position to tackle Clerc had he continued to try to attack Hayes. They both(Murphy & Hayes) had done virtually everything right up to that point (GM conceding ground to buy time for JH to get to Clerc.) bar Murphy continuing to look at Clerc for too long and failing to notice what Ibanez was doing. And Murphy has to drift towards the touchline because to help defend the mismatch inside him he has to tuck in a lot more to protect the man inside and defend from the inside out and use the touchline as an extra defender.
EVerything was fine up to the point where Murphy's constant watching of Clerc put him out of proper position to deal with Ibanez. One question it does raise is was Hayes talking to him enough to make him(murphy) comfortable enough to deal with his man? If Hayes was then its more of a black mark against Murphy, if Hayes wasn't then Murphy was in a tough situation but should probably have done better.
The problem is this is taking in isolation what wasn't an isolated incident. You've had stuff brought up before that defence coaches highlighted Murphy's defence as the wrong way to do it. It's not like Ibanez was the only one. I've always been a big fan of Murphy's talent and agree the leg break ruined him at his peak. I've often said he stood out in GPL because he was a skills player not an ape. BUT, his defence has always been poor. The higher the level the less you can carry that. It wasn't just about the Ibanez one, that was ultimately the final straw. IIRC that was the game where he had a few screw ups, was the the one where he not only managed to completely miss the ball as it went along the ground but then took out the other defender (Leamy I believe) to let the opposition player pick up and trot in. Whatever about Cooder's piss poor management skills (read every book in the last few years and they'll say it, was it DOC who said he was in a lift with the man and EOS acted as though he wasn't there), Murphy created his own problems with the media, not EOS.
\"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/co...d-3216546.html
Vincent Hogan on Geordan's petulance.
vincent wrote eddie's book
Connacht Rugby
"Live to win. Born to lose"
I think Dempsey's career is overrated sometimes. He was always noted for his safety under a high ball and defensively and as being M. Dependable. I think that was true for the latter part of his career. But it requires blocking out the 1st half of his INTL career at least.
I'll never forget RWC2003 qtr v France where he let the ball bounce needlessly and then went in half hearted which resulted in Olivier Magne (I think it was) run in what was undoubtadly the easiest try the frenchman ever scored at INTL level. The floodgates opened after that as Irish heads dropped at conceding such a soft try and the French sensed (again) that we were not up for it. It was K. Woods last game (He was immense that day despite the slaugtering). It was appalling and as bad as anything Murphy did. I don't remeber Eddie throwing the book at him in the press conference after.
There was plenty others but the above was the most costly. I also remember Girv de Swerve's habit of running the ball back from FB when collecting kicks, then stopping just before contact, before then going into contact on the tacklers terms which inevitably led to turnovers galore. Also his kicking from hand was atrocious.
The above is just to balance the discussion re Girve being ahead of Murphy. I think EO'S showed a lot more leniency towards Girve which paid off in the later years of the Girves career when he was fairly dependable although he never really provided like the better FB's an attacking option. EO'S did not treat the players he had the same. he had his favourites (Girve was one, S. Easterby another) which he protected from competition not to mind criticism. there were others who he either completely ignored or like Murphy openly criticised in my opinion.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again (like picking Gordon D'Arcy) and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein
I think you're possibly looking for items to use against Dempsey though. Maybe EOS didn't throw the book at him for that one mistake because he didn't have a track record of them like Murphy. Dempsey had a very good try scoring record, his tackling across his career was on a different level. He read the game as well and had a booming kick on him. He didn't have the creativity or the vision but Murphy got to the point where we couldn't afford him. Another thing to throw in for Dempsey is the yellow cards, he got a few and they were taking one for the team. He did whatever it took to stop a try, something few could really throw at Murphy.
The problem for Murphy was he was born about 30 years too late. Had he played in the 60s and 70s he'd have got away with being a non-tackling player with the talent he had. He'd have been a massive star but he wasn't born then and tackling 16 stone guys or at least trying was his job. For all the slagging about his tackling at least ROG tried and had the sense to at least stick his body in someone's way. He made the effort and got badly hurt trying to tackle much bigger players. You suspect had Murphy shown that same commitment he may have got away with it more than he did.
Last edited by Evil Omer; 1st-September-2012 at 14:12.
