My local prem team have been tested twice already during pre-season.Originally Posted by Balla Boy
Re the man city article fitzy has posted, this prem rugby teams supplements include multi vits, fish oils, branch chain amino acids, Beta alanine, lucine, colostrum, protein, creatine and beetroot juice!!
Wasn't this part of the issue with the Bath players, they objected to out of season tests, which leads me to believe they weren't in there a couple of years back
\"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"
What happened in Steffon's Armitage case is not a positive doping test, despite what Rugbyrama tabloid said it's an administrative misunderstanding between AFLD, Toulon doctor and Steffon papers for AFLD.
- The doctor AND Steffon declared to AFLD that Steffon had Paracetamol 2 weeks before the Top14 final (since playoff versus Racing)
- The doc asked AFLD if they can rise up doses because Steffon's pain.
- AFLD answers : you should keep the dose and change for Codeined Paracetamol.
- The doc declared Codein Paracetamol for Steffon Armitage to AFLD the week before Final.
- AFTER the final, Steffon goes to Anti doping session, and answered "2 pills", his daily dose on the paper file that asked - in french - how much / day (meaning since the beginning, he should had written 2x7)...
- declarations don't match. So analyzes because of the codein rate muted in morphin, matching for a week treatment not for 2 pills...
- AFLD contact the clubs doc. Who confirms the prescription for the week, as earlier declared.
- AFLD answers : ok for misunderstanding, we will correct the results.
July :
- Rugbyrama headlines "Steffon positive to doping tests"
- FFR said he is already suspended and commission will hear him in 1 month, after the 1st Top14 game.
- AFLD says "Neither Paracetamol, or Codein are forbidden, even not masking products, we can audience M. Armitage earlier to close the file which is a little administrative mistake".
- Rugbyrama apoligies...
- FFR keep the commission in 1 month.
"Mayol, it's like the Canterbury Crusaders fans, but under steroids !" Andrew Mehrtens 2007
got to say a thanks tag isn't enough for the effort of putting that down. We're all quick (me included) to jump on stories but it's good when someone takes the time and effort to get the correct details in front of people
\"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"
With my awful english, it's a miracle if you understood half of it.
"Mayol, it's like the Canterbury Crusaders fans, but under steroids !" Andrew Mehrtens 2007
Sean O'Brien was on the radio last week saying he takes no supplements at all , only food!! what kind of food is he eating??
Last edited by mr chips; 30th-July-2012 at 13:03. Reason: cautiousness
Babies.
"They’re the benchmark that everyone else has to raise their game to meet." Alan Quinlan on Leinster
Dunno, but the bull never touched supplements either. Its on hearing things like this that i get annoyed when know-it-alls are convinced that modern rugby players are all at it. Now i'm not so green to believe that since the game has gone pro that no-one has cheated in the drugs department but those that claim that 'drug abuse must be widespread because players do a lot more than they used' and 'there's no way they'd recover for the amount of games they play' are displaying a great level of ignorance to the advances in sports science imo.
rugby is going to see an awful lot more drug testing now it's on the olympics roster of sports.. anyone in 7's had better be clean or they'll be caught soon enough.
Plato: \"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.\"
I'd imagine a decent amount of schools rugby players in all countries would probably fail a drugs test.
Connacht Rugby
"Live to win. Born to lose"
Because AFLD recommended it : Steffon Armitage temporary suspension just had been cancelled by FFR, which caused huge bloody pains in their a$$es.
So he can play trials now and for the Top14 opening day at Perpignan.
He's still called for the official audience on august 21st.
And urged by legal delay for lawsuits, FFR also cancelled Carl Hayman's suspension (as they should have before the last Final game...).
Of course, Hayman didn't play the Final 2 months ago, but of course now he should. Ha.
They had no choice because of many procedural irregularities.
Which caused some cerebral strikes and vampires diarrheas.
But... War is not over.
Last edited by Hellboy; 2nd-August-2012 at 12:55.
"Mayol, it's like the Canterbury Crusaders fans, but under steroids !" Andrew Mehrtens 2007
on slight tangent this is what annoys me when people say about how we don't produce naturally big guys like other countries do - Hayes and SOB are natural physical brutes
\"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"
Add to that Bueller. For Ireland's sake I hope Chris Farrell is eating like a shire horse this summer, a naturally big lad who could turn out to be our 12 for a good few years.
On what evidence do you base that unbelievably sweeping statement, Outlaw you have out outlawed yourself.
He´s right... even when I was in secondary school, alot of the lads would have failed a test... 15 years ago now.....
He was as lame as a duck. Not the metaphorical lame duck either, but a real duck that was actually lame. Maybe from stepping on a land mine or something.
basic common sense. I dont drink the cool-ade.
There has been enough studies/articles freely available on the web about it. Come out of the box some day and have a look.
