Premiership and Top 14 clubs threaten breakaway from Heineken Cup

[NotreDameRFC]

Id keep the 24 teams ...the 4x6 pools are perfect fir last match drama and keep the 6pool winners plus 2 best runners up...As for the make up of the 24...id go 3 leagues x 8 teams.That gives all teams a fair chance of qualifying.In the pro12 id make sure you had minimum of 2 Irish 2 Welsh and 1 each from Scot and Italy....with the other 2 spots coming from league position regardless of country.If amlin winner is outside top 8 they would replace the 8th ranked team from their league as automatic qualifer.Reducing it to 20 teams might been less upsets for who qualifies for qfinals as you'd have 5 group winners plus 3 runners up. as opposed to to 6 pool winners plus 2 runners up(24 teams)i think its the excitement of rd 5 and rd6 in pool matches and the endless speculation of qfinals make up that make the Hcup format the best format in world rugby.

[Bromance]

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/heinek...uropean-rugby/

[scotscor]

If my memory serves, when the Italians joined the rabo the deal was that they would hold onto their two hec spots for thre years.
Equally there was some deal with the scots where they would hold onto their spots for x number of years. Due up around now.

If each of the countries hada national league, then there would be no problem with a 2 italian, 2 scots, etc. The trouble is because we have a super league.

Also there is some crap that the English and French play their best side every week. The french defiintely don't they rest players for the games on the road they can't win. Or the ones they think ar easy wins.
Zebre get a spot because that was part of the deal when the italians signed up to both the HEC and the Rabo.

Another thing is that there is this notion that 20 teams is a viable comp. Its not viable, because it means extra games, and the french wont wear that hat.
So you have either 24 or 16.

For me the rabo is a better league and so deserves more places, we cannont have a system with less than 24 teams, I would be in favour of more wild card places though.
If more english teams get to the semis of either comp they should get more places.

[BOK]

Simple fact is, it's a red herring. You're buying the English clubs' spin without looking at the facts.

Almost all the teams who have won or been consistently competitive in the HEC have also been consistently competitive in their leagues. Edinburgh are the exception to the rule.

Can you show me any other Rabo team, in the entire history of the tournament, that has made the latter stages of the HEC while simultaneously bombing in the ML/Rabo? I can show you plenty who've simultaneously challenged for both.

Look I'm not buying no-ones spin. I simply dont think the Rabo can be considered a credible league unless there is something at stake for the majority of the teams. Thats what makes a league. The teams trying to win it, the teams trying to qualify for a bigger tournament and the teams fighting to stay in it. The only one of those the Rabo has is someone trying to win it, which in any one season is realistically only 2 or 3 teams. The FACT is the French and English aint happy and something IS going to change because as I said without either one of them it is no longer the HEC.

The fact the Rabo is spread over 4 countries is all that is making this messy. As it stands the ERC base the HEC on 6 countries whereas the French and English want it based on the 3 leagues. I dont agree the qualification should be the top 6 from the Rabo as the Scots and Italians wont get a sniff BUT I also dont think they should get automatic qualification just because there is only 2 teams from each of their countries. There has to be a balance met where each country is represented but one that also doesn't undermine the Rabo the way the current system does.

[Thomond78]

Of course the English are being greedy, but it's hardly fair that the likes of Zebre get a HEC place a few months after being formed.

Nor is it fair to try to deny London Welsh promotion to keep Newcastle up. But the Pro12 doesn't have the hypocrisy to then go telling untruths about qualification and/or relegation in other leagues straight after failed attempts to do just that in their own.

[munsterforever]

It seems a new anglo french comp will be born. hopefully the celtic unions will stand firm. It could be an opportunity for SKY and the ERC to sit down with the Georgian spanish russian romanian etc unions and say look...lets get serious and look at how the HEC can be put together as a true european comp. They would need help from the IRB of course, funding would have to come...SA/Aus/NZ could all make an important contribution too in terms of getting players and coaches on a crusade out to teams like gernika and tbilisi and getting these peripheral teams, (as the italians were many years ago) into the fold. In 10 Years time we could have the best and most inclusive comp in the world.

[BOK]

Id keep the 24 teams ...the 4x6 pools are perfect fir last match drama and keep the 6pool winners plus 2 best runners up...As for the make up of the 24...id go 3 leagues x 8 teams.That gives all teams a fair chance of qualifying.In the pro12 id make sure you had minimum of 2 Irish 2 Welsh and 1 each from Scot and Italy....with the other 2 spots coming from league position regardless of country.If amlin winner is outside top 8 they would replace the 8th ranked team from their league as automatic qualifer.Reducing it to 20 teams might been less upsets for who qualifies for qfinals as you'd have 5 group winners plus 3 runners up. as opposed to to 6 pool winners plus 2 runners up(24 teams)i think its the excitement of rd 5 and rd6 in pool matches and the endless speculation of qfinals make up that make the Hcup format the best format in world rugby.

