IRFU out of sync with the demands of the modern game

[Old Dog]

Interesting.

"......... On the eve of internationals, Declan Kidney regularly has to present his plans for the next day to the National Team Review Group. This is a five-man posse -- Philip Browne usually bows out to leave it at four -- where Pa Whelan and Tom Grace lead the charge. If this were the mid-1970s, their input might be useful. Instead they are at the core of an organisation that excels at managing money but consistently cocks up the development of the game. "


http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugb...a-3203583.html

[The Last Stand]

Interesting.

"......... On the eve of internationals, Declan Kidney regularly has to present his plans for the next day to the National Team Review Group. This is a five-man posse -- Philip Browne usually bows out to leave it at four -- where Pa Whelan and Tom Grace lead the charge. If this were the mid-1970s, their input might be useful. Instead they are at the core of an organisation that excels at managing money but consistently cocks up the development of the game. "


http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugb...a-3203583.html

Thanks. That is nuts if true.

[the_dazz]

Mind blowing! But I think Munster suffers from the same amateurism at times, that why I'm so happy to see Penney there but what about when Axel takes over and all the boys hes known for years in Munster start getting in his ear? I could see Penney building something big in Munster and it never coming to fruition because of all the old boys. The sooner all the old boys of Irish rugby **** off the better.

[Balla Boy]

Growing playing numbers, record attendances, 5 Heineken Cup wins.

Whatever we think about the new stadium, or the trappings of blazerism, the reality would seem to be that something is going very right somewhere.

[Thomond78]

Growing playing numbers, record attendances, 5 Heineken Cup wins.

Whatever we think about the new stadium, or the trappings of blazerism, the reality would seem to be that something is going very right somewhere.

Fanning has an axe to grind - with which I have no issue, so long as he does not then pretend to be objective. He was on-message when he was the mouthpiece of the then incumbent, when this was the same. So, the questions to be asked are: why now, and not then; and cui bono?

[isola ciarrai]

Have it on excellent authority that it was Tom Grace who pushed the lunatic ticket prices a while back to accelerate the repayemnt of the LR debt. TBF Whelan did get TP completed on time and within budget but cannot imagine some of the Munster Ireland squad players are delighted with his investment advice, though he did follow it himself to his ruin.

[The Outlaw]

Fanning has an axe to grind - with which I have no issue, so long as he does not then pretend to be objective. He was on-message when he was the mouthpiece of the then incumbent, when this was the same. So, the questions to be asked are: why now, and not then; and cui bono?

Fanning is simply highlighting the fact that in a power driven collision sport we have no national head of conditioning OR any co-ordinated policy on it. Anyone who thinks thats a good thing is quite frankly better off watching the Premiership(soccer version)

Also he's talking about international rugby not provincial. That's beyond the realm of debate here unfortunately.

[Thomond78]

Sigh.

No international conditioning coach can dictate the shape of the players coming out of sub-national teams unless he controls their pre-season. Simply: it takes more time than they get in the international windows to change the shape of players mid-season. It can be done in Wales, because the WRU is baas (and that had its own downside, because Gatland breaks players and the Welsh regions suffer as a result). The only way to have that control is to move the club/country balance in favour of the Irish team. That's been hinted at, recently. Except... That means curbing provincial power over the players and the conditioning regime in those provinces for game for which they are to play week in, week out, in favour of what's dictated centrally. So, we come back to: cui bono?

Moreover, I repeat: this is not new. If it's an issue, it was in the past, too. So, why now?

[Old Dog]

Growing playing numbers, record attendances, 5 Heineken Cup wins.

Whatever we think about the new stadium, or the trappings of blazerism, the reality would seem to be that something is going very right somewhere.

Yes indeed. Silly me, I must have imagined that humiliating 3 - 0 trouncing in New Zealand, only 8 weeks ago.

[Balla Boy]

Yes indeed. Silly me, I must have imagined that humiliating 3 - 0 trouncing in New Zealand, only 8 weeks ago.

