I don't buy the argument that 3rd in Rabo, QF in HEC indicated that we're not "too far away". It's the continuous downward trajectory of the past 4 seasons which must be halted first.
Penney's biggest task will be to stabilise the decline. If we achieve the exact same positions in Rabo and HEC as last season, but do it as an improving team - I'll take that in year 1.
"Playing against ROG, your big game plan is to try and pressure him but he’d dump it off to Wally and next thing you’re five metres behind the gain line because he was an absolute freak." Rory Best, Irish Examiner, May 2012
It's all the electronics he's got stuffed up his jumper.Originally Posted by B.A.
The fact is if we'd had a scrum half playing against Ulster and a non blind referee we'd have beaten them and played in another HC final (where we'd have been hockeyed), the point is we arent that far off
David Wallace, James Coughlan - Heroes, Jonathan Davies
Irish Examiner
Downey expects positive response
By Barry Coughlan
Tuesday, August 14, 2012
James Downey is confident Munster’s youngsters will react positively to the challenge ahead under new coach Rob Penney.
In the first of three pre-season friendlies, the young guns were blitzed by French second division side Stade Rochelais last Friday.
However, with Downey back in the Munster colours after a prolonged spell with Northampton, he hopes it will be the start of something wonderful.
"I think it was a first run out for everyone and there was a lot of new caps there as well," he said.
"It is a tough place to come. La Rochelle had a few games behind them.
"We were trying to implement Rob’s new game plan.
"It is going to take a while. It might take a few weeks, but we have to stick to it and go along with it. It’ll happen, we just have to trust our abilities."
But when they analyse that video evidence Penney will be given plenty of areas to improve from the 31-7 loss.
Downey won’t have to be told how much is needed though. He acknowledged the defence will need to be much tighter but felt the attacking unit is close to clicking "one or two more phases and the holes we were looking for would have opened up".
Downey also figures the arrival of Penney and assistant coach Simon Mannix will be just what Munster needs to get a Heineken Cup challenge back on the road. And his prediction for the season?
"Tough ask, of course; it is a difficult draw in the Heineken Cup. But I think we are a tough side and we see Munster over the last few years were always regarded as a very hard to beat."
4 Feb 2011 - Gilmore on the General Election
"Frankfurts way or Labours way."
28 Feb 2012 - Gilmore on a yes vote for the fiscal treaty
"A vote for economic stability and a vote for economic recovery."
Good man James, not giving too much away
I realised I was dyslexic when I went to a toga party dressed as a goat
Disagree about Munster being on the slide for the last number of years . If we had our best team available and they had put in those results i would agree , but we have been decimated with injuries and have played players not fully fit .This has resulted in having to throw young players in at the deep end they are not on the slide just stating off .I have said this on other threads when we have are best available team for three consecutive matches the performances come , Perp away and NH last year . What happened after that match , 6N's and our best players came back injured and could not play in the Rabo b4 the Ulster match and carried injuries into that match .
With out having seen this match it is hard to judge anything , the number of handling errors and the players talking about struggling to implement a new game plan suggests a more off loading style,if the errors came from that i would not be to concerned those passes will stick with time . If they were dropping the ball just moving it along the line then that would be more concerning .You will always get a scrummaging test in France , but was the problems caused by the props or a lack of power from the seconds or bit of both ? Going forward i want to see the technical proficiency of the team improve in all areas, the inability to do the basics consistently hamstrung any chance to put a performance together . When we did have the ball we could make little use of it where lateral and unimaginative . The match reports talked about Munster having a lot of possession and territory in the first half but unable to score, we saw a lot of that last year and it is another area we need to see clear improvement .
Last edited by outside inside; 14th-August-2012 at 11:04.
Lots of new and inexperienced players playing a new gameplan. The players have a lot to take in. They need to keep in mind the gameplan as well as that they need time to get used to each other.
I think Munster will be stronger this season. Downey and Lualala are big improvements, Stander isn't bad and the experience of last season should help the younger players. McGahanball is being replaced and theres a new backs coach too.