That is probably a much better idea than my suggestion.

[Munsterboy]

Even if you are right about the Rabo that is of little concern to the other 2. The fact is without even one of them there is no longer a HEC in the proper sense so a compromise is going to have to be met.

Something like a prelim round could work. Personally I think the top two from Ireland and Wales and top 1 from Scotland and Italy is the way to go, having 6 from each league and the amlin and HC winner. Doubt it will happen but I reckon it's the fairest solution.. Either way it'll be interesting to see what happens as the result of this could change the face of club rugby in Europe for the foreseeable future.

Under your system, you could very easily have a HEC with 20 teams, 8 of which come from the AP. You really want that many clubs from a single country in the competition?

The joy of the HEC is not just in its quality (which is very high), it's also in its variety. You shouldn't be comparing the number of teams from each of the 3 leagues. You should be thinking about the number of teams from each of the 6 nations involved.

Even if you ignore variety and just consider the quality angle, you're suggesting excluding one of Munster, Leinster or Ulster but keeping 6 AP clubs. You really think that would improve the quality? Are Sale a better club to have involved than any of the Irish sides? Of course they aren't. It would reduce both the quality and the variety of the competition, making it simply less interesting to watch.

The English clubs are trying to make an argument that reducing the Rabo teams to 6 would be a good thing for the competition but it's obvious that everybody (except the very gullible) that it will really only be good for them.

[Adam1986]

I actually think the proposals brought forward by the AVP teams are quite good BUT, the manner in which they brought them forward makes the blood boil. The French want change but don't seem quite as hardline or arrogant as the English counterparts. I would be in favor of striking a deal with the French on qualification. If we could deal with them and isolate the English I would be glad. Negotiation is about discussion between parties on a solution not bully boy tactics. Im not saying we can but if the French would deal with us and abandon the English it might remind them of their MANNERS at the table.

I want all nations to be part of it but isolating them for a while might remind them of the fact that were all partners in this but we are not subservient to their interests.

[déiseman]

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,2...075389,00.html

[BOK]

Under your system, you could very easily have a HEC with 20 teams, 8 of which come from the AP. You really want that many clubs from a single country in the competition?

The joy of the HEC is not just in its quality (which is very high), it's also in its variety. You shouldn't be comparing the number of teams from each of the 3 leagues. You should be thinking about the number of teams from each of the 6 nations involved.

Even if you ignore variety and just consider the quality angle, you're suggesting excluding one of Munster, Leinster or Ulster but keeping 6 AP clubs. You really think that would improve the quality? Are Sale a better club to have involved than any of the Irish sides? Of course they aren't. It would reduce both the quality and the variety of the competition, making it simply less interesting to watch.

The English clubs are trying to make an argument that reducing the Rabo teams to 6 would be a good thing for the competition but it's obvious that everybody (except the very gullible) that it will really only be good for them.

Firstly keep the gullible s**t in your own pocket. Secondly maybe my idea is not viable, Notredame made, I actually think, a much better suggestion than my own.

It doesn't matter a toss about the perceived quality of the participating teams. For a competition to be fair in any sport, equal representation is a must. Since that cannot be done by country then it has to be done by league. The trick is by finding a way of doing that so each country is still represented.

And a person doesn't have to be gullible to see that there IS going to be a change cause in case your forgetting the French have given in their notice of leave to the ERC aswell. I'm simply voicing my opinion on what change I would like see and what I perceive as the fairest solution.

[NotreDameRFC]

An alternative to to my initial suggestion would be to replace the Hcup with the old Interprovincials since we are dominating Hcup anyway booya ....take that ye old English hordes

[LeakyBoots]

It's some mess. Greed is an awful thing. Ruining most of the sports I love

[Piquet]

Can you show me any other Rabo team, in the entire history of the tournament, that has made the latter stages of the HEC while simultaneously bombing in the ML/Rabo? I can show you plenty who've simultaneously challenged for both.

Munster in 2003-4 finished seventh in the League and reached the Semi-final
06-7, Munster sixth, QF.
07-8, The Ospreys sixth, QF
08-9, Cardiff sixth, SF
11-2, Edinburgh eleventh, SF, Cardiff seventh, QF, Ulster sixth F.

[MrsMcGahan]

The bottom line is a European competition involving only English and French clubs will be a flop.
Much as it frustrates the English they need the Pro Rabies teams to make the European cup what it is today.
This reality will force some sort of deal in the end.