I didn't say all right. But whatever criticism is to be levelled at the blazers has to acknowledge that they have overseen the most successful transition to professionalism in the northern hemisphere, producing a game that is thriving domestically, is more financially stable than international rivals and (whatever we feel about potential missed opportunities) has been Ireland's most successful ever as an international side.

Yes, there's plenty to be done, but painting them as clueless old duffers who are making a balls of everything won't wash.

[Thomond78]

It's worth pointing out, btw, that if your minimum benchmark is not losing a proper test series in NZ, good luck. Only the Bokke, Crims and Lions have managed to win test series in NZ - and only the Crims have done it in the last forty years.

[The Outlaw]

Sigh.

No international conditioning coach can dictate the shape of the players coming out of sub-national teams unless he controls their pre-season. Simply: it takes more time than they get in the international windows to change the shape of players mid-season. It can be done in Wales, because the WRU is baas (and that had its own downside, because Gatland breaks players and the Welsh regions suffer as a result). The only way to have that control is to move the club/country balance in favour of the Irish team. That's been hinted at, recently. Except... That means curbing provincial power over the players and the conditioning regime in those provinces for game for which they are to play week in, week out, in favour of what's dictated centrally. So, we come back to: cui bono?

Moreover, I repeat: this is not new. If it's an issue, it was in the past, too. So, why now?

Because none of the top international sides have the same problem and we have returned from NZ where we got our arses handed to us. We had a crap international season in general and we need to be looking at anything that gives us a 1% edge.
I said co-ordinated policy- not having the provincial provinces doing there own solo runs. And we wonder why we cant beat Wales. In general they are better conditioned then our lads and the results back that up.

[The Outlaw]

I didn't say all right. But whatever criticism is to be levelled at the blazers has to acknowledge that they have overseen the most successful transition to professionalism in the northern hemisphere, producing a game that is thriving domestically, is more financially stable than international rivals and (whatever we feel about potential missed opportunities) has been Ireland's most successful ever as an international side.

Yes, there's plenty to be done, but painting them as clueless old duffers who are making a balls of everything won't wash.

That as little to do with them. The provinces themselves have marketed the game far beyond what the IRFU have ever done. We only have to look at the shambles that is the club game to look at the influence of the IRFU.

[The Outlaw]

It's worth pointing out, btw, that if your minimum benchmark is not losing a proper test series in NZ, good luck. Only the Bokke, Crims and Lions have managed to win test series in NZ - and only the Crims have done it in the last forty years.

My minumum benchmark is trying to beat the Home countries and the worst French team since the 40's. Something we patently failed to do last season.
Its absolute madness not to have a co-ordinated strength and conditioning policy across the provinces with someone overseeing it on a National Basis in a power sport.

[the plastic paddy]

It's worth pointing out, btw, that if your minimum benchmark is not losing a proper test series in NZ, good luck. Only the Bokke, Crims and Lions have managed to win test series in NZ - and only the Crims have done it in the last forty years.

And non of them look remotely capable of giving NZ a game home or away. I would bet that the Christchurch game will be the closest NZ get to losing this season. That said, the national team is underperforming relative to the provinces. Now some people might put that down to standards which I think is nonsense. Personally, I think the next Irish coach needs to be from overseas so he can be seen to be completely objective, whether this would lead to the blazers having less influence I don't know, if it was likely to I would think it probably wouldn't happen.

[Thomond78]

Because none of the top international sides have the same problem and we have returned from NZ where we got our arses handed to us. We had a crap international season in general and we need to be looking at anything that gives us a 1% edge.
I said co-ordinated policy- not having the provincial provinces doing there own solo runs. And we wonder why we cant beat Wales. In general they are better conditioned then our lads and the results back that up.

So, you want central control - because that's what that means. Which means, if you want to go down the Team Wales route, that the provinces are absolutely subservient to the national set-up. So, again: cui bono?

