IRFU out of sync with the demands of the modern game

[Mcork]

[QUOTE=rathbaner;1110396]

Could the real difference be the coaching? /QUOTE]

Could it be that simple?

look at the change Penney has made at Munster. The skill levels of the players are already 20 -30% ahead of where they were last year. The team looks like it can score tries from everywhere. It's not just Irish coaches by the way. French, indiginous Welsh, English. We're all way behind NZ in terms of coaching. There seems to be a surplus of coaching talent in NZ at the moment. We are already taking advantage but at least in INTL terms not where it counts.

[NotreDameRFC]

Dingo Deans for Leinster, my campaign starts now! Who is with me?

5 super rugby titles...be careful what you wish for...

[sewa]

5 super rugby titles...be careful what you wish for...

I can use the same type of argument to back a contract extension for DK

[Mcork]

One observation/rhetorical question that comes to mind from Mcork's post (with which I concur).

Might the factors that he lists help to explain why Eddie O'Sullivan is still looking for employment?

And, a corollary, will Kidney be in the same position as Cooder in 12/24/36 months' time?

Could be wrong but i wouldn't be surprised if kidney didn't seek another another head coach role after this. There seems to be some doubt about whether he'd give up living in cork (and who would blame him) which would really narrow his options to 1. He can take a lot of credit for building Munster rugby to where it is today. The periods of stagnation have coincided with the reigns of Gaffney &mcgahan - kidney has always taken us forward. Things haven't worked out for him with Ireland (post GS09). He'll always have his achievements. achievements which EO'S never had so i'm sure English and Welsh clubs will enquire but i suspect Deccie will not be interested for the reasons stated before.

[Old Dog]

On the subject of coaching - although at a bit of a tangent to this thread - it's interesting to note that Sean Edwards, the legendary London Wasps and Wales defence coach, [once described by Matt Dawson as "the best coach in the world"], is now filling that role at London Irish who have conceded 123 points in their 3 APL games this season and proudly occupy the bottom slot of the APL table! (We should probably discuss that on the APL thread.)

[NotreDameRFC]

I can use the same type of argument to back a contract extension for DK

that's valid if their cv's are comparable.

[jeepers]

Kiwi coaches are the new black (pardon the pun). We've just been through our Aussie phase (Matty, Gaffney, Ella, Cheika, McGahan, Knox, Jim Williams, Santa Claus etc). There is every chance that the IRFU have made a strong suggestion that the coach of choice for the provinces is Kiwi.

[BOK]

New Zealand IS rugby. They are the benchmark and every single kiwi involved in the game there just has a natural understanding of how the game should be played in much the same way as we do hurling. What's more they have that winning mentality that is quite frankly priceless. If you want to learn a game then the logical thing to do is to learn from the best. They are the best. Joe went to Leinster and we all see what he has done there. Penney and Anscombe have come, and while it's early days, the initial signs are that they are in the process of doing, what to us might be special, but to them is just simply rugby. Also take note that these are 3 Kiwi coaches that the NZ rugby union were not fighting to hold on to.

Rugby has changed in the last few years to favour NZ's natural way of playing even more, which is why they seem to be getting better and better. Yes Wales have a particularly strong batch of youngsters coming through but dont for a second underestimate the influence of Gatland, another Kiwi.

I dont for a second buy that we dont have the resources in player numbers or quality to compete with the likes of Wales or France. 5 HC's in 7 years is proof that we have the talent to compete with them. Yes the imports have been hugely influential but where one Province might be light on homegrown players or players of a high enough quality another Province makes up for it. We HAVE the players to make a serious team, no if's or buts about it. What we dont have is a head coach with the natural understanding of the modern game or the winning mentality. Kidney was successful at Munster but the game is chalk and cheese now from what it was then.

A non-Irish coach is what we need and preferably a Kiwi one and even more preferably a kiwi one who has had no work done in any of the provinces. A outsider who can come in and gel the evident talent we have together without any Provincial bias, either perceived or not. Schmidt is an outstanding coach but if he were to take the job, after the honeymoon period wears off, the exact same perceived bias that many people have about Kidney towards Munster would happen with him and Leinster. We dont need that. We will never be serious contenders under Kidney or any coach who has a connection with any one of the provinces.

