Leaving Cert/CAO and Proj Maths

[99_oK?]

I see our esteemed Minister for Education (aka dumb-it-down, pile-em-in Quinn) has hailed our 'new' Project Maths a great success. Yeah, the 23 (24-1) Project schools have again received better marks than normal schools, but what else would you expect? This is one of Ruairí's pet projects and one he gets the main aim nothing else matters. And so this is his magic pill to reverse our rapidly decling standards in Maths, Engineering and Science, so is half implemented in mainstream schools (due to be completely rolled out by 2014).

He managed to get 22% (13,000) of LC students sit the exam this year; Bravo Ruairí...!

Main aim of Project Maths being to increase the numbers taking higher level maths. So he trims off a few of the more challenging (& useful if you're doing Eng, Science or IT) bits (linear algebra) first, then makes the other very useful bit (calculus) less in-depth or challenging too. Adds in a few snazzy bits of geometry (drawings, etc), and swaps the usual statistical and business bits for more obscure bits..... Oh, and adds in a bit of probability (this is Leaving Cert HL...) that most other countries do at primary level (great to know that tossing a coin and pulling a card from a deck are 'independent' of each other...). Not much use if you've to calculate the stresses in a engineering project or work out a 5 or 6 way multivariable function - i.e. real science issues that everyone has to study at 3rd level.

Oh, nearly forgot to mention that the marking process is now an iterative process; first run is going to be marked up when the 'results don't hit targets...'. i.e. like the creche sports day, everyone's a winner....!

But what use in the real world is little Joe or Josephine getting an A in virtually nothing (Higher level of course...).

Yep, we've trimmed it off, dumbed it down and now everyone will get 600 points (+ of course 25 extra for asking for the nicer coloured paper back in June.....).

Previous to this only about 15% of LC students would have studied Maths at a sufficiently high or detailed level to tackle Engineering, IT, Science (or Maths...). Now we will increase the number taking HL to 25%, but unfortunately we'll have nobody ready to tackle Engineering, IT, Science (or Maths...), Actuarial, Economic Modelling, etc, etc. The new curriculum is way off the standard needed going into 3rd level - that's just the reality. UL are planning extra Maths lectures and tutorials for 1st years to get round this major issue.

Now Ruairí has gone an buried the report on PM under the (hollow...) boast about how many have actually passed Higher Level Maths this year.

No good Ruairí having someone who can jog a 10k in an hour when we're looking for lads/lassies who can hit it in under half an hour (- that's Euro standards; 27 mins is World Standard....).

-------------------------------------------------------------

This is the damning report: http://media.tcm.ie/media/documents/...ulumReport.pdf

Pages 1 & 9 are particularly important/relevant if you're stuck for time.

[Old Dog]

I see our esteemed Minister for Education (aka dumb-it-down, pile-em-in Quinn) has hailed our 'new' Project Maths a great success. Yeah, the 23 (24-1) Project schools have again received better marks than normal schools, but what else would you expect? This is one of Ruairí's pet projects and one he gets the main aim nothing else matters. And so this is his magic pill to reverse our rapidly decling standards in Maths, Engineering and Science, so is half implemented in mainstream schools (due to be completely rolled out by 2014).

He managed to get 22% (13,000) of LC students sit the exam this year; Bravo Ruairí...!

Main aim of Project Maths being to increase the numbers taking higher level maths. So he trims off a few of the more challenging (& useful if you're doing Eng, Science or IT) bits (linear algebra) first, then makes the other very useful bit (calculus) less in-depth or challenging too. Adds in a few snazzy bits of geometry (drawings, etc), and swaps the usual statistical and business bits for more obscure bits..... Oh, and adds in a bit of probability (this is Leaving Cert HL...) that most other countries do at primary level (great to know that tossing a coin and pulling a card from a deck are 'independent' of each other...). Not much use if you've to calculate the stresses in a engineering project or work out a 5 or 6 way multivariable function - i.e. real science issues that everyone has to study at 3rd level.

Oh, nearly forgot to mention that the marking process is now an iterative process; first run is going to be marked up when the 'results don't hit targets...'. i.e. like the creche sports day, everyone's a winner....!

But what use in the real world is little Joe or Josephine getting an A in virtually nothing (Higher level of course...).

Yep, we've trimmed it off, dumbed it down and now everyone will get 600 points (+ of course 25 extra for asking for the nicer coloured paper back in June.....).