So if there were shadow HEC or Rabo prizes available for teams that would have done better had their best players been fit and playing regularly we'd have won those easily.
Good to know that.
I think he was just trying to make a point that we haven't had our best players available at 100% fitness. Maybe the point is that we are not as bad as we think we are, us being the harshest of critics.
Not sure what the point in the shadow league trophies was.....a bit out of order if you ask me.
"It is understood he received offers from other clubs to continue playing for another year or two but preferred to finish his career with Munster."
Charlie Mulqueen on Mick O'Driscoll's impending retirement
17/04/2012
Ya, definitely. We have a remarkably better squad this year in my opinion. We have options. Last year we didn't even know what an option was. A bit of that had to do with injuries, but not all. Take 12/13 for example. We were not decimated by injuries there, we just had no options. Last year we could all name a 15 and it would be fairly similar. This year I can only be sure on about 7 or 8 spots, which is great. The competition for places will be fierce and will get the best out of players for sure. Our signings have been good, and our younger starlets are a year older.
Penney has alluded to playing a more expansive game and toughening up our pack, while ensuring there will be an emphasis on skills for backs and forwards alike. This will definitely take a while to implement. But when those passes start sticking and when we get a better idea of our strongest 15 things will (hopefully) start to gel. Confidence in the system will take a while. God knows we won't suddenly become World-beaters over night, nor will we be the best team in Europe. But hopefully we will be capable of beating any team on our day and build from there. And at knock-out stages, if you are capable of beating any team on your day, and we are given the underdog tag again, anything can happen.
Every team has to contend with injuries and retirements, and granted we endured more than our fair share of them last season.
The winners of the trophies fielded the strongest lineups they had available - just as we did.
It's all well and good suggesting we'd have done better had everyone been fit and playing regularly, but they weren't, and we didn't, so it's an entirely moot point.
I think you're conflating a few things there. I wouldn't criticise young players for being inexperienced or on their way up, but if you look at our back row unit 4 years ago and look at the one we had last year, there's only one direction that has travelled in. Yes, the young players are developing but it's a simple matter of fact that we've gone backwards in many areas.
It's clear that injuries have contributed to our slide, but that doesn't change the facts about where we are. A few seasons ago we were challenging for the HEC most years, getting to finals and last fours. We made four finals between 99/00 and 07/08. We were happy to back ourselves against all comers at home, and to look at wins away against most.
Now we are a last eight side (the year before last not even that). We have been knocked out of Europe at home two seasons running, one of those elimination from a competition that we were once openly dismissive of having failed to get out of our group for the first time in a decade.
We have gone from providing roughly ten of the Irish first XV to providing two or three.
There may be lots of reasons for our decline, but a decline it most certainly is. We are coming into 12/13 as the third Province in Irish rugby.
Penney's results and achievements can only be judged properly if we're realistic about where we are.
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
Of course every team has to contend with injuries, but the point being made was that we had far more than our fair share, if you can't see that, or perhaps you don't want to see that, so you can shoot down the arguement.
It's a discussion board...points are made and debated, but everytime I see you post, it is to shoot another person's opinion down. I got like that for a time with mfans, but took a step away from it all, and realised the point about this place. It's a place for munsterfans to discuss and debate their opinions, not to get shot down.
"It is understood he received offers from other clubs to continue playing for another year or two but preferred to finish his career with Munster."
Charlie Mulqueen on Mick O'Driscoll's impending retirement
17/04/2012
See post #101 above.
We maybe at cross purposes for me a slide is our 08 team putting in declining performances year after year not an injury ravaged team with callow young players mixing the good with the bad and the downright aweful . The backrow point you make for me emphasises the problem we should still have Wally and Leamey with POM coming in or putting pressure on JC from the bench . Is this a slide or are we having in many positions to start from scratch again with young players ? For me the NH away match shows that our best team fit and match sharp has a chance to do well in the HC .The squad has a deeper look about it this year , not just the additions but also the younger players who got experience last year we know much more about them .We have the potential to put out a very strong team and bench,and if we can play a gameplan that suits them and execute it properly we can have a good season to look forward to .