We have learnt, at provincial level, that if we want to be the best we have to learn from the best. It's about time the suits opened their eyes and realize that it's the only way we will be successful at Intnl level aswell.

[99_oK?]

I find OD's original post astonishing. This is still going on?

As regards the clash between provincial and national interests, yes there always will be 2 sometimes opposing sets of priorities, but given the setup and how both national team and our provincial sides have fared in recent years, I'd say we're not too far away from the ideal. OK, a national conditioning coach would seem to be a given, but I'm not saying it's perfect.

And if we are to follow Wales as the perfect example, then we'll say goodbye to success at provincial level methinks. But then (as someone pointed out..), 2 of those recent wins were more to do with the officials cocking up big-time.

With Penney promising great stuff to come here, and Kidney now a proven shrewd head, are we not jumping the gun a bit here? i.e. is this just sh*t-stirring for the sake of it, or to sell papers......?

[jeepers]

BOK, it would be difficult enough to find a coach for Ireland, without having to worry about selecting the right one for the fans. Most coaches only care about winning and their own reputation. They might make selections that supporters don't like, but they are not making them because they come from a partcularly favoured province.

The provincial coaches that come in have had 8 weeks of daily contact with their players and most people say they should be given a season or two to get the hang of things. What do people think a coach can do coming in cold from the SH and getting the players for a week or two have to face into a Test match?

The fans need to grow up about this provincial bias thing (not that the IRFU would entertain it anyway).

Edit: I wonder would Dingo favour the players coached by the Canterbury coach or the ones coached by the Auckland coaches!

[BOK]

BOK, it would be difficult enough to find a coach for Ireland, without having to worry about selecting the right one for the fans. Most coaches only care about winning and their own reputation. They might make selections that supporters don't like, but they are not making them because they come from a partcularly favoured province.

The provincial coaches that come in have had 8 weeks of daily contact with their players and most people say they should be given a season or two to get the hang of things. What do people think a coach can do coming in cold from the SH and getting the players for a week or two have to face into a Test match?

The fans need to grow up about this provincial bias thing (not that the IRFU would entertain it anyway).

Edit: I wonder would Dingo favour the players coached by the Canterbury coach or the ones coached by the Auckland coaches!

I'm not so much talking about the fans but more so the players themselves. Whether we care to admit it or not and however childish it might seem, the provincial thing has and in my view continues to be a problem. We have all heard the stories about that talk before the GS and Rob K talking about how the Leinster players felt the Munster players cared more for the red jersey than the green etc etc.. The provincial loyalty amongst fans and players here is immensely strong even compared to NZ and the likes. Us Irish are very parochial. It was a problem a few years ago and I doubt it is one that has truly gone away. I'm not saying for a second that Kidney is bias in any of his selections but because he is a Munster man and a former Munster coach, twice, than it is quite possible that it could be perceived as such.

Christ you had ROG coming out only last season saying how he is a Munster rugby player first and foremost. There has been rumblings of late how the Leinster players arn't happy with Kidney. Well so long as they are being referred to as the Leinster players or the Munster players while on International duty then it is quite obvious to me that the problem is still there. They should be nothing but Irish when on Irish duty. As long as the head coach has a strong connection with one province in particular then there is always the risk it will resurface. It might be childish but it cannot be ignored cause it is there.

[jeepers]

Originally Posted by BOK

I'm so much talking about the fans but more so the players themselves. Whether we care to admit it or not and however childish it might seem, the provincial thing has and in my view continues to be a problem. We have all heard the stories about that talk before the GS and Rob K talking about how the Leinster players felt the Munster players cared more for the red jersey than the green etc etc..