Previous to this only about 15% of LC students would have studied Maths at a sufficiently high or detailed level to tackle Engineering, IT, Science (or Maths...). Now we will increase the number taking HL to 25%, but unfortunately we'll have nobody ready to tackle Engineering, IT, Science (or Maths...), Actuarial, Economic Modelling, etc, etc. The new curriculum is way off the standard needed going into 3rd level - that's just the reality. UL are planning extra Maths lectures and tutorials for 1st years to get round this major issue.

Now Ruairí has gone an buried the report on PM under the (hollow...) boast about how many have actually passed Higher Level Maths this year.

No good Ruairí having someone who can jog a 10k in an hour when we're looking for lads/lassies who can hit it in under half an hour (- that's Euro standards; 27 mins is World Standard....).

-------------------------------------------------------------

This is the damning report: http://media.tcm.ie/media/documents/...ulumReport.pdf

Pages 1 & 9 are particularly important/relevant if you're stuck for time.

Emmm ... but wasn't Project Maths introduced by a previous Minister for Education, back in 2008?

The Minister in question was, if my memory serves me well, an intellectual powerhouse by the name of Batt O'Keeffe.

[Piquet]

They seem not to understand the problem. What is needed is better Maths students, ones that will be able to hack it in the technical subjects at Third Level. What is not needed is more people doing an Honours Maths that leaves them inadequately equipped to tackle these subjects.

[glorob]

They seem not to understand the problem. What is needed is better Maths students, ones that will be able to hack it in the technical subjects at Third Level. What is not needed is more people doing an Honours Maths that leaves them inadequately equipped to tackle these subjects.

Would it help if there were better maths teachers to teach maths to students?

[99_oK?]

Think Batt just ran with the baton, Ruairí is really going gung-ho for this new Project Maths though.

PM constituted about 40% of this year's paper (rising to 100% in 2 years). The way he went on today, it take us out of recession by Christmas at latest.

PM started to be rolled out in Sept 2010; expected to be 'completed' by June 2014. Had been a couple of years in the 'think-tank' stage (without much obvious progress). It's now a self-immolating entity - i.e. it is going to 'succeed' - officially anyway (hence the tweaked results).

Stage was set when Pisa figures began to slide rapidly about 10 years ago (still sliding BTW...). Then some of the top guys in places like Google, HP, the Pharmas, etc started moaning (with reason....) that the standards of some graduates was way below what was needed (& what used to be available....).

Nothing of course to do with the fact that most 'maths' teachers have no qualification in the subject (never-mind a Maths degree.....). That's not totally new (as I found that out when I attended a parent-teacher meeting about 15 years ago and wanted to discuss why my kid didn't get the explanation of first-principles/limits from teach, yet it took me only 3 minutes to outline the concept...; I had all the sprog's mates round the next evening). Oh, I've nothing against maths teachers, any teachers. Good teachers are brilliant; there are a lot of 'em out there, but not enough. I also found out the English teacher couldn't spell or punctuate, and that the múinteoir Gaeilge didn't understand some simple words, nevermind declensions.....
Yep, this was one of the better schools (officially....) and they're all graduates now......

------------------------


Oh, PM is the answer; pity they didn't know the question.......

[99_oK?]

Would it help if there were better maths teachers to teach maths to students?

That is a major problem in Ireland today; most maths teachers do not have a maths qualification, very, very few have a Maths degree, almost nobody going into Maths teaching in Ireland these days has an Honours Maths degree. This is being perpetuated by the VECs and the Teaching Council - they do not want Maths teachers, they want teachers of Science, SPHE, CSPE, etc, etc and Maths.; i.e. a person with a real maths degree won't get as far as the short-list, so someone with a nice soft qualification gets the job. Look at any ad for teachers and you'll rarely see a post advertised for a Maths (only....) teacher (maybe Private or Grind-School...).

Maths is the basis of all science and technology, yet it doesn't garner the respect or understanding that it should. Looking at the PM websites and listening to Quinn (a qualified teacher....), you'll begin to understand why.

Oh, a few days spent having coffee and looking at slides in the local Education Centre for a few days during the summmer does not cut the mustard as rgds Maths qualifications BTW; it only entitles the teacher to time off in-lieu to get away from the screaming brats in mid-winter. But even Boards of Management are easily fooled by a cert or 2.

Sad thing is we had a very good Maths (& English...) curriculum only a generation or 2 ago, and I do remember Maths teachers who understood and loved their subject. Because they understood and loved their domain, they could explain and engender a certain ease with the subject. It wasn't more onerous or difficult, just required a certain amount of magic to get going every now and then (like riding a bike, taking a side-line cut or the perfect drop-kick - it's not effort, more technique and timing, yet all we hear about is slogging at Maths......). I was lucky and engineering and IT built on those concepts and skills quite easily, i.e. I spent more time on the sports-fields as a student than in the library......
Most of the 'new breed' don't and can't do that, but the system is evolving away from real thinking anyway.