WHEN 20-year-old Colin Murphy played rugby for Belvedere College . . . today facing St Mary's College in the Leinster Schools Senior Cup final . . . he claims supplement use was the norm.
"It was not unusual for students to be taking shakes and other supplements after training. Maxi Muscle Cyclone is quite popular because of the advertising, " he said.
Murphy described how a fellow student missed training because of illness and tried to bulk up quickly with creatine.
"He became very bloated, which can happen when it's not correctly taken. He probably had overloaded on the amount taken. I tried to look into it and take the stuff that was safe. Most people take stuff without second guessing it, or checking up. If they hear that people are using it, then it's usually good enough for them."
The Sunday Tribune spoke with several former rugby schools players, some from different rugby provinces, most of them now playing at under-20 college level. Many students taking supplements admit to being unconcerned about potential side-effects.
Although mild side-effects are common, some share rumours of more serious side-effects, such as severe headaches and heart palpitations, among other rugby playing students.
Mark Hurst (20) a former schools rugby player from Enniskillen, said Maxi Muscle Cyclone is probably the most common supplement in schools rugby.
"I have used it [Maxi Muscle Cyclone] sparingly for a month. It didn't really have any great effect on me and it was widely used within the school. I would say that Maxi Muscle Cyclone is used by at least 80% of rugby students who are taking supplements.
The advertising on products like Maxi Muscle Cyclone is very strong and appears in a lot of popular health magazines so I don't think potential side-effects are something students worry about."
One current schools rugby player who spoke to the Sunday Tribune asked to be identified only by his first name, Stephen. He says he began to experience heart problems while using a combination of Maxi Muscle Cyclone and another product called BSN Cell Mass. Under advice from his doctor he stopped using both products.
When questioned by the Sunday Tribune about possible long-term effects of such products he maintained it was "necessary" among his peers to bulk up. He now uses only pure protein supplements to increase muscle mass.
James Kelly was playing rugby for a Munster school when he began to experience discomfort while using Maxi Muscle Thermobol, a popular slimming product containing high levels of vitamin B12 which is not authorised for sale without prescription by the Irish Medicines Board.
"It started to speed up my heart and I became a bit concerned about this. Sometimes I had a tightening in my chest which was a bit uncomfortable. I started to realise that this probably wasn't normal and I stopped using it."
Kelly is acutely aware of the pressure within the schools rugby system. "There can be great pressure on players within schools rugby. The level of training is like that of a professional athlete and there can be a lot of pressure on schools for success so the desire is there on the part of students to get an extra edge which a supplement can offer. Rugby has become a professional game and this is something which rival sports like the GAA don't offer."
Dara Kernan (21) who has played rugby for 13 years, began to experience heart palpitations with a popular sports supplement, BSN Nitrix.
"This supplement [Nitrix] is the only supplement I've experienced any problems with, and it was only for a short while when I started taking it. I started getting heart palpitations and very short spells of dizziness to the point where I was going to almost black out.
"The palpitations were very short but were quite intense.
It did say on the bottle that some side-effects might happen."
Dara also became concerned about the number of capsules the product recommended he should take.
"I became concerned about the dosage. It says that for my body weight I should take four tablets three times a day, but after getting heart palpitations, there was no way I was going to start putting 12 tablets into my body."
Death of Jamie Quinn Jamie Quinn, like most men in their early 20s, led an active sporting life; he played soccer and GAA and was a coach at underage soccer level. He was about to start playing golf the day after he died.
On 2 October 2004, while out enjoying himself with friends at a nightclub in his local town of Edenderry, Co Offaly, Quinn collapsed on the dance floor and died after attempts to revive him failed.
The coroner's inquest last November revealed Quinn died due to asphyxia, which resulted from a combination of moderate to high alcohol levels, steroids and creatine. The level of alcohol was not considered unusual for a young man of his age.
Quinn had been using a muscle-building creatine product called Cell-Tech. His mother remembers Quinn started to feel unwell when he began taking it.
"He initially thought he had diabetes and he spoke to some people about this, but he seemed fine again a while after this. Using supplements was just something new that he had started to get into, just like other sports."
Traces of anabolic steroids were found in the postmortem analysis, giving rise to worrying concerns given what the Sunday Tribune found to be contained in supplements sold in many shops in Ireland.
Medical concerns Dr Martin Henman of the school of pharmacy at Trinity College Dublin said of the product Maxi Muscle Cyclone, which contains beta-ecdysterone, that it should be on sale by prescription only.
"Beta-ecdysterone was labelled an anabolic steroid by the Irish Medicines Board, " he said. He also said the level of vitamin B12 in Maxi Muscle Thermobol meant it should also be available only with a prescription.
Dr Conor O'Brien, former chairperson of the Irish-Anti Doping Committee and former committee member of the World Anti-doping Agency, said legislation was called for.