I think some people misinterpret what Kearney said:

And it was at that moment Rob Kearney knew he had to speak.
So he got to his feet and explained himself. Said that he sometimes envied the Munster players for the passion they could engender in a Thomond crowd. He talked of being in awe of the intensity that a second-string team in red had managed to summon against the All Blacks. “I just think we need to tap into that spirit more,” he said. And he sat back down.

No need for any Leinster player to envy Munster now - and I doubt if any Munster player envies Leinster - they know what it takes. From what I can see, the players get on very well together and a lot of that is due to the environment that Kidney has created in the Ireland camp. Deep down, any Leinster player who thinks they are not being selected for Ireland because they are from Leinster need to have a look at themselves first of all.

Secondly, with Ireland rugby team effectively 2 countries put together its going to be difficult to unite "Four Proud Provinces" who are generally competing against each other and now have to compete with a meaningless anthem and a meaningless flag to try and unite the team and supporters. No other team in the world has to compete where the anthem/flag of one group of players is despises by the supporters of another. Its a miracle, considering the history of the island, that they are actually at the same match, let alone supporting the same team!

The provincial loyalty amongst fans and players here is immensely strong even compared to NZ and the likes. Us Irish are very parochial. It was a problem a few years ago and I doubt it is one that has truly gone away. I'm not saying for a second that Kidney is bias in any of his selections but because he is a Munster man and a former Munster coach, twice, than it is quite possible that it could be perceived as such.

Christ you had ROG coming out only last season saying how he is a Munster rugby player first and foremost. There has been rumblings of late how the Leinster players arn't happy with Kidney. Well so long as they are being referred to as the Leinster players or the Munster players while on International duty then it is quite obvious to me that the problem is still there. They should be nothing but Irish when on Irish duty. As long as the head coach has a strong connection with one province in particular then there is always the risk it will resurface. It might be childish but it cannot be ignored cause it is there.

Even Henry Sheflin with his 8 All-Ireland's will say that winning stuff with the lads he grew up in school and his local club above all else means more to him than anything else. I've heard Leinster lads saying that the highlight of their rugby careers was winning a Schools Cup. Nothing unusual in remembering where you came from. BOD expressed great regret that Denis Hickey & a few others wasn't around to share his GS & HCup - i.e., the people he worked with every day.

When you think of it, its a pity Rory McIlroy wouldn't adopt a similar attitude when deciding who he wants to represent in the next Olympics.

[Dowlinz]

Coaching does seem to be the be all and end all, too early to say if the NZ project has been a complete success but it's certainly heading strongly in that direction.
On the contrary we have the majority of our soccer team being coached and developed by clubs in a caveman kick and chase league and we continue to blame successive coaches for why our players can't string a pass together. It's a fantastic thing that in Rugby we have the power to fix that problem and get the men from the countries in the know in charge of our players.

[BOK]

I think some people misinterpret what Kearney said:



No need for any Leinster player to envy Munster now - and I doubt if any Munster player envies Leinster - they know what it takes. From what I can see, the players get on very well together and a lot of that is due to the environment that Kidney has created in the Ireland camp. Deep down, any Leinster player who thinks they are not being selected for Ireland because they are from Leinster need to have a look at themselves first of all.

Secondly, with Ireland rugby team effectively 2 countries put together its going to be difficult to unite "Four Proud Provinces" who are generally competing against each other and now have to compete with a meaningless anthem and a meaningless flag to try and unite the team and supporters. No other team in the world has to compete where the anthem/flag of one group of players is despises by the supporters of another. Its a miracle, considering the history of the island, that they are actually at the same match, let alone supporting the same team!



Even Henry Sheflin with his 8 All-Ireland's will say that winning stuff with the lads he grew up in school and his local club above all else means more to him than anything else. I've heard Leinster lads saying that the highlight of their rugby careers was winning a Schools Cup. Nothing unusual in remembering where you came from. BOD expressed great regret that Denis Hickey & a few others wasn't around to share his GS & HCup - i.e., the people he worked with every day.

When you think of it, its a pity Rory McIlroy wouldn't adopt a similar attitude when deciding who he wants to represent in the next Olympics.

I think it would be perfectly natural for the Munster and indeed Ulster players to be envious of Leinster at the moment.