[blackwarrior]

99 - good arguments and I agree with a lot of them. But wasn't the objective to get more 2nd level students actually taking Maths, and not being frightened off by it, as was the case? That seems to have succeeded. Now that there are more students taking Hons Maths, there will be more candidates for Science, Engineering and computer courses which is the ultimate objective.

The country badly needs more engineering and technical graduates. This will go part of the way to achieving that. The universities will have to up their game too if the incoming standard is slightly lower (no harm there). The one I went to had a big name but was weak in Maths tuition.

If dumbing down Hons Maths slightly gets us more engineers, I'll take that.

[99_oK?]

99 - good arguments and I agree with a lot of them. But wasn't the objective to get more 2nd level students actually taking Maths - everyone takes Maths at 2nd level in Ireland...., and not being frightened off by it - no, not by the subject, but by incompetent teachers and administrators..., as was the case? That seems to have succeeded. Now that there are more students taking Hons Maths - it may be called Hons, but it's been dumbed down to Pass (or below..) level...., there will be more candidates for Science, Engineering and computer courses - see previous comment(being able to draw a traingle isn't exactly A-level Maths...) which is the ultimate objective.

The country badly needs more engineering and technical graduates - oh, totally, totally agree!. This will go part of the way - No, it'll make it almost impossible to get anyone suitable for/interested in a 3rd level course in such disciplines to be ready... to achieving that. The universities will have to up their game too if the incoming standard is slightly - i.e. I already said some of this new Maths is primary level in normal countries (Fr, Nl, De, It, De, etc) lower (no harm there). The one I went to had a big name but was weak in Maths tuition.

If dumbing down Hons Maths slightly gets us more engineers, I'll take that.

You mean you'd accept incompetent engineers; hardly. We don't want to see more incompetence in an area we had a decent record in (we're already a laughing stock in areas like international banking......). LC Maths (H) will not even equal an O-level; i.e. not even basic competence for ordinary living. I'd expect an A-level for Eng, It, etc. UL are already planning a sandwich course to try and get students who want to do study in these areas up to scratch; but that means the whole premise on which Ruaidrí is preaching is actually a crock of sh*t.

About 8-10 years ago it was flagged that standards in Maths (& English) were flagging somewhat here. The answer is not a smoke screen while lowering standards further. No good giving Mary (& everyone else...) a gold medal for waddling, when the real world expects Mary (& Martin) to perform at top level (& consistently). This isn't even a smoke-screen; it's actually going to make a problem into a crisis which will affect our standing in so many fields. We are going form a fading 1st world educational system to 3rd world with this; do the Math as the Yanks say...!

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Maybe you're posting this one totally tongue-in-cheek; if so touché...!


Yeah, suppose we could call the cleaning folks engineers; 'cause that's the standard Ruaidrí us setting here - everyone (work or not....) can do 'honours' maths......

[sewa]

I think we need to spread the right attitude, maths are easy, most maths is really, really easy and common sense. The negative perception of its percieved difficulty puts people who otherwise are perfectly capable off doing it

[scotscor]

Exactly, maths is problem solving, its fun. Most jobs that I have encountered are fundamentally problem solving in one way or another. Maths is the best course for getting people to deal with solving problems. Though I was always amazed with the number of people who were terrified of maths.
Why not have two courses. Project maths and pure maths, you can do both, if you are good at maths you get twice the points, if you aren't at least by taking project maths you get over the fear

[Thomond78]

Admittedly, twenty years ago, but I did honours maths and applied maths. Both have been hugely useful, but especially applied maths working out collisions.

[lahinch_lass]

Exactly, maths is problem solving, its fun. Most jobs that I have encountered are fundamentally problem solving in one way or another. Maths is the best course for getting people to deal with solving problems. Though I was always amazed with the number of people who were terrified of maths.
Why not have two courses. Project maths and pure maths, you can do both, if you are good at maths you get twice the points, if you aren't at least by taking project maths you get over the fear

there was 3 levels of maths back when I did my LC. Higher, ordinary & foundation... I did my LC in the early 90's and I think it was either the year directly after me or 2 years after that were the first to get a modified maths syllabus, I think it was about half or a third of the second book was ditched.
Only 3 girls in my year chose to do higher maths, I went on to do engineering, and the other 2 went on to do science course, but there were many others who did choose various science courses without having higher maths. I was also the first person in my (all-girls) school to do an engineering degree !
From what I remember of the various maths teachers I had & know .. all those who taught higher level tended to have science as their second subject in the school, or one of the science subjects. There was 1 maths only teacher up to inter-cert level but she was a nun so none of the sisters tended to teach more than 1 subject. The 3rd maths teacher in the school taught foundation level for leaving cert & her other subject was business studies/ accountancy. But I also had a teacher in primary school who was very good at teaching maths, I honestly felt I knew enough from primary to get a decent grade at inter cert maths.

