Irish Language.... fluency

[i_like_cake]

The only way we will be truly successful at speaking our native language is introducing it in baby infants and upwards, in schools.... every national and secondary school...

slowly bring it in as children move up through their classes every year, in an ideal world we would then be doing all the subject through Irish by the time they move to secondary school....

Teachers only have to speak to a decent level, hell, they would get better every year aswell...
Clearly you will have some schools in the disadvataged areas that might be reticent to such a change.... I think most hard working parents, that take foreign holidays can realise the advantages this would bring to their childrens lives.

Otherwise, we are just flogging a dead horse and a dead tv station.... and the street signs might aswell be half in Polish half in English....

[Huwie]

I was educated in Welsh all the way through to University. English is my second language.
I had no interest or need to speak English until I went to secondary school.
It didn't hold me back, in fact I believe I can relate better to other languages especially Spanish, French, Portuguese and Italian as there are many similarities.

"Ya can't know where you're going if ya don't know where you're from"
Mr T

[BOK]

I've worked with a few Welsh lads here in Cork and have been extremely jealous when I've heard them on the phone to their parents back in Wales speaking fluent Welsh or amongst themselves when they want a private conversation. I've also been more than a little embarrassed when I would be unable to string barely 2 lines of Irish together myself. It's important that we try and revive our native language as god knows we spent long enough fighting to keep our own identity that it would be a shame to let a large part of it die out on our own terms. Rather than people giving out about not being able to understand what is being said on TG4, we should watch it and try and pick up what we can from it even if its only a word here and there. You can be damn sure the French, Germans, Spanish etc... wouldn't be so quick to give up their languages and even a country like Wales, who had the English language forced upon them in a similar way to what we had, are more determined to hold on to their language than the majority of us here in Ireland are. So rather than just accepting the status of the Irish language in this country we should be fighting to revive it. We are suppose to be the fighting Irish after all.

[Huwie]

...even a country like Wales, who had the English language forced upon them in a similar way to what we had, are more determined to hold on to their language than the majority of us here in Ireland are.

For a while, it was one of the only big things that Wales had left to identify itself from England. That's why a lot of people are very protective over it. (doesnt go down well if you make a joke about it etc - i'm used to the jibes now "all clicks and whistles" etc).

I'm afraid that as Wales gets more of an identity the language will start to decline.
However, I am excited about is the growth of the Welsh language in Cardiff. There are certain areas which have large populations of Welsh speakers and certain pubs which are known as Welsh pubs (Caio Arms, Mochyn Du etc)

[BOK]

It's important that every country keeps their individual cultures and identities. It's what makes the world and in particular Europe such a colorful and interesting place. Hearing locals speaking their native language is as much a part of the experience as eating different cuisines or listening to different musics. If we start to lose that and all start speaking the same language then the world would be alot poorer for it and the whole place would become that bit more bland and beige. Thats why its important we revive the Irish language or ensure the continuation of the Welsh language etc etc..

[i_like_cake]

I agree with above statements, what I was trying to get at, is the easiest way to do this...

the only people to be put out are the teachers... but I think (for primary school anyway) they need to have a certain standard of Irish anyway...

[BOK]

I agree with above statements, what I was trying to get at, is the easiest way to do this...

the only people to be put out are the teachers... but I think (for primary school anyway) they need to have a certain standard of Irish anyway...

I think it has improved in recent years though, certainly from when I was in National school about 20 years ago. I see my nieces and nephews who are in national school now are certainly getting a better grasp of it than I ever did. When I was in school the way it was taught was ridiculous. So much so that I could speak more spanish after learning it for one year in secondary school than and I could Irish after 6 or 7 years of learning it through national school. Crazy really when you think about it.

[mr chips]

Agreed BOK. I left school with a better facility for speaking French than Irish. But the fact that they've gotten rid of Peig off the syllabus is a step forward at least! No substitute for early exposure to it though - age three is the best time to introduce a second language, and as ilc has stated immersion education is a better format not merely for acquiring fluency in the target language (be it Irish, French or whatever) - it has also been proven to facilitate superior development in several other areas, including in the child's first language - normally English in this country - as well as in problem-solving ability, creative thinking, cognitive development and in mathematical ability.

[i_like_cake]

I was going to post this in the Olympics thread, where there is a UK, British, Welsh etc nationality debate going on... but I´ll put it here, as being qualified as a unique culture is inherently linked to geographical position and language spoken.....

I have traveled many countries and lived in a few. Ireland, for the people that know it is considered part of the UK... even now living in Spain, a lot of the Spanish consider this, the venezuelans, Brazilians, Argentinians, for the most part, all think this....