Team named for Bristol.
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/10667.php
Munster: D Hurley; D Howlett capt, C Laulala, J Downey, L O'Dea; I Keatley, D Williams; D Kilcoyne, D Varley, S Archer; B Holland, D Foley; T O'Donnell, S Dougall, P Butler.
Replacements: W du Preez, M Horan, BJ Botha, S Henry, D Casey, B Hayes, P Donnellan, Dave O'Callaghan, B O'Mahony, P Stringer, S Deasy, D Barnes, J Murphy, S Scanlon.
4 Feb 2011 - Gilmore on the General Election
"Frankfurts way or Labours way."
28 Feb 2012 - Gilmore on a yes vote for the fiscal treaty
"A vote for economic stability and a vote for economic recovery."
Surprised they named a team so early in the week,but away we go.
Otaga Daily Times 2/5/2012
Taz-Where did you get that information as I have seen nowhere that he(Penney) was ruled out?
Editor - The writer stands by the Penney information.
Otaga Daily Times 3/5/2012
Editor-- This article originally said Rob Penney had missed out on the Munster coaching job. That information was incorrect.
Is Hanrahan on the same pre season programme as the senior INTL's? Pity because it would have been great to see him in these games. Chances will be more limited you'd imagile when ROG is back.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again (like picking Gordon D'Arcy) and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein
I take it this will be a text update game for us foreigners...?
He was as lame as a duck. Not the metaphorical lame duck either, but a real duck that was actually lame. Maybe from stepping on a land mine or something.
The deadsite has him down as coming on the last day, but that is not exactly Gospel!
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/10663.php
Did Munster get a new press officer?
No, "The Editor" has been around for quiet some time.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too ?" - Douglas Adams
It's possible that releasing teams early is what Penney wishes to do, However, I would think that it is more a case of - it's pre season so send it early.
since about 1945 in fact
Classic Lievremont
Yes, apparently he fled the bunker before the Russians got there.
JCC with yet another post saying that there is no point to 'what if' analysis on a forum.
So many words so little point.
Irrah, go on JCC, red rep me again.
...in what way will you feel more Irish if you force me to give up my feeling of being British? - David Ervine
AH LADS..PLEASE. Can ye not just leave bygones be bygones..
Let's just amplify this a little. Munster's reputation as a "grinding tactical team" is overdone. Munster were always willing to run the ball when appropriate and scored many fine tries through the backs. However their strength was in the pack, one of the best packs ever to compete in the Heineken Cup, and therefore the games they played tended to be forward dominated affairs until they got into a strike position.
Leinster always had good runners and they got a whole ton of them all at once in the past decade; what they lacked (until the past few seasons) was a pack that could provide them with sufficient ball or grind with the English teams at the business end of the season. When they finally did get that type of pack and a coach to meld the two units into an effective force they became a very, very good team. Unfortunately for us that also coincided with both the decline of our forward power and the arrival of two coaches who wanted an entirely different style of play. Laurie Fisher disengaged the pack and Tony McGahan introduced lateral running - neither of which worked. It hastened the inevitable demise of our dynasty which Anno Domini was probably going to accomplish anyway.
Now that there is a new (and probably more appropriate) approach to coaching, to the team and to the individual players I would expect and hope to see the regenesis of a Munster team focused on fundamentals and some creativity. I don't think this will necessarily be 'Leinster style' rugby, but it may well be similar. No matter what it's called it is always a good idea to take an example from a successful and gifted coaching team such as that led by Joe Schmidt.
If Leinster supporters want to call it copying I don't really care - and nobody in Munster will carer either if it is successful.
Leinster played one dimensional rugby in Cheikas last season in charge. They had quality players but even so it took them a while before they learned how to play the Schmidt way. If I remember correctly some fans - as well as George Hook - were calling for Schmidt to go.
It takes a while to turn bad habits into good habits.
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