The bonus points for maths is actually a better approach all-round, it encourages people to do a subject they perceive to the harder, and I know UL kept awarding bonus points for maths even when none of the other colleges did. I had at least one classmate in UL who'd gotten a D in the higher maths LC exam so he did the 2nd exam offered by the college to check if his maths competency was in the right area of the syllabus for someone applying for engineering.

[blackwarrior]

You mean you'd accept incompetent engineers; ...........

99 - what happened you between 18:01 (your original well-argued post) and 22:53 (your ridiculous reply to me)......?!!

The single sentence I've quoted above is a madcap inference from what I said. Pity. This was starting to be an interesting thread.

My main point was let's get more Leaving Cert students taking HL Maths, so the universities have a bigger intake. If the universities have to up their game, so be it.

I'm not going near any of the rest of your comments on my post.

[B.A.]

Exactly, maths is problem solving, its fun.

Dunno, I'm tempted to add Integration to the list of bollixes in the other thread. And the teacher who was incapable of giving us practical examples of it.

[Piquet]

99 - good arguments and I agree with a lot of them. But wasn't the objective to get more 2nd level students actually taking Maths, and not being frightened off by it, as was the case? That seems to have succeeded. Now that there are more students taking Hons Maths, there will be more candidates for Science, Engineering and computer courses which is the ultimate objective.

The country badly needs more engineering and technical graduates. This will go part of the way to achieving that. The universities will have to up their game too if the incoming standard is slightly lower (no harm there). The one I went to had a big name but was weak in Maths tuition.

If dumbing down Hons Maths slightly gets us more engineers, I'll take that.

But these engineers will be of a lower standard. Honours Maths is a standard requirement for entry to a Level 8 Engineering course with a few exceptions ( and these exceptions have alternative methods of ensuring profficiency in Maths)

If you lower the standard of the Honours Maths course, you automatically lower the standard of your intake to the Courses.

This lower standard of input will have one of two consequences,

• The Engineering course will be dumbed down to allow these students to pass or
• Standards will be maintained and more students will fail.

In the first case, we will have a lower standard of engineer.

In the second case, we will have fewer engineers.

Neither outcome is desirable.

[greenback]

it looks like the universities now will have to dumb-down their marking for eng/science to play catch-up and the world will be happy,an irish solution
alright

[99_oK?]

.....

My main point was let's get more Leaving Cert students taking HL Maths, so the universities have a bigger intake. If the universities have to up their game, so be it. - I don't disagree with any of that, but you obviously missed what this is ALL about.

.....

You seem to have missed the fact that what is now (or will be when Project Maths is fully implemented) called Higher Level maths is roughly equivalent to O-Level; i.e. it's just not of a high enough standard be be used as a foundation for 3rd level study in the subject. The old Higher level Maths curriculum stood some comparison with A-level Maths, the new curriculum does not come near the required standard (see the link I posted in a previous).

One glance at the course and how it is examined and marked will make that obvious.

And it's not the Uni's problem if the students that wish to study a discipline do not have the requisite experience or skills; that's why they have acceptance criteria.

We are competing on an international stage and here's where we are going: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...313321162.html

And here's where the only (now former sadly) head of a rare Irish 3rd level institution on the way up says of the way 2nd level is going: http://universitydiary.wordpress.com...ced-education/

[99_oK?]

Dunno, I'm tempted to add Integration to the list of bollixes in the other thread. And the teacher who was incapable of giving us practical examples of it.

B.A.,
Integration is a basic tool used across many fields - there are tons of practical examples and while you're tempted to add that to the B list, 'tis the incapable teacher that should go there. You seem to imply he was no fun either, or at least he couldn't make Maths classes enjoyable if not outright fun.

The obvious (& was on the old LC....) is finding areas and volumes. Also used in Chemistry (e.g. calculating half-lifes), Physics (anything to do with astro or space), biology, even business and trading models use integration.

[Piquet]

I knew we were in trouble when it became an optional part of the LC Syllabus.

[B.A.]

B.A.,
Integration is a basic tool used across many fields - there are tons of practical examples and while you're tempted to add that to the B list, 'tis the incapable teacher that should go there. You seem to imply he was no fun either, or at least he couldn't make Maths classes enjoyable if not outright fun.

The obvious (& was on the old LC....) is finding areas and volumes. Also used in Chemistry (e.g. calculating half-lifes), Physics (anything to do with astro or space), biology, even business and trading models use integration.

Relax my friend, I was being humourous. I got an A in high level maths all those years ago and I'm well familiar with integration.

[blackwarrior]

In the first case, we will have a lower standard of engineer.

In the second case, we will have fewer engineers.

Very logical, but vague. How many "fewer" engineers will we have? If it's still higher than what we have today, objective achieved.

As for HL Maths being equivalent to O Levels, what's the source for that? Or will one of 99's "glances" at it inform us?

[Piquet]

Looking at the overall statistics for the last three years given in yesterday's Times and available here, shows a few interesting points when converted into actual student numbers:

• 	2010		2011		2012
  Total	8390		8235		11131
  	No	%	No	%	No	%
  A1	629	7.5	486	5.9	345	3.1
  A2	587	7.0	618	7.5	712	6.4
  B1	688	8.2	824	10.0	1169	10.5
  B2	856	10.2	947	11.5	1414	12.7
  B3	898	10.7	1021	12.4	1592	14.3
  C1	1040	12.4	1062	12.9	1558	14.0
  C2	965	11.5	963	11.7	1391	12.5
  C3	876	10.4	741	9.0	1091	9.8
  D1	663	7.9	601	7.3	769	6.9
  D2	461	5.5	404	4.9	490	4.4
  D3	420	5.0	313	3.8	334	3.0
  E	235	2.8	181	2.2	200	1.8
  F	50	0.6	58	0.7	56	0.5
  NG	17	0.2	8	0.1	0	0

  
  
  The number of A1s has fallen significantly.
  The number of A2s rose but overall there are fewer A grades than in each of the last two years.
  All B grades and C1 and C2 grades have increased, both in percentage and actual numbers. Percentages and numbers of C3 grades have increased over last year but are still below 2010.
  D grades have decreased in percentage terms.
  Failure rates are down in both numbers and percentage terms. Indeed no one got an NG this year.
  
  Overall, 9272 or 83% got an Honour in Maths this compares to 6662 (80.9%) last year and 6536 (77.9%) in 2010.

So more students are at honours level but fewer of them are at the top. and the bottom. to get nerdy, the mean mark has increased and the standard deviation has fallen. [ the "bell curve" has tightened up and shifted to the left. ]


It was interesting to hear a number of those students, yesterday, who were delighted to get the bonus 25 points, and then said that they were going to study Arts, Languages, History etc.

[Piquet]

Very logical, but vague. How many "fewer" engineers will we have? If it's still higher than what we have today, objective achieved.

No. If the standard of the qualification remains the same and the intake standard is lower, then fewer of these incoming students will graduate than would previously graduated. This number will necessarily be lower than what we have today because the number of intake students will be the same as what we have today.

[Piquet]

I know that the LC exams are anonymously marked and the odds of it happening are miniscule, but what would your boss have done if one of her allotted pile of scripts had been done by one of her students?

[Old Dog]

I know that the LC exams are anonymously marked and the odds of it happening are miniscule, but what would your boss have done if one of her allotted pile of scripts had been done by one of her students?

She would have corrected it in the normal way, I presume. There'd be no incentive whatsoever to do otherwise and quite a lot of good reasons reasons not to!

[i_like_cake]

She would have corrected it in the normal way, I presume. There'd be no incentive whatsoever to do otherwise and quite a lot of good reasons reasons not to!

but it´s only a students number that´s written down, right... not their name....
how would she know... handwriting analysis..?

[Piquet]

But would she not be better off sending the script back and revealing a possible conflict of interest?

[Piquet]

but it´s only a students number that´s written down, right... not their name....
how would she know... handwriting analysis..?

She would have corrected a number of "sums" by that student in the course of giving the grinds.

[i_like_cake]

No woman that smart or observant would have married OD...... ,!! !!

[Old Dog]

But would she not be better off sending the script back and revealing a possible conflict of interest?

You've some nerve interrupting my cricket watching with such flights of hypothetical whimsy! However, gentleman to the soles of my feet as I am, here's my reply.

On reflection, she'd probably simply ask the senior examiner to re-mark it for her (as it is, he checks and re-marks a random sample of her scripts - including any that she flags for his attention.)

So what do you third-level lads do, given that you know all of the candidates?