You make two very good points though.
Firstly on the fact that the Irish team is effectively a representative side made up of two countries and as a result maybe they cant or feel they shouldn't tap into the whole pride factor as much as perhaps they could or indeed do for their Provinces. Maybe it doesn't play that much of a factor but it could be a small thing.

Secondly you are bang on regards the local club and players other players have grown up with. The fact is when the likes of BOD, ROG, Paulie etc etc... retire and look back on their careers, the vast majority of their success and therefor happy memories are going to revolve around the Provinces and not the National side. Despite the GS there is going to be many feelings of missed opportunities and negative experiences associated with the green jersey for them. It is little wonder really why many of them would feel more attached and loyal to their Provincial team than their National team. Sexton saying, I think after the last 6N, how he couldn't wait to get back to Leinster and away from the Irish set-up, summed it all up really.

Until these players can start achieving consistent success in the green jersey and as a result start creating positive memories with their team mates from every province in the one jersey then they are going to continually maintain that provincial tie in the Irish camp cause it's natural when things go sour that we all start reliving and start feeding off past positive memories.

I still think a completely neutral head coach is the best way to go about achieving this though and preferably a Kiwi one.

[sewa]

that's valid if their cv's are comparable.

Correct Dingos CV doesn't come close, bar a short trip to a Leinster side in full on ladyboy lazy mode Kidneys is flawless up to a year ago

[Cowboy]

Offer Joe more money and ask him to coach the backs/attack for the 6nations only, allowing him to maintain his Leinster role and not impeding anyone ?

As has been discussed here many times the Ladyplan for rugby domination is rooted in simple effective winning rugby, transfer that simplicity to the Irish setup and get Kiss back to implementing Rugby League rush defence.

We're burning the candle at both ends as things stand. Kidney, for all his perceived conservatism has still got a team in transition, once it settles down he'll have a stronger deck to pick from.

[NotreDameRFC]

Correct Dingos CV doesn't come close, bar a short trip to a Leinster side in full on ladyboy lazy mode Kidneys is flawless up to a year ago

Just i want to be sure i have this right....we are happy with a kiwi manager who hadn't made the grade( yet ) at super rugby....and you want to land Leinster with the best super rugby manager of all time? who even won a tri nations with worst aussie team
in a generation.....

we hired penney on strength of npc. success whilst that's just a footnote on dingos cv

that's what your saying seamus?

[jeepers]

I think it would be perfectly natural for the Munster and indeed Ulster players to be envious of Leinster at the moment.

You make two very good points though.
Firstly on the fact that the Irish team is effectively a representative side made up of two countries and as a result maybe they cant or feel they shouldn't tap into the whole pride factor as much as perhaps they could or indeed do for their Provinces. Maybe it doesn't play that much of a factor but it could be a small thing.

I think it is a big thing to deal with. The one thing that can get the blood boiling (playing for your people) is actively discouraged. They are uncomfortable about showing pride in who they are representing. That is something they don't have to be embarrassed about when they play for their province. Lining out for the anthem does mean a lot to the players.

Secondly you are bang on regards the local club and players other players have grown up with. The fact is when the likes of BOD, ROG, Paulie etc etc... retire and look back on their careers, the vast majority of their success and therefor happy memories are going to revolve around the Provinces and not the National side. Despite the GS there is going to be many feelings of missed opportunities and negative experiences associated with the green jersey for them. It is little wonder really why many of them would feel more attached and loyal to their Provincial team than their National team. Sexton saying, I think after the last 6N, how he couldn't wait to get back to Leinster and away from the Irish set-up, summed it all up really.

I think most of them will be very happy with their international careers and a win over the ABs is about all that they have left to do. Playing international rugby is probably all right for a young 23/23 year old, but for the older lads who have settled down and with kids, it must be hard going to be living out of a suitcase for months on end hardly seeing your family.