[<BM>]

The English are really shooting themselves in the foot on this one. Most French clubs can take or leave European Rugby, they have no reliance on it. The ones that bother are usually very well bankrolled, the rest field b teams and concentrate on the domestic championship. French teams would take an Anglo-French competition even less seriously and maybe wouldn't bother with one at all, chosing to concentrate on their domestic league should they exit the ERC.
An ERC without English and French teams still leaves a pan national tournament, albeit diminished a more RaboCup kind of dealey but with opportunity to expand, Spain, Romania, Georgia, Russia, English regional sides under the auspices of the RFU (controversial but the RFU would love to win back some power from PremierRugby).
It leaves the French insular as ever but probably ok while it leaves the English kind of ****ed. International TV exposure wiped out. Domestic TV exposure decimated. Reliant on their existing fanbase to get them through.

[NotreDameRFC]

Boks are pissed off with super rugby as its killing currie cup and seen to be propping up aussies ......swap English for boks ...same time zone...sorted.


group a

munster
western province
ospreys
racing


same time zone ....massive crowds.....sorted


hell lets invite pumas team based in Paris to join Hcup too


kill off pship and aussies in one go.......

[Munsterboy]

Munster in 2003-4 finished seventh in the League and reached the Semi-final
06-7, Munster sixth, QF.
07-8, The Ospreys sixth, QF
08-9, Cardiff sixth, SF
11-2, Edinburgh eleventh, SF, Cardiff seventh, QF, Ulster sixth F.

You've proved my point. Finishing 6th does not constitute "bombing". Under the AP clubs' proposal it would qualify a team for the following year's HEC.

Apart from the Edinburgh example already mentioned, you could only find one instance of a ML/Rabo team - Munster 8 years back - who did well in the HEC and didn't finish in the top half of the league table.

By contrast, over the last 5 years of the HEC, at least 2 ML/Rabo teams that made the knock out stages of the HEC also finished in the top 4 of the league.

07/08 Munster & Cardiff
08/09 Munster, Ospreys & Leinster
09/10 Ospreys, Leinster & Munster
10/11 Leinster & Ulster
11/12 Munster & Leinster

And any ML/Rabo who has won the HEC has also finished in the league top 4 in the same year.

The suggestion that Rabo teams are only competitive in the HEC because they don't concentrate on the league doesn't stand up for a second. Look at the facts.

[Kavy]

Janet mac, ND is full of ideas today.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

I dislike Mike McCafferty immensely but, man, he's good at his job. Nor is it any surprise that he's first out of the gate and put the well fed, complacent ERC on the back foot. The HC & Rabo definitely need a shake up but it leaves a bad taste in the mouth to give the Prem clubs exactly what they want.

[Red Hand Hero]

Id keep the 24 teams ...the 4x6 pools are perfect fir last match drama and keep the 6pool winners plus 2 best runners up...As for the make up of the 24...id go 3 leagues x 8 teams.That gives all teams a fair chance of qualifying.In the pro12 id make sure you had minimum of 2 Irish 2 Welsh and 1 each from Scot and Italy....with the other 2 spots coming from league position regardless of country.If amlin winner is outside top 8 they would replace the 8th ranked team from their league as automatic qualifer.Reducing it to 20 teams might been less upsets for who qualifies for qfinals as you'd have 5 group winners plus 3 runners up. as opposed to to 6 pool winners plus 2 runners up(24 teams)i think its the excitement of rd 5 and rd6 in pool matches and the endless speculation of qfinals make up that make the Hcup format the best format in world rugby.

Not being rude but I genuinely cannot see a reason why the English should get 8 teams. The Rabo get the teams they do because we are a conglomerate of countries that have come together with a common goal- a league that can be sustainable and competitive. Now I am not saying there are not faults, there undoubtedly are, but I firmly believe 1-10 in the Rabo are stronger that 1-8 in the AP.

If I were to make one change to the qualification system it would not be wildly away from your own suggestion but it would involve the Rabo teams keeping their existing quota's to ensure maxmal exposure across the nations. Currently, if I am not mistaken, Ireland have 3, Wales have 3, Scotland and Italy 2 places each. I think everyone country should have only one automatic entrant-their top finishing 'seed' in the league, meaning that the other 6 places are up for grabs by whomsoever deserves them on merit. I think that is a positive step for both the credibility of the Rabo and also a genuine incentive to improve for each team.

[Kavy]

A housekeeping issue. I wonder if a Mod might merge this thread with the newest version. I'd imagine both will be busy later otherwise.

[Cougar Moon]

Good Idea Kavy

[NotreDameRFC]

Not being rude but I genuinely cannot see a reason why the English should get 8 teams. The Rabo get the teams they do because we are a conglomerate of countries that have come together with a common goal- a league that can be sustainable and competitive. Now I am not saying there are not faults, there undoubtedly are, but I firmly believe 1-10 in the Rabo are stronger that 1-8 in the AP.

If I were to make one change to the qualification system it would not be wildly away from your own suggestion but it would involve the Rabo teams keeping their existing quota's to ensure maxmal exposure across the nations. Currently, if I am not mistaken, Ireland have 3, Wales have 3, Scotland and Italy 2 places each. I think everyone country should have only one automatic entrant-their top finishing 'seed' in the league, meaning that the other 6 places are up for grabs by whomsoever deserves them on merit. I think that is a positive step for both the credibility of the Rabo and also a genuine incentive to improve for each team.

Your not being rude at all RHH ...we are basically on same page...

Currently pro12 have 11 teams ( Irish success has meant Conn get in) in hcup ...so only dragons missed out...which even the most ardent of pro12 follower would agree that's too much...maybe it should be 10 or even 9...maybe 8 is too little
. I actually dont think there is much difference in quality between teams ranked 8,9,10,11,12 in the respective leagues.
....im just more interested in making pro12 a more competitive league where every match matters including an end of season mid table battle which may have hcup qualification for victor .
If it means giving another place or 2 to AP and T14 as a consequence ...then for me its a price worth paying.

[rathbaner]

It'll be interesting to hear what Conor O'Shea has to say about this on TV tomorrow night as he has the RFU, Premiership and Celtic nations perspective.

This has the potential to mortally wound ERC Ltd so I'd expect a fight. English clubs don't own the rights to HEC games and I'd expect the IRFU/SRFU and FIR to back the ERC. Though this should be Twickenham's fight the RFU is capable of doing a deal with the clubs in return for RFU endorsement of the BT deal.

The Top 14 and FRU are on the same page and God knows what the Welsh will do.

Enjoy the HEC this year folks, this could be the last season of this comp.

[the plastic paddy]

The best tournament in sport is in danger because a bunch of small d*cked premiership club owners can't handle losing, pathetic.

[Red Hand Hero]

I dislike Mike McCafferty immensely but, man, he's good at his job. Nor is it any surprise that he's first out of the gate and put the well fed, complacent ERC on the back foot. The HC & Rabo definitely need a shake up but it leaves a bad taste in the mouth to give the Prem clubs exactly what they want.

I disagree, I think he has really isolated himself and the league.

The £154million or whatever ballocks figure is floating about is a red herring. The real value will be less than that, by how much nobody but PRL and BT will know but I'd have a punt at the following-

At a simplistic level if you place the AP and the HEC on an equally valuable footing you'd split the money into 7 tranches, 4 years of AP and 3 years of HEC. If that was the case you could look at the Aviva Prem BT deal only being worth £88Million across the 4 years which is closer to the estimated £54million that the AP clubs received from the Sky/ESPN joint bid for a three year deal. I can't imagine thatBT would pay more than £100Million for the AP for 4 years as that would be around a 40% increase on the current Sky/ESPN deal and the standard of the English game has dropped over the past three years IMO.

[Cathal]

It seems a new anglo french comp will be born. hopefully the celtic unions will stand firm. It could be an opportunity for SKY and the ERC to sit down with the Georgian spanish russian romanian etc unions and say look...lets get serious and look at how the HEC can be put together as a true european comp. They would need help from the IRB of course, funding would have to come...SA/Aus/NZ could all make an important contribution too in terms of getting players and coaches on a crusade out to teams like gernika and tbilisi and getting these peripheral teams, (as the italians were many years ago) into the fold. In 10 Years time we could have the best and most inclusive comp in the world.

No chance, how do you think they'll get IRB approval for that?

[The Outlaw]

The best tournament in sport is in danger because a bunch of small d*cked premiership club owners can't handle losing, pathetic.

might have helped had we sorted out the Rabo. Then they wouldnt have a leg to stand on. Currently they can legitimately ask what Zebre did to qualify for the HEC.

The HEC cant pretend to be an elite competition when it has some minnows (including my own province) in it.

So while I dont like the English clubs or agree with their nuclear option.

They do have some points worth listening to.

[MrsMcGahan]

It'll be interesting to hear what Conor O'Shea has to say about this on TV tomorrow night as he has the RFU, Premiership and Celtic nations perspective.

This has the potential to mortally wound ERC Ltd so I'd expect a fight. English clubs don't own the rights to HEC games and I'd expect the IRFU/SRFU and FIR to back the ERC. Though this should be Twickenham's fight the RFU is capable of doing a deal with the clubs in return for RFU endorsement of the BT deal.

The Top 14 and FRU are on the same page and God knows what the Welsh will do.

Enjoy the HEC this year folks, this could be the last season of this comp.

No such thing will happen.
The HEC is a golden goose.
It also needs the Pro Rabies teams, especially Munster and Leinster. It covers 4 nations. This is a big problem for breakaway groups.