I have given up giving a sh!t or feeling offended by this... I know many people that leave the country on holidays that hear this might feel offended, but until you start to recover your national identity, your language, you will always be considered british.

Oh I can whip out a hurley over here and surprise them by speaking in Irish... but getting through to people 1 by 1 would take far too long.
I (unfortunately) have a few exes from central and south America and their confusion as to why the queen wasn´t on our money or the visa differences were confusing, was initially annoying but gradually understandable....

Learning the language from a young age, language immersion is the key... could change our country massively within 20 years.... and how it is viewed from the outside world...

[Viigand]

I don't agree with you on that. Irish is of no practical use, and my nationality is not defined by the language I speak.

[Balla Boy]

I don't agree with you on that. Irish is of no practical use, and my nationality is not defined by the language I speak.

Aside from the fact that bilingual children tend to excel across the board in educational attainment, I think there are things like culture and social cohesion that are "practical", but perhaps not in the simplistic sense that it's sometimes used.

Language (literally) frames the way people think, influences the way they act and see the world and is a cornerstone of shared identity. It's significantly more powerful than you suggest, I think.

[i_like_cake]

Aside from what balla says about an educational thing... and language itself does make you think differently to your neighbours... I am lucky to have a few languages in my head.... Maybe it doesn´t affect people if they haven´t spent much time abroad, in non English speaking countries....

I have lived out of Ireland for the most part since 1998... and in non-english speaking countries, You can feel as Irish as a guinness arse on a sunday morning, no one else in that country will think that... to them you are British....

[fitzy73]

Isn't there a link between Irish and how we (as in Irish people) speak English? I'm pretty sure I read something about it before.

[Old Dog]

Isn't there a link between Irish and how we (as in Irish people) speak English? I'm pretty sure I read something about it before.

http://www.estudiosirlandeses.org/Is...adorMoreno.pdf

[Eamo]

It seems that the starting point of any discussion about the Irish language revolves around it's promotion rather than the worth of such promotion. The point made above about multilingualism being advantageous to general learning is well made but that point holds irrespective of the identity of the second language ( s).

I have no problem with Irish being taught in our system but why make it compulsory? We allow parents to make many decisions for kids of school going age: why not trust them when it comes to subjects of education? It's just another example of State interference in an area where it has neither rights or interests. Remember our education system is tax funded so we have little option but to avail of it.

[Viigand]

Personally, I would much rather have been taught Spanish or Mandarin throughout primary and secondary school rather than Irish, as it would have been a significant benefit to me. Perhaps have Irish taught up to junior cert level, or as an optional subject in secondary school.

[i_like_cake]

well thats great... and you can demonstrate your irishness in Venezuela by describing them at length who won the x-factor or the current plot development of coronation street in English, as you wear your lovely debenham bought jeans with a tshirt full of your favourite soccer players playing in england.... etc etc...

Not having a go at you Vii, i just think the Irish language is important to us, and back to the crux of the matter, how do we learn it easily growing up... so it isn´t an issue when i am in my 30´s....

[Old Dog]

... Perhaps have Irish taught up to junior cert level, or as an optional subject in secondary school.

Both Irish and English should be compulsory to Junior Cert, then both should become LC options - with the requirement that every student must take either Irish or English plus at least one another language in their LC.

(FG had indicated that it would introduce such a policy before last year's election, but the gaelgeoir Taliban promptly rallied its storm troopers and scared the crap out of them, so they scrapped the policy!)

[i_like_cake]

i would be ok with that policy.... but by the end of Junior cert we should have had 10 years speaking irish in schools... in all subjects sauf French etc etc... so we should be fluent by then....

[Viigand]

Venezuela is an embargoed country, I don't watch X factor or Coronation Street, nor do I follow soccer. And I don't think being able to speak Irish is of any benefit to me in South America anyway. I'm actually a reasonably good Irish speaker but never have cause to use it, and I think putting any more focus on it in some misguided attempt to use it as a means of promoting some sort of Irish nationalism is folly. It sounds to me like the blinkered approach of the 'support our troops' brigade in the US I would be fine with he approach advocated by Old Dog.

[Balla Boy]

Both Irish and English should be compulsory to Junior Cert, then both should become LC options - with the requirement that every student must take either Irish or English plus at least one another language in their LC.

(FG had indicated that it would introduce such a policy before last year's election, but the gaelgeoir Taliban promptly rallied its storm troopers and scared the crap out of them, so they scrapped the policy!)

I'd go further, and remove them from the exam structure altogether. I think that language learning should begin in primary school, and have progress structured in the way that music gradings are through a process of lifelong learning. It's proficiency that matters, and the whole approach that places languages alongside physics and history as things to be learned between 11 and 18 is part of the problem I think.

