It's actually more standard for an incoming head coach to be given a chance to bring in his own staff if he wishes.Originally Posted by rathbaner
Also sorry but I don't agree that we can't be real Munster supporters and not raise issues like this.
To the blind and the faithful nothing is allowed to be questioned????????
BTW I think you'll find Pol Pot did a bit of indiscriminate culling to solve his issues with the people he inherited.....
Last edited by GesPM; 2nd-June-2012 at 06:31.
As Tana Umaga, Andrew Mehrtens, etc...
Just saying.
"Mayol, it's like the Canterbury Crusaders fans, but under steroids !" Andrew Mehrtens 2007
Superb pic ...
Otaga Daily Times 2/5/2012
Taz-Where did you get that information as I have seen nowhere that he(Penney) was ruled out?
Editor - The writer stands by the Penney information.
Otaga Daily Times 3/5/2012
Editor-- This article originally said Rob Penney had missed out on the Munster coaching job. That information was incorrect.
Strings seems uncomfortable looking down for a change
I realised I was dyslexic when I went to a toga party dressed as a goat
Jeez, that new scrum half of ours is gonna have to bulk up a bit.
Never mind perception because it isn’t real. It’s only what people think. Go out and make them think something else.
- Alan Quinlan on believing in yourself
Looks like ninja Munster to me, and Paulie is still lovely
"You were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!"
Seems to be bringing something to the table anyway: some actual set backline moves, some decent depth and good passing from 1-15, great support lines and good awareness for offloading.
Shameless self promotion time ladies and gents!
Munster: Early Season
Munster: Escape from Pool of Death
Munster: HEC Champions 2007/2008
Munster: Full Season Highlights.
No complaints yet - big upgrade from where we were
The support on the shoulder has impressed me a lot. Great support and follow through by players. Making the pop/pass then back up on the shoulder of the next player. Great to watch
Very good so far, this Sat against the blitz defence of the O's will be interesting . Last couple of seasons we have used a second line and have lost huge distances to their shooter in the centers . They have cut off Rog's wide flat pass and as well they have kept their wingers back to cut off the kick to the corner thus turning him back inside . Would expect Downey to be used quite a bit close in on first phase looking for the offload and then pick and goes before going wide . However if Downey is rested not sure we have another player at the moment who can just crash it up . Chip kick works well against the blitz , but you really need you 9, 10 to take a lot of ball on themselves . When Ulster played them a few weeks ago they had Jackson passing back inside to the blindside winger or one of their backrow , it made for a very tight and narrow game . Team selection and the game plan they use will really interesting .
Yeah, no complaints so far either. Running lines deeper, support players running different angles, and over awareness of the player with the ball has improved. How much of that is Penny or Mannix hard to know, or even Foley. Its beginning to work, and thats all that matters. Big tests to come in the next month
Dont need reason, dont need rhyme,
Aint nothin I would rather do,
Goin down, party time,
My friends are gonna be there too
I'm on a Highway to Hell ...
no link available online
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Daily Mail (GB): BLACK MARK ; Traumatised for years by his All Blacks failure,
2012-10-07 10:57:13.407 GMT
Simon Mannix insists that terrible experience as a 19-year-old now has him perfectly placed to help Munster's young guns avoid the pitfalls [Eire Region]
Oct. 07 (Mail on Sunday) -- SIMON Mannix has a soft spot for Ireland. Twelve years ago, while outhalf at English club Sale, the former All Black even checked could he be eligible to wear the green. 'There was an approach,' he says, recalling an era when representing a second country was permitted in certain situations.
'It was initially thought there was possible ancestry but unfortunately it went one generation too far back for me to qualify (for Ireland) so that I could have played on the '97 Lions. It was flattering to be asked and that was indicative of how well I was playing.
Brian Ashton was coaching Ireland and Fran Cotton of Sale was Lions manager. We had a little look, but it wasn't something that dragged on and on because we soon found out it wasn't really possible.' Mannix's Emerald interest was piqued long before that brief flirtation, though. As a seven-year-old he rose in the middle of the New Zealand night and cried as the
1978 All Blacks famously lost to Munster in Limerick.
'Those great losses stay with you as a youngster and that's one I clearly remember,' he explains, adding it was a dream to then line out at Thomond Park 22 years later in a friendly with Gloucester.