"We need a structure and legislation and it's a very grey area. It is now a concern with young men dropping dead as a result of sudden cardiac arrest, showing that this could be also caused by contaminated supplements as anabolic androgenic steroids which can cause direct cardiac damage. Heart muscle hypertrophy, elevation in blood pressure and interference with the normal rhythm and conductivity of the heart have been reported."
O'Brien began lecturing to schools on the issue as long as 10 years ago, but admits the problem is now growing, "While supplements may indeed improve your performance in sport, you may well be taking something that will cause long-term damage to your health, " he said.
The Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU) is also concerned at the use of supplements in rugby-playing schools, and recently issued guidelines to schools advising against the use of supplements such as creatine.
A Croke Park spokesperson yesterday said: "The GAA would not not encourage the use of creatine-like supplements for its players."
Speaking to the Sunday Tribune earlier this year, Brendan Buckley of the Irish Sports Council said: "There are one or two schools who have adopted good preventative policies, but these schools generally aren't the ones with the winning teams. . . I would be extremely concerned that a blind eye is being turned to this problem by the schools when in fact it is their duty to show leadership."
The facts Substances such as ephedra, once widely used in slimming products, were banned some years ago due to health concerns. This brought about a move within the billion-dollar supplements industry to replicate ephedra-like ingredients which many believe may be just as harmful.
Many of them are now using bitter orange, an ingredient common in weightloss supplements that are often marketed as 'ephedra free'. This substance is contained in concentrated form in Maxi Muscle Thermobol.
Bitter orange is a stimulant derived from a citrus fruit which contains related chemicals that, like ephedra, may raise blood pressure and disturb heart rhythms. Ephedra's active ingredient is ephedrine, while the active ingredient in bitter orange is synephrine;
both act as adrenaline-like stimulants that affect the heart and nervous system.
While synephrine is not included on the World Antidoping Agency's list of prohibited substances, which came into effect in January of this year, a spokeswoman for the Food and Drugs Administration in the US has previously said synephrine is associated with seven deaths and 85 adverse reactions.
The Sunday Tribune was unable to contact Maximuscle Ltd, manufacturers of Cyclone and Thermobol.
Internationally, concerns have been raised over the ingredients and safety of BSN products. The Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) of Australia recently recalled BSN Cell Mass, along with several other products from different manufactures.
TGA, Australia's medicines regulator, labelled the supplement Cell Mass as a class-one defect . . . "potentially threatening or could cause a serious risk to health". It maintained BSN Cell Mass contained traces of coumarin, a prescription drug used to prevent blood clots. Possible side-effects associated with drugs such as coumarin can include excessive bleeding and coumarin should not be used in combination with certain medications, including antibiotics.
__________________
Connacht Rugby
"Live to win. Born to lose"
Alarmist ****e. Conflating creatine, supplements and steroids that casually is the worst form of Sunday Scare'em journalism.
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
Taking supplements without a care for the side effects does not equate to the sort of institutional drug abuse Outlaw is suggesting. Sure lots of teenage lads have always wanted to bulk up that does not mean they are jabbing themselves till their eyes go yellow.
Nope but your sheer ambivalence towards the subject is eye-opening. For me anyway. Certainly explains a lot.
Connacht Rugby
"Live to win. Born to lose"
So not being willing to run with broad assumptions based on crappy journalism is ambivalence?
I don't think anyone is happy about the notion of drug use in rugby. What we're willing to admit, unlike yourself, is that we don't know how much of a problem it is.
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
In his case he'd allow you to think its not a problem. At schools level it is- across the board in all countries. You'd only have to look at the world u20 world cup to see it.
Connacht Rugby
"Live to win. Born to lose"
Which prompts the question you didn't really answer before - how do you know? I'm genuinely asking. I've seen a few lads come into our club from schools over the last few years. They're pretty chunky, but I've no idea if or what they're using.
Where does your info come from?
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
Delon for sure but I've never heard/read anything bad about Steffon in terms of bad attitude/behaviour.
Agree completely. He's been lumped in with Delon. I don't recall any major incidents with Steffon.
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
I'd say it's one of those legendary gut feelings. It's specific enough to sound like you're like not one of those blinded sheeple, maaaaan but vague enough that no amount of evidence can be reasonably produced to refute it.
To The Brave and the Faithful, Nothing is Unpublishable.
We met epic Jerry Collins, Willie Mason and Gavin Henson down here,
We heard a lot about Delon, who said he came here to change his way of life... Wait and see.
Steffon is definitely not that kind of bloke. Much more balanced.
Happy in family, very nice with everyone in town and never reported in any trouble.
"Mayol, it's like the Canterbury Crusaders fans, but under steroids !" Andrew Mehrtens 2007
It comes from his arse. I am not one of the posters here that immediately ridicules any post The Outlaw makes but at times it is hard to follow how his thought processes go.