Worth reading Alan Quinlan's blog on being an international and how players feel out of their comfort zone. Sexton hasn't performed well for Ireland and has won nothing with them - of course he is going to be envious of ROG and anyone else who has won a few things (don't think he has even won a Triple Crown). Maybe Sexton doesn't get on very well with the rest of the lads or he doesn't like being away from home for long periods, but that is up to him to deal with. You can imagine how difficult it must be for the like of ROG, who has been doing it for years now.

Until these players can start achieving consistent success in the green jersey and as a result start creating positive memories with their team mates from every province in the one jersey then they are going to continually maintain that provincial tie in the Irish camp cause it's natural when things go sour that we all start reliving and start feeding off past positive memories.

I still think a completely neutral head coach is the best way to go about achieving this though and preferably a Kiwi one.

And what if they don't achieve instant* success with a new 'neutral' coach - who do you blame then?

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens in the AIs now that Ireland have 3 coaches at club level with a similar style, though (from evidence so far, Penney has the edge on coaching the breakdown) and most the Ireland forwards are in Leinster.

*they won't achieve instant success with a new coach. It will take at least 2 years to implement yet a new style.

[sewa]

Just i want to be sure i have this right....we are happy with a kiwi manager who hadn't made the grade( yet ) at super rugby....and you want to land Leinster with the best super rugby manager of all time? who even won a tri nations with worst aussie team
in a generation.....

we hired penney on strength of npc. success whilst that's just a footnote on dingos cv

that's what your saying seamus?

That was a fine Aussie team until he turned it into the crap we see today, I actually would go so far as to say they'd struggle to beat Ireland

[NotreDameRFC]

That was a fine Aussie team until he turned it into the crap we see today, I actually would go so far as to say they'd struggle to beat Ireland

I'll agree with you on us beating them.....i just think they've been crap for quite a while.

[the plastic paddy]

I'll agree with you on us beating them.....i just think they've been crap for quite a while.

In last season's tri nations they were made to look good because NZ couldn't give a flying feck about that tournament as their priority was obviously the RWC. Personally I think NZ are miles ahead of everyone else but there is very little between SA, Aus, Ireland, Wales, England, Argentina and France. NZ were rubbish on saturday and, for all the saffers missed kicks, NZ still won with their heads in their chests.

[NotreDameRFC]

In last season's tri nations they were made to look good because NZ couldn't give a flying feck about that tournament as their priority was obviously the RWC. Personally I think NZ are miles ahead of everyone else but there is very little between SA, Aus, Ireland, Wales, England, Argentina and France. NZ were rubbish on saturday and, for all the saffers missed kicks, NZ still won with their heads in their chests.

I agree paddy ..i think there's not a whole lot between the teams you mentioned bar NZ.

Re Australia ...i still believe its the worst collection of aussie players in a generation.Players like mc cabe, Dennis, kepu , shipperly , both faingaa brothers, samo ....would not have got near previous aussie squads..

losing players like mortlock etc have not been replaced with similar quality. And it shows it super rugby...aussie teams usually make up 3 of the bottom 4/5.

[BOK]

And what if they don't achieve instant* success with a new 'neutral' coach - who do you blame then?

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens in the AIs now that Ireland have 3 coaches at club level with a similar style, though (from evidence so far, Penney has the edge on coaching the breakdown) and most the Ireland forwards are in Leinster.

*they won't achieve instant success with a new coach. It will take at least 2 years to implement yet a new style.

I never said anything about instant success, all I said was consistent success. It's like the same scenario we find ourselves in here at Munster. If a new coach were to take up the Ireland role, most people would be more than happy to be patient if he was trying to implement a new more positive style, much the same as what Penney is doing for us.

The problem is, like Mcgahan with Munster, people are starting to get impatient with Kidney. I'm not saying it's right or wrong but it is what's happening. I reckon it will only get worse for him aswell as Munster and Ulster start improving and playing a more attractive brand of rugby along with what Leinster are already doing. If he cant translate that onto the national team then it is very hard to see how he could be retained. But then again Munster offered Mcgahan a new 2 year contract so anything is possible I suppose. (christ we really dogged a bullet there!!)

