Premiership and Top 14 clubs threaten breakaway from Heineken Cup

[Liam2me]

The Aviva Premiership clubs are due to meet early next month to decide the level of the salary cap after the 2013-14 season. Their decision will be influenced by the outcome of the dispute over the future of the Heineken Cup and whether the sums being floated in the deal proposed by BT Vision and its projected incomes are guaranteed.In essence is the promised land of BT worth exploring when set against the certainty of the Sky deal with ERC? The picture becomes more complicated.The club owners are confident that, even in a worst-case scenario and they are ostracised from Europe and France do not play ball over an alternative competition, they are cushioned by their confirmed league contract with BT. The size of the salary cap stands at a maximum £4.5 million plus the wages of one trophy player. The formula by which it is worked out is linked to the annual central revenue distributions to clubs from Premier Rugby Ltd (PRL).“By linking the salary cap to central distributions, it also means that as the collective business of Premiership Rugby develops, there is equal opportunity to all clubs,” a PRL spokesman said.Critics will note with interest that PRL holds great store in the value of collective negotiation on its part, yet does not seem to see its merit in a European context. That surely will only add fuel to the fire.It will certainly do little to persuade the five other unions whose teams compete in the Heineken Cup — Ireland, Wales, Scotland, France and Italy — that the BT route is one worth pursuing. They are not in a position to take a stance as yet because there are so many unknown quantities. Until PRL furnishes the exact financial breakdown of the deal, no headway can be made.To tempt other countries to join them and usurp the influence of ERC, as the controlling body of European club rugby, PRL has referred to a “bigger cake” being available for everyone. At some stage, however, and Rome on October 8, the next scheduled meeting between the protagonists, would be a good starting point, they have to reveal their hand.“The English delegates at the ERC [meeting on September 18] did not say anything about how the money from the deal will be shared between the domestic and European competitions and how it will be shared with the other countries’ clubs,” Jean-Pierre Lux, the ERC chairman, said.All they have managed to do, despite the strength of their grievances over format and structure and division of spoils, is alienate and unite in opposition those with whom they need to persuade by force of argument rather than coercion. They have batted away arguments about breach of contract and control and ownership of rights with the response that, as they have already given notice of their intention to not to carry on in the tournament under its present guise, all bets are off. However, it is difficult to know what PRL’s next step can be.If negotiations end in stalemate, PRL’s last resort is either a legal challenge to the European Commission citing the abuse of a dominant position by ERC, or an official complaint to the Office of Fair Trading. Either course will take time and money and with no certainty of success.The complex nature of the European rugby jigsaw does not make life easy. There are many elements, not least the participation of six countries, three different leagues and languages, competing and conflicting visions and qualification processes.Reconciling all these elements, and coming to an agreement when emotions are running so high, will not be a straightforward exercise.http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/...cle3550781.ece

[taz]

Gerry Thornleys take on it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...324726158.html

[Huwie]

Wales get no guarantees over their Heineken Cup qualification


................. PRL and the French have given notice of their intention to quit Europe unless changes are made, raising fears the hugely successful tournament could fold.


France, it is believed, want the dates to be tweaked so the tournament is over each April, a month earlier than currently, so their focus can switch solely to their Top 14 title-race.


It’s understood the Celtic nations and Italy would agree to the French demand, believing it would isolate the English.


McGrath, speaking at the London launch of this season’s Heineken Cup, denied the tournament’s future was in jeopardy.

“It’s not a crisis. We have clearly been working over a period of time on the future,


There is no concern about change. We have a history of changing things, doing things differently.


Each party comes to the table each with their own business model to defend and everyone wants to prosper in difficult circumstances.


All the clubs are very keen that the competition generates bigger rewards for everyone and that is what ERC has always done.


It’s right and proper that we should do it and that we shouldn’t be afraid to consider any issues, proposals or challenges to the business, but there are some fundamentals in terms of how we approach that and how we have always approached doing business together.


I suppose it was two years ago when French clubs said they would be reviewing the Accord.


Therefore, it’s not as if this has landed on top of us.


We know there’s a desire to make the tournaments stronger and more attractive. That’s always been the case.

In developing any of the commercials deals we have done, the focus is always on predicting the future.


Any such deals are designed in a way that protects all parts so, if there is a change, no party is put in a position which is untenable.

McGrath admitted there were complexities, pointing out six unions and 44 clubs had to agree on deals.

“Where there is strength, there is frailty,” he said.

[Red Hand Hero]

That was a filler piece if ever I saw one. Basically as we have all discussed-Change is inevitable, the English blew their load before they'd even got their johnny on and the French must be kept on side.

Presently I wouldn't be overly worried-The french, as Thornley points out and Ally McCoist might put it, don't do walking away in this instance. That is not to say they are not 'greedy' in their own terms, the ridiculous 'barrage' carry on being a case in point, however they do seem to acknowledge the short, medium and long-term value of the HEC.

Personally I am not sure if the French are as motivated about money as they are about genuinely changing the tournament lay-out as it stands. They generate a pretty significant revenue through the T14 rights as is and whilst the HEC has undoubted prestige for many of the clubs it simply gets in the way.

If we were to reduce the HEC to 20 teams as has been suggested it would be interesting if the French would agree to a 5/5/8 split in favour of the Rabo with the HEC and Amlin winners getting automatic qualification. This sort of move would in theory at least improve the standards and gravitas of the second tier competition though I am not convinced that in reality this would. Football has seen a dumbing down of standards of the Europa league, especially by the English clubs, which up until the last 6-10 years was still a sought after accolade. I could imagine that the same could happen for the French teams involved and potentially some English teams that may not have great squad depth. Ultimately what means more a good run in the Amlin or retaining top division status?

There is, IMO, still plenty of wriggle room for all parties to come to an agreement that suits all parties to greater or lesser degree's. I imagine there will be some pain for the SRU and FIR in particular as they don't, IMO, deserve two automatic places. In truth I think the Celtic nations should only have one automatic qualifier with the rest of the places going into a pot and being allocated according to league position. This has the potential to a)force the Scots and Italians to up their games and b)create more visible competition in the league. By visible i mean unquestionable to outside groups. We all know that it is largely a ruse that the English in particular say the Irish, for example, don't take the league seriously but ultimately if we remove the, largely groundless, grip then we provide ourselves and the rest with another stick with which to beat them. The Rabo is still has now been in operation in one form or another for over a decade and perhaps it is time that we use this situation to the advantage of all stake-holders internal and external and create a better competition.

[Waterfordlad]

I think a 5/6/7 split might be better - (AP/T14/R12) - give an extra one to the French and really put the feline among the birdies

[scotscor]

I think the three options of 7,7,8+2 (24), 5,6,7 +2 (20) and 5,5,8 +2 (20) all have merit. I think the 567 option would need to be phrased as 557 +2 +1 or 556+2+2 with the additional spots going to the best performing league in the previous years competitions.
In complexity can be a solution that all parties can bring back that will satisfy their constituents.

[The Outlaw]

listening to the derek mc grath interview it looks like the format will be changed to some degree. Certainly looks like he's teeing it up.

[Hugged Rugger]

So if its 20 teams how many pools and teams would there be?

[rathbaner]

BOPB will be goosed if it drops to 20.

[Piquet]

So if its 20 teams how many pools and teams would there be?

Five Pools of four would keep six rounds of Pool matches with the five Pool winners and the best three second teams progressing to the Quarter finals. As before nine rounds of matches would be played.

Four Pools of five with teams meeting home and away would result in ten rounds of Pool matches. There isn't room for this option.

Four pools of five with a single round would mean five rounds of Pool matches. This would free up a week in the schedules and might be an attractive option, given that the French want the competition over earlier. Even more so if only the Pool winners progressed, leaving just two rounds of knockout games and seven rounds of games in total. The loss of revenue to the clubs from gate money and to the ERC from TV money could count against this option.

On balance, I'd say five pools of four teams.

[scotscor]

I'd agree piquet, also the four pools of five with just five rounds, would give a huge advantage to whichever of the top two seeds had the home advantage in that game and would take a lot from the cup.
If its 20 teams its going to be 5 pools of four. Personally I'd expect it still to be 24 teams

[Drick]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19878759
European rugby talks end with no
solution to impasse

Talks over the
future direction of European rugby have broken up with no solution to the
impasse.

The meeting in Rome ended after six hours with rugby executives agreeing to
continue negotiations in Dublin on 30 October.

The existing European Rugby Cup deal expires in 2013.

English Premiership and French clubs want changes to the Heineken Cup format
from 2014 and have threatened to quit the competition.

The row was further complicated when Premiership Rugby and European Rugby Cup
Ltd struck separate television deals for the rights to show their games.

Speaking after Monday's meeting, Rugby Football Union chief executive Ian
Ritchie told BBC Sport: "I think it's not going to be resolved in one meeting.
It's got to be seen as a priority but it's not going to be sorted this week or
next."

In a statement the European Rugby Cup, the body which runs European club
rugby tournaments, said: "The meeting featured six hours of comprehensive
discussion on a broad range of issues raised by stakeholders including the
structure and format of the European club rugby tournaments.

"All parties reaffirmed their desire to see European club rugby's tournaments
continue to grow and develop further and to involve all of the current
participant stakeholders."

[Piquet]

Taking a more detailed look at the "five Pools of four" scenario, If there are six teams from each of the three leagues, plus the winners of the HC and the Amlin, there could be some horrendous Pools.

If , say a French team win the HC and an English team win the Amlin, they will each have seven teams.

Two pools will , therefore, have two English and one French teams, two will have two French teams and an English team with the fifth having one of each.

[Piquet]

Applying what the Premier League Clubs want as the criteria for next year's competition, and tweaking it to allow one team from each Rabo Nation to qualify, the Pots for this years competition would have been:
Pot One: Leinster, Toulouse, BOPB, Munster, Northampton (Edit Cardiff gone)
Pot Two: Clermont, Ulster, Leicester, Harlequins, Toulon (Edinburgh gone)
Pot Three: Ospreys, Scarlets, Glasgow, Saracens, Sale (Connacht gone)
Pot Four: Castres, Treviso, Racing, Montpellier, Exeter. (Zebre gone)

If there were no tweaking, Cardiff would qualify and go into the first pot with Northampton slipping down into Pot Two, Toulon into Pot Three and Sale into Pot Four.

Munster could still have got Racing and Sarries but with EMBRA out, we could have got any of the teams in Pool Two except Ulster.

Leinster and Ulster could both have got the same Pool, but , of course, the draw would have gone in a completely different direction, there being only five Pools.

[i_like_cake]

An unusually good article here from Ackford...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rug...hip-Rugby.html

[lahinch_lass]

An unusually good article here from Ackford...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rug...hip-Rugby.html

Very interesting piece and well worth the read .. first piece pointing out that maybe the english premiership teams aren't as good as their lords & masters would claim. He's pointing his finger more at the coaches at the clubs rather than anything else.. Conor O'Shea seems to be the only one he rates but he did forget that 'Quins went down to connacht last season when he was assessing their chances of getting out of their pool (which includes connacht again) this season!

[Drick]

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/19905.php


ERC stakeholder meeting statement


12 December 2012 15:54pm

Representatives of all ERC stakeholders met in London for the fourth meeting of the consultation process aimed at formulating a new Accord which will provide for the structure and format of European club rugby tournaments for the 2014/15 season and beyond.




The meeting agenda included an evaluation, conducted by ERC, of the merits and the rationale for the proposed changes to the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup, as well as the impact on all stakeholders of any changes to the format and structure of both tournaments.While the evaluation provided the basis for discussion, the meeting ended without agreement. Jean-Pierre Lux, ERC independent Chairman, concluded the proceedings by calling on all parties to take time to reflect on their positions and to consider the collective objectives of the stakeholders.
Jean-Pierre Lux said: "After four meetings, it is extremely disappointing for all involved that we have not yet made sufficient progress towards a new Accord.
"These tournaments have become cherished by the clubs, players, supporters and our partners. Everyone around the table remains committed to making European club rugby stronger and we are confident a solution will be found.
"Together we have developed very successful and compelling European competitions built on solidarity, inclusivity and respect for sovereignty.
"Ultimately, ERC's competitions depend on the support and agreement of the clubs and Unions in all of the participating countries, and now each nation must reflect on what is the best way forward for European rugby as a whole."
While no date was set for another stakeholder meeting, the Board of ERC is scheduled to meet on 6 February 2013 when it will review the consultation process to date.
The current Accord, which was agreed by all stakeholders in 2007, includes a two-year notice period which began on 1 June 2012 to allow for negotiations towards the formulation of a new Accord. The structure and format of both the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup remain in place until the end of the 2013/14 season.
ERC stakeholder meeting attendees:
Jean-Pierre Lux (ERC Chairman)
Derek McGrath (ERC Chief Executive)
Ben Calveley (RFU)
Mark McCafferty (Premiership Rugby)
Bruce Craig (Premiership Rugby)
Michel Palmié (FFR)
Olivier Keraudren (FFR)
René Bouscatel (LNR)
Philip Browne (IRFU)
Peter Boyle (IRFU)
Fabrizio Gaetaniello (FIR)
Orazio Arancio (FIR)
Mark Dodson (SR)
Ian McLauchlan (SR)
Stuart Gallacher (Regional Rugby Wales)
Steve Phillips (WRU)
Notes
• Representatives of ERC stakeholders have to date attended four meetings within the consultation process aimed at the formulation of a new Accord: 18 September 2012 (Dublin), 8 October 2012 (Rome), 30 October 2012 (Dublin) and 12 December 2012 (London).
• Forty four clubs from eight countries participate in the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup annually.
• 2012/13 is the 18th season of European club rugby.