I have been involved in playing and coaching rugby at schools, under-age club and senior-club level and I have only ever came across one player who was on the 'juice', he competed in amateur weight-lifting as well and this is what impacted more on his decision making than being 'big' for rugby because he wasn't small by any stretch. I've known plenty of guys that were on the juice to make themselves look better for the ladies or whatever else but none have been what I would call proper athletes i.e. people that need to rely on movement instead of just muscle mass; once you've seen someone on a crude cycle of D-Bol or some such there is little mistaking the look a person has. Whatsmore unless you are mixing it with another series of drugs it has the effect of just bloating you which is of little long-term benefit for any sort of rugby player.
Like Peatbog having seen what I have seen at all levels of rugby and knowing a good few past and present professionals, I find it incredible when people come along and propogate what Outlaw does as hardened fact. Indeed what is more alarming is that 'fact' doesn't realy come into their line of sight rather it is a mere inconvenience. I have been called naieve on this site before when having similar debates because i refused to accept their 'reality' based on what I have seen with my own eyes and been told about first hand.
I have also watched guys 'bulk up' naturally far quicker than someone in a 9-5 job could ever do; it was done by eating the guts of 6 square meals per day, somewhere in the region of 7-9,000 calories. I've watched guys 'cut' from 110kgs to 100 by almost eradicating carbs and living off high-protein food, protein shakes, other supplements and water...you can only imagine what their arse was like by the end of that.
The thing that has to be remembered is that to be a good rugby player you have to have a certain body type to make it even as a school-boy initially. Most school-boy rugby players are by and large structurally bigger than the majority of their peers-Wide shoulders, bigger boned etc. I'm not saying they have to be massive but it certainly helps; most schools coaches will take a similar view to Jake White- A good big 'un is better than a good little 'un. This broader body-type is more conducive to putting on muscle mass and being able to carry it as well. From this point if they are identified as players with potential they will go into the various under-age structures where they will be given access to advanced weight-training advice, dietary advice and supplement advice. There also seems to be an assumption that just because school players are 'big' they are on something.
When I think back to my school-boy days it was the peak of most of mine and my peers physical fitness. We were in the gym 3 times a week, rugby training twice a week with a match or two thrown in for good measure. Now I'd be lucky to go to the gym twice a week and I've given up playing almost altogether yet it never fails to amaze me how people that live a similar lifestyle expect to be bigger or fitter looking/feeling than 18 year-olds?
As for the idea that drugs are rife in professional sport the only drugs i'd be concerned about are the amount of pain-killers players take throughout the season just to get them from game to game, especially at the 'business-end' of the season. Whatsmore it is not that these drugs are illegal, they are not but what is worrying for me is the long-term damage that it will do to players though I suppose that is part of the job description of a pro rugby player nowadays.
Regarding doping however I really cannot believe it is more prevalent than it has been statistically shown to be. I think it stems back to the point that rugby players, especially pro rugby players, are a pretty unique set of physical specimens. They have to have both a strong aerobic and anaerobic capacity that is not just as common as people seem to think. They are power athletes that have to be able to last 80+ minutes. They are tested regularly in both the off-season and on-season; I think i was told recently by an Irish international that he had to give holiday details to the doping authorities...though I could have got my wires crossed on that. It would be too big a risk to take IMO, especially for established professional and/or international players. The marginal phsyical improvements it may give you versus the risk of a 2-year ban is quite a chance to take.
I would accept it could be more prevalent for those on the edge of 'making it' but again I have never seen it personally or even heard of it second hand.
I am of course only speaking about what I have seen and heard in my own stomping ground, I cannot say about Dublin, Limerick, Cork etc or equally France, England or such so I am open to other evidence. My own gut feeling however is that it simply isn't quite as common as some people would have you believe.
Good post RHH.
4 Feb 2011 - Gilmore on the General Election
"Frankfurts way or Labours way."
28 Feb 2012 - Gilmore on a yes vote for the fiscal treaty
"A vote for economic stability and a vote for economic recovery."
I'd agree from what I've seen RHH. It's easy to underestimate the effects of full time training of the intensity these guys undertake and, as you say, we are by definition looking at a highly select segment of the population.
My faith is maintained by the occasional busting for recreational drugs, which suggests that somewhere someone is scanning these guys regularly.
I know that out of season testing was a long time coming, but if that's in place then the big loophole is closed.
I've done the protein and water thing myself, and can attest to the impact.
The other thing that I think is underestimated is the shift of gyms into clubs. When I first started playing club rugby, the only guys doing weights were doing them in general gyms with all of the add ons of "gym culture" that that implies. Now rugby players train in gyms with rugby players, on the whole, rather than body builders.
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
The other thing I would factor into the discussion is that generally I have found rugby people to be good sportsmen for whom cheating by taking drugs would be anathema. Maybe I am phenomenally naive.
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