And btw: you appear to miss the point that everyone gets their arses handed to them in NZ. They have won 75% of all tests they've played, ever, home and away, with an average double score margin. In NZ, they've only lost 37 times in history, only once since 2002. You go to NZ, you get creamed. If you think two weeks with a conditioning coach at the end of a 50-week season would change that, you're kidding yourself.

[The Outlaw]

So, you want central control - because that's what that means. Which means, if you want to go down the Team Wales route, that the provinces are absolutely subservient to the national set-up. So, again: cui bono?

And btw: you appear to miss the point that everyone gets their arses handed to them in NZ. They have won 75% of all tests they've played, ever, home and away, with an average double score margin. In NZ, they've only lost 37 times in history, only once since 2002. You go to NZ, you get creamed. If you think two weeks with a conditioning coach at the end of a 50-week season would change that, you're kidding yourself.

At least I've been consistent on that. Provinces should be subservient to the National side- its bananas that they arent in my view.

Forget NZ lets talk about Wales. Stop changing the argument because the head coach is from Munster.

Are you saying that we have to accept losing to Wales on an annual basis because the National Side cant possibly be superior or be considered to be more important than the provinces?

[the plastic paddy]

At least I've been consistent on that. Provinces should be subservient to the National side- its bananas that they arent in my view.

Forget NZ lets talk about Wales. Stop changing the argument because the head coach is from Munster.

Are you saying that we have to accept losing to Wales on an annual basis because the National Side cant possibly be superior or be considered to be more important than the provinces?

The last three games have been lost to Wales, two of those losses could be attributed to terrible refereeing decisions and the RWC QF to the much greater intensity of game against Italy than the games of unopposed that Wales played. No one accepts the shocking performances in all three of those games but two of them could have been won in spite of terrible performances. I will accept that there is a profound problem in the national set up but it is not down to the conditioning of the players who, respectively, show themselves capable of beating Clermont in France in a HEC semi, putting 50 points on Northampton saints in England and obliterating the strongest team in England, OD's beloved Tigers, in Ravenhill. Failing to beat France was down to mental rather than physical frailty and Twickenham was down to not having a THP. The problem with the national side is not physical, it is mental.

[Thomond78]

At least I've been consistent on that. Provinces should be subservient to the National side- its bananas that they arent in my view.

Forget NZ lets talk about Wales. Stop changing the argument because the head coach is from Munster.

Are you saying that we have to accept losing to Wales on an annual basis because the National Side cant possibly be superior or be considered to be more important than the provinces?

Consistent, my pink bits. Your previous refrain was "we don't have the players, regardless". Now it's, "we do have the players if they spend two weeks mid-season with a different conditioning coach" (all about the training, eh? JCC will be happy...). Which is nonsense: you don't make gains mid-season.

And to cover this up, you now change it from, "Oh, we need it now because we lost in NZ" - because that's been shown up - to "But it's all about the scandal that we didn't beat Wales" - the same team you were holding up as exemplars back in the 6N. We know you're a one-note miserabilist who can't admit anything is ever okay because it's spoil the Eeyore act; but stop moving the goalposts. Hell, let the damn things touch the ground every once in a while.

[i_like_cake]

Interesting.

"......... On the eve of internationals, Declan Kidney regularly has to present his plans for the next day to the National Team Review Group. This is a five-man posse -- Philip Browne usually bows out to leave it at four -- where Pa Whelan and Tom Grace lead the charge. If this were the mid-1970s, their input might be useful. Instead they are at the core of an organisation that excels at managing money but consistently cocks up the development of the game. "


http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugb...a-3203583.html

So the rumour I heard about Kidney wanting to bring Madigan to NZ, but was told he couldn't - as he already had 2 centrally contracted outhalves - could have been true....

ohh sharkfarts....

[The Outlaw]

Consistent, my pink bits. Your previous refrain was "we don't have the players, regardless". Now it's, "we do have the players if they spend two weeks mid-season with a different conditioning coach" (all about the training, eh? JCC will be happy...). Which is nonsense: you don't make gains mid-season.