Crystal clear, too, is his recollection of meeting Ollie Campbell, the doyen of Irish out-halves. 'My father met Ollie on the '83 Lions. I was about 11 and my father got his autograph. I sent Ollie a letter thanking him. He replied and this was my first introduction to an incredible man. He invited me under the tunnel to meet him when they played Wellington and I became just a huge, huge fan of Ollie and of the Irish approach which I came to understand later in life. What a wonderful, wonderful mentality they have.
'Those small things really mark you. I was only a young boy and that memory stays with me today. The autograph and the letter are still at my mother's place in Wellington. What Ollie did was genuinely a wonderful example to all rugby players.
Players in today's game are in a lot of demand - but everybody involved can take some real inspiration from a true gentleman.'
Living in Cork after eight years in Paris, Mannix is sure to catch up with Campbell at some stage but Munster's schedule is currently hectic. Last night's visit to Dublin was the second leg of a three-part itinerary that started in Swansea last weekend and culminates with next Saturday's Heineken Cup opener at Stade de France.
The Kiwi's chuffed he is Munster's new backs coach on a two-year deal. Eager to ensure no time was lost in getting started, he flew to Cape Town in June to discuss philosophies and ideas with fellow newcomer, head coach Rob Penney, who was in South Africa looking after the All Blacks under-20s at the World Cup.
Even now, the mantra is not to waste any chance to enhance their fledgling working relationship, especially when Mannix is Penney's chauffeur on earlymorning spins from Cork to Limerick.
'The phones are usually quiet and we can pretty much exclusively concentrate on the essential thing, which is what we can do together to get the best out of Munster,' he enthuses.
COACHING fascinates the 41-year-old. He abruptly quit playing a decade ago and while his initial route into elite pro coaching was bizarre - a connection with clothing company Eden Park saw him become interpreter at Racing Metro after the coaches, former French internationals Philippe Benetton and Didier Camberabero, signed a pile of English-speaking foreigners - the experience has been hugely satisfying.
'I've actually had a lot more enjoyment, a lot more pleasure out of coaching than playing,' he hints, reflecting on his career which took off while juggling the coaching of a Division Four side with an assistant's role at Racing when they were in PRO D2.
Munster have banked on him to deliver in tandem with Penney. Bereft of so many familiar faces who've either retired or left, they're a club in transition. Youth abounds, but fulfilling potential is a task the New Zealander seems equipped to handle given the lessons of his ordeal as a young All Black who was too immature to cope with the pressure he put himself under.
That trauma still exercises him.
However, whereas for a long while he refused to come to terms with what actually happened, it now inspires him in nurturing the Munster talent at his disposal.
'My All Black career should have been longer,' he states.
'I must have been a player with an awful lot of talent because I was picked to sit on the bench as an 18-year-old against Australia in 1990, but I got fired into an environment where I put too much pressure on myself.
'Looking back on it as a coach, I'd never make that mistake with a young player. I only realised years after I'd left New Zealand, but it weighed far too heavily on me, as did the weight of the losses.
'I played nine games for the All Blacks and the first we lost in Toulon against a French selection in 1990, I felt I was to blame entirely as I missed kicks at goal.
'Would I pick a 19-year-old today to play Heineken Cup in Toulon? The answer is no. It's a hell of an environment to play in, let alone be a 19-year-old playing for the All Blacks, which is another step up.
'In a way I muddled through those years and, unfortunately, the talent couldn't hide the mental fragility year-old got from those ces. The scars ran very a long, long time before I y basically that was an *** up.
'That was a lesson i learned late on. one reason why i left new Zealand in '96 was because of the pressure, this idea of being the complete failure, letting down the whole country - that was something i had placed on myself and i couldn't handle it. To me, it was a failure.
'A lot of people say, "Well, at least you played for the All Blacks". But i always remember Wayne Shelford said, "it's one thing being picked, it's another thing being a good All Black". That's where i'm at today. i was picked. Played nine games but i certainly wasn't a good All Black and didn't do justice to what the jersey means.