[lahinch_lass]

Interesting reaction to the change in certain munster players .. the donncha O'Callaghan example in particular is one that stands out particularly if you've read his autobiography ... He recounted one incident when EOS was in charge of Ireland where he got ripped to shreds by EOS for doing what Penny is so obviously encouraging ALL the players to do now. It's little tid-bits like that in DOc's Biog and some other books that I suspect have a large part to play in why EOS is still job-hunting. He'd be great for a developing nation where the players just don't have the experience & need the guidance of an exact playbook, but his attitude goes nowhere in the top nations where players have the experience.
Deccie's success/failure is far more predicated on the mental game & the ability of his support staff for the actual coaching. and for better or worse where the IRFU are involved he doesn't get a massive amount of say in the selection of his support staff.

[Mcork]

I agree paddy ..i think there's not a whole lot between the teams you mentioned bar NZ.

Re Australia ...i still believe its the worst collection of aussie players in a generation.Players like mc cabe, Dennis, kepu , shipperly , both faingaa brothers, samo ....would not have got near previous aussie squads..

losing players like mortlock etc have not been replaced with similar quality. And it shows it super rugby...aussie teams usually make up 3 of the bottom 4/5.

Agree, this is a very underwhelming generation of Aussie players. Some good players but apart from Pocock, nobody really stands out as definetly best in the world. I would easily put us on a par with them in terms of playing talent. If we'd the results this Aussie side has achieved, we'd all be calling this a golden period for Irish rugby. We may have beaten them at the RWC but they still made the semi and won 3rd place. they've also beaten Wales the last 4 times they've played. What we'd give for results like that!

If Deans was available, we'd be wise to at least enquire about his intentions.

[Mcork]

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens in the AIs now that Ireland have 3 coaches at club level with a similar style, though (from evidence so far, Penney has the edge on coaching the breakdown) and most the Ireland forwards are in Leinster.

*they won't achieve instant success with a new coach. It will take at least 2 years to implement yet a new style.

Nice idea but I'm not sure that Kidney knows how to play the way Leinster have been playing for the last 2 years and now Munster & Ulster are striving for. Remember Kidney has had significant success playing a far differnt style of rugby. Munster didn't win plaudits for style when they won the HEC in 06 & 08. Neitehr IRL in 09. Those sucesses were built on strong forward pack, kicking flyhalfs and low risk rugby. No criticism there - it was the right style for the players we had and rugby at that time. The game has since evolved immensely. Does Kidney know how to set up a team to play the way Penney has got the Munster lads playing. there is a good chance he wouldn't have a clue and it would go against everything he has learnt. Can he depend on his coaching staff? Smal another coach with success built on the twin fundamentals of a brutal forward pack and a kicking outhalf (Jake White's springboks). Less Kiss (a rugby league coach), forget about it. The way Penney & Schmidt have their teams playing is probably totally alien to all of them.

The Irish team still kicks far too much but what's more, it kicks badly because that is not the way the players are playing at club level. If Kidney has any chance of turning it around, he needs to recruit an attacks/backs coach who can translate what the players are doing at club level on to the INTL side. A lot of pundits pushing for Joe Schmidt to be given that role. But that supposes he would take it if offered. If he wants the full job, he'd be far better off declining & waiting for the wheels to come off in the 6n's which would clear the way. If he comes on as backs coach, this would undermine Kidney in my opinion. Schmidt would pretty much take responsibility for the coaching, tactics and gameplan leaving Kidney in a more managerial type role. The questions would ultimately surround what Kidney's role was. Schmidt would probably not put himself in that situation. Ironically if he has no interest in the Irish job and plans to go back to NZ in a year or 2, he might consider it. Probably not going to happen though.

[HenryFitz]

Interview in the Independent with inveterate committee chairman Martin O'Sullivan.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugb...-29349573.html

[dropkick]

Interview in the Independent with inveterate committee chairman Martin O'Sullivan.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugb...-29349573.html

Letting Sexton go was a good bit of business as they have a ready made replacement and Ireland have an extra option.