And to cover this up, you now change it from, "Oh, we need it now because we lost in NZ" - because that's been shown up - to "But it's all about the scandal that we didn't beat Wales" - the same team you were holding up as exemplars back in the 6N. We know you're a one-note miserabilist who can't admit anything is ever okay because it's spoil the Eeyore act; but stop moving the goalposts. Hell, let the damn things touch the ground every once in a while.

And we all know you're a one-eyed cyclops when it comes to our head coach and his win loss ratio in the last 15 months. The facts speak for themselves.

Who said anything about having a different conditioning coach. Who co-ordinates the provincial strength and conditoning programmes on a National basis? In other top nations its the national strength and conditioning coach. In Ireland we do different because we're so good.

Oh thats right we're not all that good

[Munsterboy]

At least I've been consistent on that. Provinces should be subservient to the National side- its bananas that they arent in my view.

Forget NZ lets talk about Wales. Stop changing the argument because the head coach is from Munster.

Are you saying that we have to accept losing to Wales on an annual basis because the National Side cant possibly be superior or be considered to be more important than the provinces?

Let's talk about the other side of Welsh rugby too then. Their regions have struggled and will continue to do so both on and off the field. The Ospreys look like they might be getting their **** together but none of them have come close to challenging for a HEC and their attendances are piss poor. That's the flip side.

They are punching somewhat above their weight internationally but they've only been a few points and/or a dodgy decision better than us in our recent encounters. It's not like they're leaving us miles behind. It also helps that they have recently uncovered a crop of enormous and talented young backs while many of ours are pretty much coming to the end of their careers. Much as you would like to blame the IRFU, the coaching, the systems etc. etc. a lot of this stuff is simply down to one thing: the players available to either team at any one time.

I think the IRFU have their limitations, as do the coaching staff. However, if you genuinely think changing those two set-ups will suddenly make Ireland world beaters you are delusional. With Joe Scmidt at the helm and the WRU running things behind the scenes, we still would have had our arses handed to us in NZ. Why? Because Ireland cannot go down there at the end of a marathon season without POC, Fitz, Bowe and Ferris and hope to have a chance in hell of winning.

[the plastic paddy]

Let's talk about the other side of Welsh rugby too then. Their regions have struggled and will continue to do so both on and off the field. The Ospreys look like they might be getting their **** together but none of them have come close to challenging for a HEC and their attendances are piss poor. That's the flip side.

They are punching somewhat above their weight internationally but they've only been a few points and/or a dodgy decision better than us in our recent encounters. It's not like they're leaving us miles behind. It also helps that they have recently uncovered a crop of enormous and talented young backs while many of ours are pretty much coming to the end of their careers. Much as you would like to blame the IRFU, the coaching, the systems etc. etc. a lot of this stuff is simply down to one thing: the players available to either team at any one time.

I think the IRFU have their limitations, as do the coaching staff. However, if you genuinely think changing those two set-ups will suddenly make Ireland world beaters you are delusional. With Joe Scmidt at the helm and the WRU running things behind the scenes, we still would have had our arses handed to us in NZ. Why? Because Ireland cannot go down there at the end of a marathon season without POC, Fitz, Bowe and Ferris and hope to have a chance in hell of winning.

The incredible thing is that in the second test we very nearly did. Excellent post Munsterboy!!!

[redherring]

I think the end of Fanning's article was the point really to be taken on board and it's that the economics of it will always win out over the progression or the future of the game in Ireland and the way it's moving. It was long said the the IRFU always targetted doing well in the 5N/6N and anything else i.e. summer tests and RWC was a bonus. It has been a poor run since winning the GS but the clubs/provincial scene is exactly where the IRFU want to be. All Ireland HC final, 50,000 people goin to watch Leinster vs Munster in Dublin etc. etc. Making money is their objective and that's the main goal. Don't be suprised in five to ten years if this argument is still ringing around. The Tommy Kiernans, Noel Murphys and Pa Whelans of the Irish rugby fraternity will always hold the power and sway. The only hope is a new generation might someday change the ethos and thinking within the IRFU.