'That's something i've got to live with. it's no regret but a hell of a lot of learning came out of it for me and probably for many people who saw what happened to a young player and now make sure those mistakes don't happen again.
'it has helped me a lot (as a coach), but it took an awful long time to get there. I could never watch (the All Blacks), couldn't ever talk of those experiences until well into 2003 or 2004, so we're talking 13 years of pain that I couldn't front up to, that I tried to hide.
'At least learning came out of it for me at the end. From a human side, that's the important thing. Am I well-placed today with the younger players? Yeah, I'm reasonably well-placed,' he continues, adding his peace of mind over his unfilled Test career was further soothed in recent years by Graham Henry allowing him on three separate occasions to spend a week in the European off-season monitoring the coaching of the All Blacks.
'One of the lessons is the word honesty comes out as a coach.
In any sport we've got to be honest with our players, honest with everything.
The players don't want to hear the excuse you're being rested this week or whatever.
'When the time comes for a tough conversation with a player, I'm more than comfortable to have that because I know they'll respect you more for it rather than me feeding them a load of crap.' What isn't crap either is facing the now money-rich Racing Metro in the Heineken Cup next weekend.
Mannix's exit from the Top 14 heavyweights last winter was controversial, but hard feelings haven't festered. 'It will be a very quiet and discreet Simon Mannix going back there, I can promise you that,' he stresses.
'What happened last season isn't something I've spoken about openly. It's just one of those things. It was unfortunate but at the same time I was in the comfortable situation of being released with another 18 months to run on my contract.
'I've absolutely no bitterness towards Racing. I've spent many good years there and had great moments, but one door closes and I've certainly had a wonderful opportunity opened up (at Munster).
There are great players and a tremendous attitude here.
'If we can draw the maximum amount of effort from them you've got to think we're going to be in a reasonable place towards the end of the season. What we've seen so far is very encouraging but there's still a long way to go.'
The pain ran very deep for a long time before I could say that was an absolute f*** up
Seas suas agus troid!
so any thoughts on our new backs coach after two heineken cup games?. for me while there were encouraging signs earlier in the league but the last 3 games have been a dissapointement to me. We are too predictableand our play is too lateral,we owned the ball for the whole first half and showed little invention indeed if we had been playing a better team than edinburgh we would have been picked off easy enough . Conor Murray needs to add a break to his game,our set play is too easy to defend as evidenced by our play in the first half. our support running and decoy runners were non existent at times,off loading poor also although we did improve in the second half as edinburgh tired.
That would be the Conor Murray who scored a try with a break, yes? The break you want him to add, yes...?
Vorsprung durch Pfennig.
I think from what Penney said, what is happening is not what they're being coached to do. The hangover of McGahanball is still there in that the skills seem to come out wrong. From what Penney said about attacking space not width I can see what he's aiming at. The problem is the players seem to be trying to play too much passing rugby. Interestingly it's the one thing I think Keatley is getting right, he's playing the space around him not just shifting it out. Forwhatever reason though we seem to struggle to understand that space comes from the build up to it not just lobbing it out. A few of comparisons.
- Zebo's try last week, he saw a gap and attacked it. Too often with some of the other players that ball would have been shunted out so the last man could be easily shepherded into touch.
- This week, POM tries to just offload to the "wing" without thinking about what was going on. Poor pass but even if POC had got it he was going nowhere.
Two more comparisons, from today's game.
- DOC got the ball, had the momentum and just shunted it to Dougall, who appeared to be coming to support the drive not take the ball. Move dies.
- Downey, by contrast, took the ball, saw the space outside, saw the man next to him wasn't the answer and floated a nice, well skilled pass that DOC butchered. Right move, used the ball to exploit where the space was. The old saying the ball will always beat the man.
When we play heads up rugby we are very good, the problem is I don't think some of the players get that what is wanted from them is to try to do the right thing not just try to do the running thing.
\"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"
I dont think you have the players to play an expansive wide game. Your strength is in the forwards. You have good strike runners in Earls, Zebo and Howlett. So you should use them when you hit the 22.
Connacht Rugby
"Live to win. Born to lose"
that's where I'm going with this, work to create a space/chance for those guys.