[Viigand]

I would agree that languages need to be taught from an early age and should be taught in primary school.

[Eamo]

Agreed re early language instruction and removal from the exam scrutiny. Replace an exam in the language with something like say 'Spanish/Chinese/russian or whatever country Studies' encompassing language, culture, history, political systems etc of that country. Make it a genuinely mind-broadening thing rather than an exercise in rote learning of verb tenses and irregulars etc.

[NiallGK]

...It's proficiency that matters, and the whole approach that places languages alongside physics and history as things to be learned between 11 and 18 is part of the problem I think.

Absolutely spot on.

High proficiency in another language or indeed multiple languages can only really be achieved where someone is immersed at an early age. It is in the years between birth and puberty that a child's is sensitive to the acquisition of languages. Thereafter any attempt to do so will seldom result in fluency largely as a result of what is called 'language transfer' (the first language's influence over use of the second language).

One of the great hurdles that anyone learning a language must overcome in order to become proficient is mental translation, that is the facility to think in that language as the use it. This is seldom if ever achieved by someone who is not immersed in that language from an early age. Indeed, it appears that the only way for an adult, or adolescent to develop a degree of fluency is by total immersion (e.g. living in a foreign country) for an extended period.

My own children are an example of this. Unfortunately. I became separated from my French wife when my son and daughter were three and a half and five and a half respectively. They returned to France and thereafter only spent limited times here (usually at Christmas and in summer, plus either Easter or October.

Both are perfectly fluent in English. My daughter speaks English with an Irish accent and my son recently received 100% (20/20) in his English Baccalauréat. The simple reason is that when they lived here I always spoke to them in English while my ex-wife always spoke to them in French. Conversations at the dinner table were always bilingual.

As Europeans, the British and Irish (and to a lesser extent the French) are far down the rankings when it comes to second language acquisition. 89% of Swedes are proficient (if not entirely fluent) in English and the figure is over 80% in The Netherlands, Iceland and Denmark. Why? Quite simply, because it is thought in all of these countries from a very early age and indeed it is standard practice to teach English to pre-school children in Sweden.

Now then, what level of proficiency in the Second Official Language do Irish people have?

I reckon that fewer than 20% of Irish can speak it with any level of fluency. Even though the learning of Irish begins at five we probably have a greater number of people who are proficient in some or other foreign language, especially French.

To my mind, there appears to be a resistance amongst many Irish to the language. Many feel that it is about as relevant as learning Latin or classical Greek. The compulsory status of Irish at second level also reinforces this negativity.

Let us for a moment look at why we as Irish people abandoned the language in our droves during the 19th century. The answer lies in personal survival and economic advancement. If you were proficient in English in 1847, you might at least have some chance of survival. After the famine, the fear of existing on a subsistence livelihood pushed huge numbers to speak English and dispense the old tongue.

It is high time that the department of Education changed their attitude to the education of our children with regard to all languages including that of Irish.

Far too much influence is wielded in the Department by what Old Dog colourfully describes as “the gaelgeoir Taliban”. They are stupidly stuck on their belief in compulsory Irish in schools.

I believe this does not serve their interests (as it promotes resistance) and certainly discommodes those with an interest in learning a foreign language.

They have no real interest in the learning of other languages by Irish children and as a result of their policy, they have effectively neutralized our educational system to produce students who have fluency in ANY language.

[No. 16]

http://www.estudiosirlandeses.org/Is...adorMoreno.pdf

To address the topic...I also think OD's JC - LC proposition earlier in the "tread" *wink* makes sense. I also agree with the commentary that Irish is bit more "practical" than some are prepared to acknowledge because of their own experiences. I would argue that it is fairly flipping practical if you live in a gaeltacht! ...Or if you are in one regularly. I'd also argue that it would be a wee bit practical if you had a job working for RnaG or TG4! Call me crazy on that though if you want.

Now...having satisfied that...allow me to pick up on Fitzy's tangent as addressed by OD above. (thanks for the article...mainly common knowledge for the natives...but will be handy for me to forward abroad to my English speaking and almost English speaking friends).

Now! *wink* I think a little bit more attention needs to be paid to English in schools. My ears can stomach *wink* hearing "tree" for 3 especially considering the historical "tri" as gaeilge. I can also tolerate hearing the past tense of think as "taught" (although it is a little bit more disturbing seeing it written - it still gives me pleasant memories of my childhood and tweety pie and putty tats).

I'm not prepared to argue about the pronunciation of Thomond park or debate on the historical or contemporary preferences on Eithne.