[Mcork]

Thought of starting a new thread for this but I think it sort of fits well on this one.

Should the IRFU strive to have NZ'ers in charge at each of our professional sides (4 provinces & INTL team)? I have been almost shocked at the difference in the level of Munster's play this season under Penney. OK, everything is not perfect yet but there is a purpose and invention to our play which is light years ahead of what was there even during the sucessful era under Kidney, not to mention the McGahan years. And this after only 3 competitive games. How is that possible? However more than that is the individual skills of the players. To see Donnacha O'Callaghan fix and give ball like a young Ali Williams in midfield, you've got to ask, what our coaches were doing before that when the same player would flop to the ground given the ball this time last year. That is just 1 incident but the skill levels of our players have been transformed literally all over the park.

Why did D. Humphreys ditch Brian McLaughlin for M. Anscombe despite the fact that the former made a HEC final? "to bring Ulster on to the next level" Did DH recognise that the game had moved on and Brian didn't have the needed knowledge & skills- now that is begining to look like a great decision!!. We've all seen what has happened with an already good Leinster side since Joe Schmidt has taken over. Domination at HEC level and great rugby to watch.

We've always heard that NZ players are on a different planet - and it certainly seems that way when we play against them at INTL level. They don't stand out nearly as much when they come to the NH when they are crucially exposed to the same gameplan and coaching as our guys & NH players in general. They are still good players but there is not the gulf in ability that appears when they pull on an INTL shirt. Wales currently the best NH INTL side coached by?? you guessed it a NZ'er.

Could the real difference be the coaching? Irish coaches and most of our NH counterparts are light light years behind where the top level of the game is being played. I think it's time we acknowledged this and put NZ'ers in charge of all 5 teams here. Kidney was a great coach and man manager but he's stuck in the way the game was played 5 years ago. He just hasn't kept pace with changes in the game.

With Kidney to leave after 6n's, Joe Schmidt should rightly be given 1st refusal (with Johno Gibbs given the head job at Leinster for continuity). If he doesn't accept, let's keep an eye on Oz and Robbie Deans who might be looking for a shot at redemption. That would leave Elwood. A decent man and a Connacht legend but a man brought up in the ways of Irish coaching i.e. totally behind the times. get a young hungry NZ coach in there with a reputation for developping young players.

4 NZ coached provinces feeding into a NZ coached INTL team. You just get the feeling it would succeed at all levels. There is no shame in admitting in terms of 'intellectual property', their coaches are just light years ahead of ours. Keep prospective Irish coaches involved (a la Foley with Munster) so that they will assimilate the learnings and take over in the future.

[Old Dog]

One observation/rhetorical question that comes to mind from Mcork's post (with which I concur).

Might the factors that he lists help to explain why Eddie O'Sullivan is still looking for employment?

And, a corollary, will Kidney be in the same position as Cooder in 12/24/36 months' time?

[NotreDameRFC]

One observation/rhetorical question that comes to mind from Mcork's post (with which I concur).

Might the factors that he lists help to explain why Eddie O'Sullivan is still looking for employment?

And, a corollary, will Kidney be in the same position as Cooder in 12/24/36 months' time?

true.....but just out of interest...and i haven't genuinely thought about this...how many native coaches from Gb and Ireland have gone on to better or continued success ?

or is it an Irish thing?

[rathbaner]

[QUOTE=Mcork;1110380]Could the real difference be the coaching? /QUOTE]

Could it be that simple?

[The Outlaw]

One observation/rhetorical question that comes to mind from Mcork's post (with which I concur).

Might the factors that he lists help to explain why Eddie O'Sullivan is still looking for employment?

And, a corollary, will Kidney be in the same position as Cooder in 12/24/36 months' time?

We are at a funny juncture.

a lot of Leinster's backroom team are now working for the IRFU.

Yet it looks unlikely that Schimdt will take the gig.

So if the change did occur next year we are likely to be looking outside Ireland.

[sewa]

Dingo Deans for Leinster, my campaign starts now! Who is with me?