\"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"
exactly leave the globetrotters stuff to the all blacks. Very few club sides outside a couple of french teams that can play like this
Connacht Rugby
"Live to win. Born to lose"
sorry to interrupt but isnt it also a good idea to have a plan B option or to have backs be able to create space for and by themselfs, if for no other reason than just to mix it up or confuse the opposition ?
The Munster way has always been to knock the "Lard" out of the opposition first, The other stuff follows,
THE IRISH WOULD HAVE RULED THE WORLD, IF THEY NEVER INVENTED THE PUB
the thing is playing the way suggested is almost impossible to handle when done well, hence why NZ, for example, function so well.
\"A million monkeys with a million crayons would be hard-pressed in a million years to create anything as cretinous as Battlefield Earth.\"
Former Racing Métro backs coach Simon Mannix has alleged that Fijians at the Parisian club were paid to be unavailable for the 2011 World Cup so they could play in the Top 14 instead.
Clubs are required to release players during international windows and for major tournaments such as the World Cup and IRB Regulation 9 forbids clubs from offering players incentives, either through "contract or conduct", to turn down a national call up.
Former All Black fly-half and current Munster backs coach Mannix, who was part of the Racing staff from 2006 until he was fired last November, has accused the big-spending French club of using its deep pockets to keep some players in Paris last year.
"Racing Métro had Fijians who declined to go to the World Cup ... because the club gave them a cheque if they stayed here [in Paris]," Mannix toldThe Independent.
ohh boy .. that was pretty much an open secret and for more than just fiji & the players at Racing. There's been consistent rumours that the non-6Nations players weren't being released by their clubs for far more than RWC's. And it's a rumour that's been mentioned with the English clubs too, though not to anywhere near the same extent as the French clubs.
Plato: \"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.\"
Now that we are at this point of the season what are opinions on Mannix?
As far as I can see the most penetrative we've been is when we play simple and direct ball supported by the forwards. I'm not sure how much we can credit Mannix on this one.
Part of me wouldn't be surprised if his contract wasn't renewed after the 2nd year and Dougie was kept on to fill his shoes. I wonder has his appointment as captain been part of the lead up to this role.
That would assume Mannix has something to teach Howlett. From what I've seen this season, Mannix has been a disaster. The decision to have locks, props and hookers on the wing may be at Penney's instigation, but aside from this have we seen even one innovative backline move? one skip or dummy pass? All our best backline moves have resulted from broken field - e.g. Zebo's try Vs Racing in Paris.
Duchy was a terrible backs coach, and personally, I have seen no discernible improvement with Mannix in terms of gameplan.
Do you have evidence that Mannix is responsible for the gameplan ?
What I meant by that is this. Penney clearly wants locks, props and hookers on the wings to set up miss-matches, as part of his gameplan. I therefore would have thought that the responsibility is upon Mannix to direct the backs punch holes in the defence, along the way, so that it doesn't always end up with DOC getting pulled into touch or Felix Jones throwing into touch!
But what we've seen (when the ball is let out) is largely the same as under the previous coach. The point I make now is the same as then, I'd be blaming the gameplan rather than the backs coach. Proper forward rugby done well, will have a better chance of creating space out wide than continually forcing the ball out the backs when there is no space available, and the opposition know what you're going to do.
100% correct , but then the forwards must release the ball for the backs at the right moment . Time and time again the forwards have pick and go a phase too many and been slowed down chance lost . The second try against RM was a time they got the balance right .
Agreed, but perhaps Penney has a gameplan to develop innovative backline moves, but in ROG he just don't have a 10 with the skillset to execute it - same for McG.
Keats, understandably took 20 odd minutes to get going Vs Racing, but after that the team was positively purring - this may of course have had a lot to do with the 14 men dirt-trackers giving up the ghost.
The problem with going back to basics of drilling holes through the forwards is that we simply haven't had the ball carriers. Remember POC taking ever ball as first receiving, crashing two metres and going to ground for a reset of the same?
The emergence of Killer and POM has been great and even Doc and Ryan have chipped in. Stander and TOD are also great carriers, though I have real doubts whether TOD will ever have the pure strength to break the gainline a la Wally.
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