HOWEVER! If I hear those silent H-aphobes from south Dublin adding in an h where it doesn't belong on the end of a perfectly good word that ends in a "t" - F them from their "heightH"!!!! ...I shall thqweem and thqweem and thqweem until I am thick!

Furthermore, the silent H has a long historical presence in the English language, as evolved, Theresa and her herb garden *wink* only to be irrationally scorned by the insecure and soft mindedly privileged snobbery class. Forget thqweeming! If I hear another one boasting about how he doth enjoy going to that delightful restaurant with the "Mitchelin" star, I would do well to restrain myself from stabbing him in the tongue with a carving fork.

[NO'G]

To address the topic...I also think OD's JC - LC proposition earlier in the "tread" *wink* makes sense. I also agree with the commentary that Irish is bit more "practical" than some are prepared to acknowledge because of their own experiences. I would argue that it is fairly flipping practical if you live in a gaeltacht! ...Or if you are in one regularly. I'd also argue that it would be a wee bit practical if you had a job working for RnaG or TG4! Call me crazy on that though if you want.

Now...having satisfied that...allow me to pick up on Fitzy's tangent as addressed by OD above. (thanks for the article...mainly common knowledge for the natives...but will be handy for me to forward abroad to my English speaking and almost English speaking friends).

Now! *wink* I think a little bit more attention needs to be paid to English in schools. My ears can stomach *wink* hearing "tree" for 3 especially considering the historical "tri" as gaeilge. I can also tolerate hearing the past tense of think as "taught" (although it is a little bit more disturbing seeing it written - it still gives me pleasant memories of my childhood and tweety pie and putty tats).

I'm not prepared to argue about the pronunciation of Thomond park or debate on the historical or contemporary preferences on Eithne.

HOWEVER! If I hear those silent H-aphobes from south Dublin adding in an h where it doesn't belong on the end of a perfectly good word that ends in a "t" - F them from their "heightH"!!!! ...I shall thqweem and thqweem and thqweem until I am thick!

Furthermore, the silent H has a long historical presence in the English language, as evolved, Theresa and her herb garden *wink* only to be irrationally scorned by the insecure and soft mindedly privileged snobbery class. Forget thqweeming! If I hear another one boasting about how he doth enjoy going to that delightful restaurant with the "Mitchelin" star, I would do well to restrain myself from stabbing him in the tongue with a carving fork.

That is not only restricted to South Dublin. I've heard a presenter (can't remember who) on a Limerick radio station refer to Thomas Street pronouncing it as if the "h" was not silent when everybody knows it pronounced with a hard 't' like the T(h)ames in London

[fitzy73]

Aren't idioms, accents and colloquialisms the things that make language interesting though?

Upon my arrival in France for the first time, I was asked "Avez vous un feu?". Picking up on Niall's post above, I racked my brain for a few seconds, thinking I may be alight.

Generally speaking, I like difference. (I'll make exceptions though - the whiny Aussie surfer boy English, and the god awful Estuary accent, both drive me to despair).

[No. 16]

Aren't idioms, accents and colloquialisms the things that make language interesting though?

Upon my arrival in France for the first time, I was asked "Avez vous un feu?". Picking up on Niall's post above, I racked my brain for a few seconds, thinking I may be alight.

Generally speaking, I like difference. (I'll make exceptions though - the whiny Aussie surfer boy English, and the god awful Estuary accent, both drive me to despair).

Yes generally as I said. I like the uniquely Irish habit of incorrectly dropping the infinitive after the verb "allowed" (he wasn't allowed [to] go). Things like that are adorably colloquial. However if you say "heighth" or "mitchelin" I may try to stab you in the tongue with a carving fork. There's simply no excuse and one should not be allowed (to) speak until completion of some further lessons. This is similar to what you mention though and I hear it all the time on BBC news. It's the inability of the English to pronounce the long vowel sound for "o". "Jah-zay" for Jóse (hoe-zay) and "yah-gurt" for Yogurt. It's amusingly pathetic. However this is picking nits go leor as it has nothing to do with Irish, ceart galore.

[mr chips]

Ah now, No. 16, I think your chef training is showing! I think there are a few foreign words/placenames whose mispronunciation in English is perfectly acceptable. Nobody talks about flying to "Paree" unless they are trying to be funny or have prefixed it with the adjective "gay". Similarly, nobody puts "Meesh-uh-lang" tyres on their cars - hence "Mitchelin" stars for restaurants!

Fitzy - how in the name of bejaysus was the D4 accent not listed among your pet hates?

[fitzy73]

Fitzy - how in the name of bejaysus was the D4 accent not listed among your pet hates?

Due to my time in Dubland, I have a bit of a D4 twang apparently .. roysh?