Meh, even if they get it changed to the top 7 or 8, we will more than likely qualify anyway, but it's not about us. It's about making sure Scotland and Italy have representation in the HC. At a time when Edinburgh actually make a SF, and Treviso show improvement, the English and French want to throw that away to satisfy their greed. Well I hope Big mouth McCafferty's bluff is called.Originally Posted by busby
I think it's a bluff. They wouldn't kill the goose if it came down to it, and the greedy chairmen that are jealous of irish success will soon come around and cop on. There's no way they can kick the scots and Italians out of the European cup in my opinion, it's that simple.
Wizened Rugby-Betting tin-foil-hat bearers
dropkickrugby.com/forum
It makes sense and would make the HEC and the Rabo a much better tournament, the guaranteed 10 points a team might get when they draw a **** Italian team or the Welsh etc would be finished with, it would also put mid table teams into pressure games at the business end of the season when next years HEC spot is on the line even though your 7th in the table and not a hope in hell of the semis for your domestic league.
Being spoon fed HEC spots just because your special and from Italy is farcical.
Im here to spread the word..common sense is not just for animals
How would having the 7th or 8th best english/french teams improve the competition? I don't see the arguement that these teams are that much better than Treviso/Edinburgh for example. Such a move would also, potentially, set the game back years in Italy. Why would we want that or think that's a good idea?
As has been suggested by others, why not have a qualification system amongst the countries be, for example, Top 2 from Ireland and Wales, Top 1 from Scotland and Italy and have the other position/positions qualified via league placing?
There is no doubt in my mind, having watched the Premiership inside out for the past five years, that their 7th and 8th best side have any prospects at all, and don't merit inclusion over a Scottish or Italian or Irish side. This seems to be simply about money to me.
Qui Bono? Follow who benefits if they get what they want, and we'll see how easy it is to shoot down. Do the RFU get anything out of one or two more teams? Is it just the extra English players playing that they would benefit from? Is this about keeping the smaller nations in their place on the international scene, and the knock on of less money, less Heineken cup meaning more big stars fromthe SH go to their leagues?? Is it about more tv-rights for the lesser clubs(7 and 8) who dont get that many televised games?
it all stinks of money to me.
If anything changes qualification-wise, it'll be something like what you said there i'd say .
Last edited by thepunter; 23rd-August-2012 at 21:12.
Wizened Rugby-Betting tin-foil-hat bearers
dropkickrugby.com/forum
Its the likes of Zebre, Connacht, Dragons and Treviso that need to be removed from the Comp.
London Irish, Bath Rugby, Stade Francais and Bordeaux would have made up the extras this year giving the HEC a bigger audience, a better quality of rugby and a better spectacle.
It also would have given the likes of Gloucester, Biarritz and Perpignan, massive European clubs, something to fight for at the end of last season.
The 4 lesser teams from the Rabo could then compete in the Challenge Cup, a great competition in itself and the ERC could remove the automatic qualification for Amlin QFs for HEC group runners up.
Im here to spread the word..common sense is not just for animals
To QUOTE=Duffman above
Its the likes of Zebre, Connacht, Dragons and Treviso that need to be removed from the Comp.
-Connacht have only had ONE year. And they beat the English champions at home and lost by four away
-Dragons don't get there as the fourth Welsh team- so not sure what youre on about there
-Zebre and Treviso are hard to argue against, but we cant keep the Italians out of it if we want a vibrant SIX nations into the future with kids coming through.
London Irish, Bath Rugby, Stade Francais and Bordeaux would have made up the extras this year giving the HEC a bigger audience, a better quality of rugby and a better spectacle.
Them four were useless last season - better quality of rugby!? You must be joking. Bath were diabolical, not much will change. London Irish the same, Bordeaux(not sure if theyre massive?) just lost at home to Grenoble last week. There's an argument for Stade Francais, just for the followers, despite the fact theyre a middling team at best.
It also would have given the likes of Gloucester, Biarritz and Perpignan, massive European clubs, something to fight for at the end of last season.