\"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"
A spiteful article by a mediocre sports hack. It's small wonder that it appealed to you, as the two of you appear to have a lot in common.
The difference is a winning mentality, a team with Murphy playing as he usually played will probably create more chances to win a game than a team with Dempsey, a team with Dempsey may prevent the opposition scoring easier than Murphy.
Watching murphy catch the ball in his ball in his own 22, he wanted to attack, with EOS as coach though he had to trot to the 22 and kick it as long as he could. It was not his type of game, while he was involved he played it the EOS way, Girve played it the EOS way better, it's just the EOS way was soul destroying for some and meant we did not win more games than we should with the wide pool of players he had.
problem is when your last line of defence is a swing door, which we've been finding with Kearney as well, it doesn't matter how many chances you create, you lose. Also Murphy has shown he had enough attitude to do what he felt was on so the Eddie made me kick it away argument isn't as proven as people believe. In reality Murphy played in the 2003 GS decider, we got hammered. We created chances, although actually he cost us an early try when the scores were level by being greedy and not feeding Hickie so the argument he'd win games for us doesn't cut it. We got spanked off the park that day. He played in several key games that cost us GS's. I think people do need to realise for all the talent, the fact Murphy was defensively weak cost Ireland games. The idea him not playing (74 caps guys, this isn't Matt Le Tissier we're talking about) cost us more wins is disproved by how little we won with him on the park. I'd also suggest my comment about Dempsey and YCs shows he had a winning mentality. People do tend to confuse a winning mentality with the Kevin Keegan school of OK we're crap defensively but our aim is to score one more than you. Over the years it was shown that doesn't work - both for Keegan and for Irish rugby.
\"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"
EO, you are doing exactly as I said earlier, 'blotting out all Girve's early career' where he was far from dependable and very error prone. He did become solid in later years but a lot of confidence was shown in him early on and it didn't always pay off (he kept his place despite some dreadful performances). I used the qtr v France as an example as I rememeber it well. He was truly brutal that day and that was a huge game. We had beaten France earlier that year in the 6n's and that was our big chance to do something at a WC (a bit like QTR v Wales at last RWC). That totally needless and brutal error by Girve that day destroyed the team morale and set us up for a drubbing. I think it belongs up there with the GM (non)tackle on Ibanez. Really really unforgiveable.
I'm not saying that G. Murphy didn't have flaws he did but I think there is merit to saying that EO'S didn't like him and was often forced into playing because 1) he was probably the only alternative FB we had to Girve & 2) the press really liked GM so kept pushing for him to play (remember vividly the calls for him at differen't junctures particularly for Arg match in 2007 RWC). EO'S never missed a chance to dish him in the press as if to make the point to press/public alike 'I only picked him because of you lot' and 'look how wrong you were'
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again (like picking Gordon D'Arcy) and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein
As he mentions in the column.
Is that the best defence you can up with for your ridiculous comment above? A sports hack says he wasn't his usual affable self? Or will you continue to ignore people that challenge your outrageous claims?
I'm not overlooking that Dempsey took several years to settle. At the same time that was happening I was one of those complaining that Murphy wasn't getting his game time. The difference was that the France QF was out of place for Dempsey. The Ibanez failure was totally in character for Murphy. Also, as I said, at least Dempsey stuck himself on the line, had Murphy at least shown a touch of the ROG and tried to stop these guys I suspect he'd have been cut more slack. I'm by no means saying EOS was a good coach - he was a good backs coach in his time but not a good head coach - and I know we could all argue all day about Murphy v Dempsey. But I think for Murphy to complain about his treatment over the Ibanez tackle is a bit rich considering he was considered a defensive liability for years by many observers.
\"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"
I don't believe a word of it. The fact is you can't unring a bell. G'wan Munster.
There are no miracles, only hidden laws. St Augustine
Stopped reading after second paragraph where he likens Moyross to be worse than Angola. Now there are nicer places in the world than Moyross and I have never been to Angola but that strikes me as Hogan being a pretentious little p***k. There are a lot of very nice people who live in Moyross.
I am one of the 5 clowns woo hoo
MCork, That's a fairly extensive critique of Dempsey. I'd add that his last man tackling was not at all good, often just hanging off try scoring players who had breached Irelands defensive live. Also in 2 v 1s he quite frequently tackled neither player!! Mind you Murphy was fairly crap at this aspect of the game also I suppose.
As for S Easterby being an EOS favourite, he may have been or not, but he was definitely the outstanding 6 (or 7) of his generation for Ireland and deserved everything he got. He was one of the few players to perform v France in RWC 2007 for instance, and for the Lions in '05, a really great player and a mighty warrior. Injury cruelly prevented Quinlan winning more caps when he was playing the rugby of his career in 2003 and at other times also and then he was banned for the Lions in 09 which was an awful pity, but at international level Easterby was a very steady, dependable performer who'd be hard to beat IMHO.
Last edited by Daithi; 4th-September-2012 at 16:16.
_________________________________
Irish By Birth, Munster By The Grace of God
I'd agree with both of you, Dempsey will be remembered as an excellent fullback beause he bowed out at the top playing the best rugby of his career. Like a fine wine he got better with age, he was never a pacey fullback so he didn't really slow up much and his reading of the game both in attack and defence got immeasurably better in his last 3 or so seasons.
Prior to this however he was limited because of his pace, was totally unsuited to the wing where EOS persisted in playing him for a long time, and was not the defensive "rock" he actually managed to become as a FB.
I think part of Murphy's problem at International level was in fact O'Sullivan, he undermined Murphy's natural self-confidence and flair with his rigid game-plans and thus if you didn't want to play heads up rugby Dempsey was the automatic pick IMO.
Whilst I would say Murphy is an unreliable defender at international level he is rarely shown up in the AP or HEC so one could perhaps ask why he struggled whilst in the all-encompassing environment of camp cooder?
Some eulogising of Girve going in here, to be honest.
Yes, he was fairly solid and had a good boot, but he was also a fairly limited footballer at a time that Ireland had the potential to do a lot more with counter ball than lump it into the stand.
From an attacking perspective, I think he was very much a weak link in a strong back line.
I suspect that Payne was the best all round FB that Ireland had available at that time, but his eligibility was never really embraced. I think he held tackle bags a few times.
All in, with everything we know about both, I think I'd still pick Geordan Murphy ahead of Girvan Dempsey if I was sent back in time.
We shouldn't forget how dispiriting it was to see Girve lump it into the stand under no pressure with half the park at his mercy.
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
One comment worth throwing in, context on Dempsey's lack of pace. It was acceleration that was his problem. Over distance he was regularly clocked, reported etc as one of the quickest, his problem (much like someone like Trimble) was a slow initial start. So whilst he was never in Murphy's class over initial 20m, beyond that he had decent wheels.
One last comment - how come when Murphy kicked it back all the time it was because EOS put a gun to his head and made him do it but when Dempsey did that it's because he was just ****e. This same thread contains examples of that double standard as did every debate over the two of them. Can we at least be consistent here?
\"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"
Very different types of player. Dempsey kicked it more often. thats all anyone is saying. just reflect on youtube videos.
Dempsey however was excellent at the basics. Even I've conceded that.
Connacht Rugby
"Live to win. Born to lose"
Utter gobsh1terry - he made a tackle (it happens in rugby). He was trying to make a hit and turn over the ball. He had no regard for his own well being. If you start thinking alone those lines on the pitch then you will get hurt.
Great hit. Motivated the entire team. He would do it again in an instant - I have no doubt.
I am Flsghujslkuo, and I approved this message.
I think the point being made though is that there's another side as well and both aren't wrong. The fact people are still talking about it shows it made a big impact. BUT at the same time, he could have got into serious trouble and as a leader there are wider potential implications.
\"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"
... he might if he could only bloody well remember how he did it in the first place. That's the trouble with concussion, you can even find it hard to remember your own name sometimes.
Dan
_________________________________
Irish By Birth, Munster By The Grace of God
Would it be a perception based on both players performances for their club/province? Dempsey did for Ireland what he did for Leinster but Murphys free licence at Leicester taken off him when with Ireland?
It didn't. When we saw BOD was goosed, there was a palpable, "Oh, ****" feeling went around Loftus from the Lions fans and the Bok fans were rightly pumped up. They'd have traded Roussouw for BOD any day, with a nearer like-for-like available to them. And rightly so.
Vorsprung durch Pfennig.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote