Premiership and Top 14 clubs threaten breakaway from Heineken Cup

[LeakyBoots]

Couldn't find this posted elsewhere, they're at it again!

Premiership and Top 14 clubs threaten breakaway from Heineken Cup

• English and French clubs want qualifying process changed
• Premiership chief says Celtic nations have unfair advantage

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• Paul Rees
  
• guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 22 August 2012 16.53 BST

Premiership and Top 14 clubs have threatened to break up the Heineken Cup format by forming a new tournament. Photograph: Paul Harding/Action Images

The leading clubs in the Aviva Premiership in England and Top 14 in France are ready to organise an alternative tournament to the Heineken Cup because they feel European rugby's premier club competition is weighted too heavily in favour of the Celtic nations.
Leinster and Munster have dominated the Heineken Cup in recent years, winning the trophy between them in five of the last seven seasons with Leinster champions three times in the last four tournaments.
Rivals in England and France believe the success of the Irish sides is largely because they are able to rest players regularly during the RaboDirect Pro 12 campaign as qualification for the following season's Heineken Cup is a virtual formality, something that is not the case in the Aviva Premiership and Top 14.
"Most of the Ireland squad will not be released for the Pro 12 until rounds three or four, something they could not do if they depended on their finishing position in the league for European qualification," said Mark McCafferty, the chief executive of Premiership Rugby. "The clubs in England and France have served two years' notice that we intend to pull out of Europe because there needs to be a level playing field.
"So far, the response from the other countries has been slow, even though we are not sabre-rattling. We have not been locked in talks and there is no meeting about the issue until the end of next month. Our view is that the qualification process needs to be changed so that it is entirely merit based – the top teams in all three leagues as well as the winners of the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup should make up 20 sides taking part."
The English and French clubs want to ration the Pro 12 involvement to the top six teams in the league, which would run a risk of Scotland and Italy, whose teams currently qualify automatically, not being involved in a Heineken Cup campaign.
"I think those countries have effectively made that decision by forming the Pro 12," said McCafferty. "It is like me saying that the Premiership has to provide a qualifier from the south-west. It cannot be good for the competition that you do not have the best sides qualifying. Aironi were disbanded at the end of the last season and the newly formed Zebres go straight into the Heineken Cup.
"Are the Italian teams ready for the Heineken Cup given their record? It is all put into perspective when some really big names are not involved and the system plays a role in the way Leinster and Munster have dominated the competition in recent years. European Rugby Cup Ltd is dragging its heels and I cannot understand it."
McCafferty acknowledged that the two sides were approaching the problem from different directions. "Some 80% of our business is the Aviva Premiership," he went on. "It is what drives our revenue and gates.I understand the Pro 12 model is different, but we cannot damage our core competition for 20% [the Heineken Cup].ERC should know that we are serious and while the issue has to be resolved, everyone has to realise we cannot carry on as we are. If it is not, we would go to an Anglo-French competition and if others wanted to join us, fair enough.
"I feel for the Welsh regions because they are caught in the middle. They have financial issues and you cannot build a business on three home games. Ireland have a central system with the union funding everything apart from the overseas players. Wales are reliant on private money largely and they need a business with 15 home fixtures. I think changing the qualification for Europe would strengthen the RaboDirect."
ERC denied that it had been slow to respond. "We have held meetings with all our shareholders and asked them to draw up proposals which will be considered at next month's meeting. Notice was served by the French and English clubs and the French Rugby Federation at the beginning of June and it was agreed at a board meeting a few days afterwards was that we would have a workshop in September after holding briefings with everyone.
"We do not want to enter a war of words with Premiership Rugby, but we have been working away in the background and we are in the second phase of the consultation process."

[glorob]

This is merely the Premiership negotiating through the press for a bigger slice of the ERC cake.

There is no way the IRB will sanction an Anglo French cup competition instead of, or in opposition to, the Heineken Cup.

[East Terrace]

Perhaps if the Aviva Premiership concentrated on getting the standard of the teams in their competition up to the same standard as the Pro12 teams, they would attract better gate attendances, thus providing the cash they so obviously crave to grab more of from ERC. Also how can we call it a European competition if two of the Six Nations countries have very little chance of qualifying for it??

[the plastic paddy]

Funnily enough, top six from the rabo and extra teams from the AP, a sh*te league, and the T14 who would put out kids teams in the HEC would make Munster, Leinster and Ulster's life easier. It would be an absolute disaster for italian and scottish rugby however not that these c*nts would concern themselves with supporting the game of rugby as long as they can undermine those unions so they go back to being whipping boys in the six nations. Arrogant pr*cks.

[John Cooper Clarke]

I'm not so sure. The English clubs didn't play the year Ulster won the European Cup, so a no show is not without precedent.

[russo]

Going to throw a wild accusation out there: This is from the league who didnt want to relegate Newcastle and promote London Welsh becasue their ground wasnt up to scratch. (i think..) How is one of the lower teams going to get the funding without playing in the upper leagues? Was this fair? Fair enough it's been resolved now but they were still sticking to their guns.

Another point: Maybe if they didnt have the Anglo-Welsh cup they could rest and provide more players to the H Cup......

[Balla Boy]

Leinster, Ulster, Munster, Blues, O's, Scarlets, Embra.

6 from 7 to qualify, the other into the Amlin where they'd probably end up anyway.

It does nothing to create the sort of pressure they are carping about.

It's no good complaining that Munster and Leinster have the advantage of not really having to qualify when they both finish in the top six year in year out anyway.

They just can't bring themselves to say "we want to put our ****e mid table teams in instead of the Italians".

[Ragusa]

This is merely the Premiership negotiating through the press for a bigger slice of the ERC cake.

There is no way the IRB will sanction an Anglo French cup competition instead of, or in opposition to, the Heineken Cup.

Agreed - The English and Serge Blanco types in France live in a World where they feel that they own European Rugby. Any format on an exclusive basis for these 2 countries would also be outlawed by the ECHR - remember the Bosman Ruling.

[bigron]

I would like to see the competition expanded, add another 8 teams. Do away with the best runners up, Have a round of 16 and allow a proper qualification process for the quarters.

While searching for a more comprehensive list of the clubs in Europe. I stumbled across this which i am sure some of ye will enjoy reading.

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/conten...gby-clubs.html


Looking at the possible inclusion of Portugal, Spain and Romania and Russia and Georgia in a lower tier competition could be an interesting addition. These are huge television markets revenues derived would surely ofset the extra costs.

[The Outlaw]

I'm not totally against what they are saying. Rabo fails as a product because of the HEC qualification process.

Its anot just about the HEC its about making the Rabo the best product it could be.

I accept the point it will make no difference to Leinster and Munster. But HEC qualification should be top 7 only from the Rabo. The likes of Edinburgh take the piss every year.

[dropkick]

They should just admit they want more money. Their excuses are so bad is laughable.

The English and French clubs want to ration the Pro 12 involvement to the top six teams in the league, which would run a risk of Scotland and Italy, whose teams currently qualify automatically, not being involved in a Heineken Cup campaign.
"I think those countries have effectively made that decision by forming the Pro 12," said McCafferty. "It is like me saying that the Premiership has to provide a qualifier from the south-west.

Theres not much logic behind that statement. The HEC is organised by 6 countries, not by 3 league.

Saying that Irish players have an unfair advantage by playing less is basically saying he wants the Irish players to be overplayed like the English players. Thats easier than admitting English players are being overworked.

[Thomond78]

Ireland have a central system with the union funding everything apart from the overseas players.

Fair play, as bull**** goes, he's not messing around with the small stuff, is he?

[garryowen2323]

"Most of the Ireland squad will not be released for the Pro 12 until rounds three or four, something they could not do if they depended on their finishing position in the league for European qualification,"

Jeez Leinster and Munster should really get those internationals back playing every match so they can make the top 6................oh wait!

[McCloud]

Start of a new season and the same old same old from the English & French camps.

[Drick]

Couldn't find this posted elsewhere, they're at it again!

This has been an ongoing thing since last April.

http://www.munsterfans.com/threads/3...nd-at-it-again

http://www.munsterfans.com/threads/3...-qualification

[i_like_cake]

Pffffft.... Well Done Leinster.... ye had to ruin it for everyone else.....








(whistles away)...

[lawrence]

He has a point on a few things.

The newly formed Italian team should never have been allowed into the hcup

[DJLethal173]

Must say that I agree with Gerry Thornley in the Times 100%...deja vu! http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...322767248.html

"Nor did the tougher qualification systems in England and France prevent the English clubs winning five Heineken Cups in an eight-year period (1997 to 2004) or Toulouse from winning four Cups to augment Brive’s success in 1997, nor indeed the all-French finals of ’03, ’05 and ’10 and all-English final of ’07. Indeed, in those days we were told that the competitiveness of their leagues was supposedly a virtue.

And why, then, has the easier Celtic qualifying route not facilitated the Welsh winning it once or the Scots from reaching more than one semi-finals? Of course, it was Edinburgh reaching a first Heineken Cup semi-final last year while finishing 11th of 12 in last season’s Rabo Pro12 which gave the Anglo-French axis its most compelling argument."

If they break away, fine, **** them

But in doing so they will have effectively ended the Heineken, and with that their players exposure to top-flight rugby.

All the Celts and the Italians will be in the same position as Argentina were a few years ago with no competitive domestic tournament to speak of. It will hurt all the Euro teams including England.

Maybe the French could get away with it given the structure of their Top 14. But as for us, the Rabo is too infested with weak teams to be considered an adequate substitute for Heineken Rugby. I mean, taking on Zebre is not exactly the same as Saracens in Wembley, Stade in Stade or Clermont in the tyre factory.

While I do agree that there is a deficincy in the number of English teams reaching the "business end of the tournament, it is not down to the tournaments structure. Rather, in much the same was that the best answer to the Greek problem in the Euro-zone is for Germany to leave the common currency, the problem in the Heineken is the format of the Aviva Premiership. Therein lies the problem.

[i_like_cake]

The two teams in the Leinster Northampton game....

Northampton Saints: B Foden; V Artemyev, G Pisi, D Waldouck, P Diggin; R Lamb, L Dickson; S Tonga’uiha, D Hartley (capt), B Mujati; M Sorenson, C Day; S Manoa; T Harrison, P Dowson.

Leinster: A Conway; A Boyle, B Macken, J Coghlan, S Coghlan-Murray; N Reid, I Boss; J McGrath, R Strauss, M Moore; L Cullen (capt), D Toner; D Ryan, J Murphy, L Auva’a. Replacements: T Sexton, H van der Merwe, J Hagan, T Denton, B Marshall, J Cooney, I Madigan, C O’Shea, F Carr, J O’Connell.


Someone want to ask these English crybabies why they are flogging their full team against a bunch of academy players sprinkled with first teamers...
admittedly the Premiership starts earlier than the Pro12... but this is a joke...

they probably will have their full teams out against London Welsh and Worcester as well...

[zachler]

Any format on an exclusive basis for these 2 countries would also be outlawed by the ECHR - remember the Bosman Ruling.

This statement makes NO sense.
Bosman was a ruling by the EU's Court of Justice in Luxembourg, NOT the Council of Europe's European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. Plus, it was a ruling relating to the freedom of movement of workers, a fundamental EU right. Basically, it stated Bosman wasn't 'owned' by his club.

Bosman has no relevance here. I doubt an European Court (in Strasbourg or Luxembourg) would get involved.

[Cowboy]

The two teams in the Leinster Northampton game....

Northampton Saints: B Foden; V Artemyev, G Pisi, D Waldouck, P Diggin; R Lamb, L Dickson; S Tonga’uiha, D Hartley (capt), B Mujati; M Sorenson, C Day; S Manoa; T Harrison, P Dowson.

Leinster: A Conway; A Boyle, B Macken, J Coghlan, S Coghlan-Murray; N Reid, I Boss; J McGrath, R Strauss, M Moore; L Cullen (capt), D Toner; D Ryan, J Murphy, L Auva’a. Replacements: T Sexton, H van der Merwe, J Hagan, T Denton, B Marshall, J Cooney, I Madigan, C O’Shea, F Carr, J O’Connell.


Someone want to ask these English crybabies why they are flogging their full team against a bunch of academy players sprinkled with first teamers...
admittedly the Premiership starts earlier than the Pro12... but this is a joke...

they probably will have their full teams out against London Welsh and Worcester as well...

First XV lines out in the hopes the fans will fill the ground and make a few £££££ off the back of it?

[Muckier Boots]

Ah, the biennial Anglo-French fanny fit. Almost as much of a fixture as the competition itself.

It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so childish. Essentially, they're pissed off that they've only managed one Heineken Cup in the last five between them. Typical English imperialist attitude.

[Thomond78]

This statement makes NO sense.Bosman was a ruling by the EU's Court of Justice in Luxembourg, NOT the Council of Europe's European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. Plus, it was a ruling relating to the freedom of movement of workers, a fundamental EU right. Basically, it stated Bosman wasn't 'owned' by his club.Bosman has no relevance here. I doubt an European Court (in Strasbourg or Luxembourg) would get involved.

Forget it. I know from experience you've two chances trying to get that facts to oust a settled perception!

[Dowlinz]

The accusation doesn't even have merit given how poor the Welsh and Scottish teams have been in the competition.

As I've said before if coefficients are introduced it would see the places for the weakest of the three leagues (Premiership) having their numbers reduced, they should be grateful they have so many in there as it is.
While the current system may be unfair, a static top 8 qualifying is also unfair on everyone who isn't the weakest league. If we use a coefficient system the Rabo would get about 10 spots and the Premiership reduced to 4 with the dynamic of performances altering that allocation in future years. That'd be fairness.

[The Outlaw]

The accusation doesn't even have merit given how poor the Welsh and Scottish teams have been in the competition.

As I've said before if coefficients are introduced it would see the places for the weakest of the three leagues (Premiership) having their numbers reduced, they should be grateful they have so many in there as it is.
While the current system may be unfair, a static top 8 qualifying is also unfair on everyone who isn't the weakest league. If we use a coefficient system the Rabo would get about 10 spots and the Premiership reduced to 4 with the dynamic of performances altering that allocation in future years. That'd be fairness.

Would Sky promote a HEC without the english clubs? Debatable. i'm not saying they are right but we've done very well on the back of Sky's promotion of the competition.
If England and France pull out we all lose out. So we'll have to compromise on something. Would make the Rabo better too.

[fitzy73]

Would Sky promote a HEC without the english clubs? Debatable. i'm not saying they are right but we've done very well on the back of Sky's promotion of the competition.
If England and France pull out we all lose out. So we'll have to compromise on something. Would make the Rabo better too.

The BBC had the European Cup when the Tans had their last hissy fit.

Couldn't see Sky wanting it, tbh. Maybe ESPN would pick it up but they'd be offering peanuts without the English or French teams.

[busby]

They are well within their rights to take this position, and i really wouldn't be getting precious with "hissy fit" comments. We are getting far more out of the competition than they are, and our teams are at a major advantage. The cribbing by the provincial coaches about the player management programme is hilarious when you consider the actual benefits our players get from it when playing in the HEC.

The attitude towards the Celtic League by the National Unions is a complete farce, if this leads to that changing then i'm all behind it. And i fully expect the Unions will come to an agreement, as the Celtic Unions are fully aware that they are up ****s creek without it.

[JN.Allezdax.com]

The english proposition is laughable when you know that the biggest phantasm of the Ligue in France is a Top12 without relegation. Somebody wrote about the english imperialism... Don't forget there is another great imperialist country who always gives lessons to the world in spite of the loss of its influence: France. By us, the Professionnal League is more or less in conflict with the Fed.
The Leagues involve private interests who look for a fast economical result through immediate successes, so through big investments, where the Feds try to defend their image, especially through the image of their national team, so as many children as possible come to them, trying to make themselves durable. The idea of provinces in France is still in the air in the Fed. But the moguls that rule the professionnel sector have no interest in such a system.
And then are coming the Celts, you know, these people who avoid the great powerful french or english multinational companies to rule the european rugby, sharing the titles between themselves. What an insult! The Celts (at least irish and scots because if I am not wrong, Welsh teams are private teams too, aren't they?), under the direct controle of their feds. Exactly what the french clubs want to avoid here... Vade retro, Celtanas! Go away, let the Great Capital plunder the strenghs from abroad (Some voices here are speaking about dangers, concerning the lack of renewal of key players- even William Servat spoke about dangers concerning the scrum-, and about the places that are let to the local young players).
English and french private clubs together... It seems always so strange to me when I see great economical ennemies joining their efforts so the egocentric system they defend can rule the world for their own advantage. It's like the tale of this scorpion that asks a frog for help to swim across a river...

[East Terrace]

I would like to see the competition expanded, add another 8 teams. Do away with the best runners up, Have a round of 16 and allow a proper qualification process for the quarters.

I think the 2 runners up spots ads a bit more bite to the games and spectator interest coming into rounds 5 & 6. Gives teams in second place (which can be very good teams) something to fight for..

[HenryFitz]

The idea that a lack of rest impaired the English teams is nonsense. Look at all 7 of the English teams in the last HC and 2 of them were all but gone after the first 2 rounds (Northampton, London Irish), when their players had the same amount of rest post-WC as their Celtic cousins. In addition, Leicester failed to take bonus points at home to Ulster or away to Aironi, pretty much killing their chances. Third and fourth rounds, Bath were hockeyed by Leinster and tumbling down their own league. Quins knocked out Gloucester and were doing all right till the last round but failed to get bonus points, then lost to a Connacht side who weren't any more rested than Quins. Sarries meanwhile beat the Ospreys, one of the best teams in the Rabo, despite the Ospreys being able to rest their players. So where was this disadvantage manifesting itself? What examples can McCafferty point to of a rested Rabo team qualifying ahead of an exhausted AP team, all other things being equal?

Simply, the whole argument, while superficially persuasive, has no evidence to back it up.

So it's all about money, and a greater share of the pie.