Gloucester capitulated last season away to Leicester when they had a chance of playoff rugby- you wouldnt see connacht doing that, and theyre worse for wear this season arguably woith players that have left and come in.
Perpignan nearly went down last season (they wont this season, but still)
Biarritz are nothing without the Yachvilli.
The 4 lesser teams from the Rabo could then compete in the Challenge Cup, a great competition in itself and the ERC could remove the automatic qualification for Amlin QFs for HEC group runners up
I have no problems with that, but the competition will- if you dont have the big names in the Amlin that fell through the cracks, you wont have an audience and the competition will die.
Duffman, i've alot of time for your posts normally dude, top man and all, but you're talking through your bum possibly.
Last edited by thepunter; 23rd-August-2012 at 23:59. Reason: spelling
Wizened Rugby-Betting tin-foil-hat bearers
dropkickrugby.com/forum
But the Rabo is not a credible league at the moment. There are too many games that mean little or nothing in the mid-tier. If the Rabo improves as a product then so should our teams.
I would have no problem with Edinburgh being out of the HEC with their attitude towards the Rabo last year. It was scandalous. If anything the Scottish and Italian teams should improve if the Rabo improves.
Connacht Rugby
"Live to win. Born to lose"
And yet a league that is supposedly lacking in credibility, still produces teams from that league to produce a level of intensity in HCs that is too hot for teams from supposedly more competitive leagues. Perhaps they should be careful what they wish for ? What you'll possibly get is the top 4 or 5 Rabo teams who are there at the business end, are even more competitive.
Pardon me for having an opinion in relation to rugby matters but I'm inclined to agree somewhat with Outlaw. We all know that the holy grail for at least three of the four provinces (apologies to Connacht) is the final stages of the European Cup.
Up until three or four years ago the Celtic League (under whatever guise) was fairly competitive. But take a look at Edinburgh last year. Bradley didn't give a hoot about the league because he knew that regardless of performance they would be in the pools come '12/'13 and finished in second last position.
Who the f**ck are Zebre? Unheard of last season, they fly straight into the HEC pool stages (I can see Biarritz or 'Quins putting 100 points on them). However, even if they turned out to be a decent side, why are they not placed in the Amlin Cup. Are they somehow deemed superior to Gloucester, London Irish, Perpignan, Bath, Newport, Stade Francaise? I think not.
As for Glasgow and Edinburgh, so what if they can't make the grade? Week after week in the League we see Stadia like Murrayfield ring hollow with the sound of fewer than 2,000 supporters.
Having said all that, the idea that only six sides might make it to the European Cup from the Celtic League is to my mind nonsense. Try eight.
In fairness, every team should be forced to compete for their places. There should be some value attached to merit.
Tommy O'Donnell - David Wallace Mk. 2.
Aside from Zebre and Aironi though, there's no argument for adding in the brit and french teams instead, see post in reply to duffman above.
It should be- the Top Scottish team, top Italian team, top two welsh and top two Irish teams, and the top two after that make the cup, from wherever. Dragons, Cardiff, Aironi/Zebre connacht, edinburgh ( who can improve) will make up those that don't make it.
you have to have top Scot and top Italian in it, or the 6 nations will suffer and so will their national game in general. Nobody wants that deep down, not even the English and French. If the game doesn't grow, they won't either in the long run.
That's the way to do it.
Wizened Rugby-Betting tin-foil-hat bearers
dropkickrugby.com/forum
Italy survived when the majority of their squad were playing in France and how many of the Scottish internationals are playing in England and France now?
To be fair to the Punter I called it wrong on the teams to be given the boot from the HEC, Connacht on merit should have qualified finishing 8th last year and Edinburgh should be shown the door.
Barring Edinburgh’s run for the semis last year it is generally the teams who play at a high standard of rugby week in and out in the PRO12 progress farther in the cup, if the Ospreys, Cardiff, Scarlets and Ulster were offering up a higher level of rugby each week they would improve and possibly take Munster and Leinsters dominance down a peg or two.
Also how is it fair that 2 Leagues that have given the HEC 6 different winners and another 10 runners up including all of those winners get to give 6 teams each per year and the PRO12 lands 10 teams in each year after producing only 2 winners since its humble beginnings in 2001.
Im here to spread the word..common sense is not just for animals
Ironically, I would also argue that when none of us took the league all that seriously (i.e. back in the early 00's), Irish sides couldn't win the HEC and were frequently beaten out by English and French clubs. As the standard of the league improved and we took it more and more seriously, the HECs started to come our way.
How will a 20 team competition work? Will there be four Pools of five or five Pools of four? If the former, will it be a single round or a double round?
With five Pools of four, 12 matches will be lost. With four Pools of five, and a single round, 32 matches will be lost. With a double round, there will be eight more matches in total, but each team will have to play two more matches. Where will these matches be fitted into the schedule? The English and Welsh would be able to dump the LV= Cup but what about the French? This season, they've started already and are due to keep going 'till the first of June.
I don't think they've thought this plan through.
“We’re in this mess, not because Fianna Fail policies have failed, but because they have succeeded.” They haven't gone away, you know"
Thats 1 team out of 12. It would be more accurate to focus on the 11 who did try.
I dont see why people here are suggesting 2 irish, 2 welsh, 1 scottish and 1 italian....
what the heineken needs is to be represented by irish, welsh, scottish, italian, english and french
so only 1 irish, 1 welsh, 1 scottish and 1 italian team should be automatic, the rest by league position, i think thats more than fair
I do wonder at times if some of the people making the statements from the aviva Prem or the french league actually pay any attention to the pool results or do they only know who the tournament winners were ?
Treviso are finally starting to get some results in the HEC with a draw & a win at home last season, so it would be very disppointing to see them getting evicted from the HEC when they've finally started to find their feet.
Plato: \"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.\"
I would argue Treviso are improving because they are playing in the Rabo. I think they'll improve further playing in a more competitive environment with less dead rubber matches. This is more likely to affect my province then yours but I can see the merits in having a serious Rabo league. At the moment it isn't.
Connacht Rugby
"Live to win. Born to lose"
LL, Treviso have always been handy enough, they have beaten a number of teams at home in the HEC and finished second behind Leinster about 6 years ago. Its the other Italian side who have generally been poor
...in what way will you feel more Irish if you force me to give up my feeling of being British? - David Ervine
as pk says a 20 team tournament doesn't work because of the calendar. So what the anglos are saying is if the celtic league was four seperate leagues the would have no problem with this many teams, but because its one they need to reduce numbers in the hec.
Hmmmm.
A 16 team league would be excellent in terms of quality, and calendar but is just too small. So really you need 24 (there are not enough teams in Europe to make 32, (national teams from Georgia et al are a non runner).
How about 19 teams from the leagues on a 7 celts (including at least one from each country), 11 from the anglo french depending on who is ahead in a merit order (of results in the previous season) - that is 5 from one country and 6 from the other, and 4 from the amlin. If an amlin side has already qualified their league gets another place.
This makes the Amlin far more competitive, reduces the numbers from each of the main leagues
...in what way will you feel more Irish if you force me to give up my feeling of being British? - David Ervine
What are peoples thoughts about the threat all this carries for refball to favour the French/English teams in the upcoming Heineken? There's no question it'd increase their tension if an Irish side won it again while weakening their claim if it was French/English dominated.
Your sums are seriously wrong, there, Scots. Eleven from the Anglo-French plus seven from the Rabo is 18, not nineteen. Nineteen ( or eighteen) plus four from the Amlin is 23 (or 22)
“We’re in this mess, not because Fianna Fail policies have failed, but because they have succeeded.” They haven't gone away, you know"
I can understand the French and English complaint, Edinburgh being the example, but we must also recognize that all the 6N's should have representation in the HC, so why not the top 3 Irish and Welsh automatically qualify along with the top Scottish and Italian team qualify. The remaining 4 teams get drawn against the 7th and 8th place French and English sides with the winners going into the HC and the losers the Amlin.
AP owners not interested in 24 team HC they want it to be 20 teams so that the amount of money is divided up amongst fewer teams , this is about the money and to a lesser extent about control of the ERC. The French owners are not happy about the amount of money the HC generates compared to the Top 14 and do not like how strong the Celt influence is in the ERC . The win/loss ratio between CL and the AP & Top14 year on year is growing and must be a concern hence the attacks on the Rabbo . Whatever about the strength or weakness of the Rabbo for me there has been a clear decline in the standard of the teams in the AP and this is reflected in the results in the HC . Since 2007 and the retirement of a generation of outstanding English players their team's results have declined . Are Leicester a genuine contender to win the HC this season ? They have since the start of the competition been one of the favourites. Is that still the case this season ?
I do expect AP sides to do better in this years HC because there is no WC . Their teams will have 6-8 matches leading into the start of this years HC compared to getting their players back two matches b4 it started last year . Their teams will be settled , combinations and pattens of play honed compared to the Irish Provinces who will be undercooked as usual .This gives them a clear advantage most seasons hence their best result against Irish sides happens in round 1 . The constant disruptions to the Irish Provinces by having their best players pulled during the season , undoing any progress in team patterns gives a clear advantage to AP & Top 14 sides , that they have not been able to take advantage says much about the standards in their leagues .
The English wouldn't back playoffs between the leagues for a very good reason, they know it wouldn't favour them in their current state. I wouldn't have a problem with the idea of playoffs but as outside inside said its obvious from the structure of their proposition that fairness isn't on their agenda.
And the winners of the HEC, double counted the winners of the Amlin though
...in what way will you feel more Irish if you force me to give up my feeling of being British? - David Ervine
This is all about money, and is the application of Tea Party economics to the game of rugby in NH. The rich (England and France) want to get richer and screw the poor (everyone else, except the Welsh perhaps). For better or worse, we are stuck with 2 Italian teams in the HEC and with a weakish Italian team in 6 Nations. This introduction of Italy to 6 Nations was not made to reward them for their outstanding form in the late 80s and 90s, but to boost the number of 6 Nations matches for TV viewing from 2 to 3 each 6N weekend i.e. money. There is a salary cap in England because the club game there, despite headline one-offs filling Twickenham for club games, cannot (Tigers aside) pay its own way, and so is flailing about for revenue from somewhere, anywhere. Look at Wasps once the sugar daddies left, look at Newcastle since the Halls lost interest. These clubs want more money to buy more players and abolish the salary cap, and they do not give a damn if the Scots and/or Italians cease to play the game at all. Last year, on another thread here,I posted the financial status of English clubs as gleaned from The Guardian, and they all, bar a handful, lost large sums of money. Likewise the French, and just look at the economics there - take the Michelin company out of Clermont finances, or Fabre out of Castres, and they will go the way of Bourgoin, Montauban, Colomiers (remember them?).
It is all about the money.
I agree that Zebre should not be in the HEC, but Treviso are improving year on year and need encouragement.
Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch! "Not only is it not right, it's not even wrong!"[Wolfgang Pauli]
Niall slams Euro begrudgers
By Simon Lewis
Wednesday, August 29, 2012
English and French clubs should learn from Ireland’s Heineken Cup success and not use it as a pretext for opting out of the competition, according to Munster team manager, Niall O’Donovan.
The former Ireland assistant coach, now part of Rob Penney’s new management team in the province, was reacting to growing threats by the English and French leagues to boycott the Heineken Cup over the perceived lack of a level playing field in Europe’s premier club competition.
England’s Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty said last week that tournament organiser ERC had been put on two years’ notice of the two countries’ clubs’ intention to quit the competition unless automatic qualification for the Celtic nations was removed.
The Anglo-French axis believes the Heineken Cup should be reduced from 24 to 20 clubs with an even split of entrants between the top sixfinishers in each of the RaboDirect Pro12, English Aviva Premiership and French Top 14 plus the defending champions and Amlin Challenge Cup winners.
At present, three Irish, three Welsh, two Italian and two Scottish clubs are guaranteed entry while the Rabo’s lack of relegation also angers the English and French, who say their efforts just to stay in their leagues and fight for a top-six place each season mitigate the squad rotation policies deployed to great effect by Munster and Leinster to win five of the last seven Heineken Cups for Ireland.
When asked about the row, O’Donovan said yesterday that he saw merits in the Anglo-French grievances but insisted yesterday Premiership and Top 14 clubs were just as capable of following the Irish model of resting players throughout the season. "This all happened 12 or 13 years ago as well. When it doesn’t suit England or France, whatever... they’ll complain," O’Donovan said, referring to an English boycott of the 1998-99 Heineken Cup.
"The idea that people can qualify automatically probably is a sticking point, there is no doubt about that. But we are playing with four different countries here as well and if you to take a European cup, then you need everyone playing in it. If they want to limit it to France and England, then it isn’t the European Cup, as such. You have to have the spread and have the balance right on who is playing in it. You have to have teams from Scotland and you have to have teams from Italy. And there has to be teams from Ireland.
"The amount of teams going through, I am sure, is up for review and things like that, but it is hard when you see their leagues and the way they play their leagues.
"If you look at the way the French play their leagues, they play very strong teams at home, they play their weakened teams away, so they are resting players all the way through their season as well.
"If it is as intense as they are making it out to be, they’d be playing their top team on a regularly weekly basis. Ten or 12 years ago this all happened when the English clubs pulled out and a few of the Welsh clubs pulled out as well. So it issomething that’ll have to be addressed."
The Munster team manager also accepted that the non-Celtic nations needed to be appeased in terms of financial rewards from the Heineken Cup when the ERC’s current accord expires in 2014.
"It is probably a big factor, the whole financial thing. They are contributing more than the other four countries and that’s fair enough. Population-wise, England and France have the bulk."
Yet rather than gripe about Irish success in a competition which will see Leinster go for an unprecedented three titles in a row this season, thanks in part to the IRFU’s player welfare programme limiting the game time of its centrally contracted players throughout the campaign, O’Donovan said the English and French clubs should perhaps adopt the system themselves.
"We have been successful at provincial level and been (successful) at a certain level at international level as well. They probably look at it and say they’d love to have our system but they have bought into a different system completely.
"This is something the IRFU promoted 12 years ago and went after it and it has worked well for us. Instead of knocking it at times maybe they should be learning from it."
Irish Examiner
4 Feb 2011 - Gilmore on the General Election
"Frankfurts way or Labours way."
28 Feb 2012 - Gilmore on a yes vote for the fiscal treaty
"A vote for economic stability and a vote for economic recovery."
It would be a disaster if this was allowed to happen. Not only would it be the end of the H. Cup as we known it but also be the end of Pro Rugby in Ireland IMO. I cannot see The Rabo league sustaining pro teams in Scotland, Italy and Ireland. The Welsh Regions I am hearing will throw in their lot with the Anglo French.and as far as they are concerned the rest of us can go kiss our backsides.
I think for the good of the game the IRB should veto any breakaway. After all all rugb ysupporters and players, clubs, all want the H.cup and look upon it as the pinnicle.
Maybe its time to counter bluff and refuse to play them at Inernational level. What a laugh that would be
I don't think the Welsh will enter a competition with the French and English. For starters their bread and butter is the Rabo league and I presume the Rabo countries will be joining forces to counter the English/French requests. The WRU funds the regions and they need WRU money so they're not completely seperate entities.
A Welsh/English/French competition wouldn't have anywhere near the financial backing as the HEC so those countries would lose out in any case. Call their bluff.
It could all end up working out in our favour if there is to be changes. For instance you could guarantee each country 1 HEC spot. That would be 4 spots and you could have the remaining 4 or 5 qualifiers based on league position. That would make the Rabo league more competitive and the Rabo league is more important than the HEC for Irish rugby. A better Rabo league means more money will flow into the league through attendances, TV rights and sponsorship etc. Therefore we wouldn't need to rely on the HEC as much.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote