Leinster 2012/2013

[jeepers]

It depends on what context the conversation is in. If we're talking about the problem of the likes of brad thorn / Nathan hines blocking irish talent coming through, then the idea of moving irish players around for development and game time reasons becomes far more valid. ESPECIALLY in the past 3 years or so, Donnacha Ryan would be far higher skilled, and Ian nagle would be far more powerful now for being with the Leinster conditioning staff and skills coach rather than getting feck all game time and receiving worse coaching.

At a provincial level I totally understand that ou'd be well pissed now, when Donnacha Ryan has come good in the past year and Nagle is reaching the power level he needs to be viable, but the point is that both players could have been in the other provinces for the past 3 years, playing in a position that Leinster has issues in, and come back to munster as better players, and you wouldn't have lost an awful lot (for the sake of pickiness, lets say nagle for the past years, and Donnacha Ryan for the 2 years before last year)

I don't know about that - I think I'd want to learn my trade from training with POC & DOC. Perhaps if Leinster had held onto Brad Thorn they might have got some interest. Dougall (discarded by Ulster) wanted to come to Munster because David Wallace is his idol. Losing Wally & Leamy was a massive blow to Munster on the power stakes in the backrow.

Ryan was a late starter to rugby so he had a bit of catching up to do (he also turned down a Munster contract initially to spend a 4th year in college) so he clearly knows what he wants. Nagle wouldn't be playing much if he was trying to bulk up (if he wasn't injured).

Anyway, Leinster have enough Munster players. 3 at the moment who are regular starters (and all key positions).

[redherring]

SOB & Healy are the only international class so far, the rest like McLaughlin, Ryan & Toner are not much better than anything that any of the other provinces have produced. Ruddock came through the Welsh system (and a bit over-rated).

That's still two more than Munster. POM for me still has a way to go yet. And in all honesty the Leinster academy does look stronger than Munster's at the moment.

[joconnell]

Losing Wally & Leamy was a massive blow to Munster on the power stakes in the backrow.

Yep true, Leamy was never the same after his shoulder operation, wally was always a beast. The main point though is that your previous strength and conditioning coaches after Paul darbyshire weren't able to get your players up to a good enough power level to compete. For the past few years your players have looked smaller and lost the power battles with other sides due to the old regime. Some players naturally have it but the rest can be conditioned. It's gonna be damn exciting over the next few years with your new coaching setup.

[Aussiedub]

I don't know about that - I think I'd want to learn my trade from training with POC & DOC. Perhaps if Leinster had held onto Brad Thorn they might have got some interest. Dougall (discarded by Ulster) wanted to come to Munster because David Wallace is his idol. Losing Wally & Leamy was a massive blow to Munster on the power stakes in the backrow.

Ryan was a late starter to rugby so he had a bit of catching up to do (he also turned down a Munster contract initially to spend a 4th year in college) so he clearly knows what he wants. Nagle wouldn't be playing much if he was trying to bulk up (if he wasn't injured).

Anyway, Leinster have enough Munster players. 3 at the moment who are regular starters (and all key positions).

Well you've got Ronan, Keatley, Downey and Jones from Leinster so fair is fair....

[offshorerules]

I don't know about that - I think I'd want to learn my trade from training with POC & DOC. Perhaps if Leinster had held onto Brad Thorn they might have got some interest. Dougall (discarded by Ulster) wanted to come to Munster because David Wallace is his idol. Losing Wally & Leamy was a massive blow to Munster on the power stakes in the backrow.

Ryan was a late starter to rugby so he had a bit of catching up to do (he also turned down a Munster contract initially to spend a 4th year in college) so he clearly knows what he wants. Nagle wouldn't be playing much if he was trying to bulk up (if he wasn't injured).

Anyway, Leinster have enough Munster players. 3 at the moment who are regular starters (and all key positions).

Ok I will bite. Ross and Reddan. Who's the third? You can hang on to Keatley, Jones and Murphy though.

[Thomond78]

It maybe legally changeable in Europe, but you'd need someone to put in a legal challenge and thats not going to happen. It could happen if the provinces were independently owned.

Oh, and I don't know who is being hysterical about it - if Leinster can bring in a 2nd row that means Munster can keep BJ/get a new NIQ prop. next season. Only wish you'd stop bragging about this great Leinster academy though (which, apart from SOB & Healy, hasn't really produced any one worth mentioning in the forwards and is relying on bringing in players with Irish grannies from the SH).

The action doesn't need to be taken by the province, or even seeking an injunction for a new contract. Player forced to go abroad for less money (including tax rebates, costs of moving, etc.) could take an action for damages of those costs.

[offshorerules]

The action doesn't need to be taken by the province, or even seeking an injunction for a new contract. Player forced to go abroad for less money (including tax rebates, costs of moving, etc.) could take an action for damages of those costs.

With all due respect to your legal prowess T78. Speaking as someone in the legal profession it is quite a leap to get from not being offered a contract to being "forced to go abroad". A leap so big I doubt greatly any court would support such a claim.

[Thomond78]

With all due respect to your legal prowess T78. Speaking as someone in the legal profession it is quite a leap to get from not being offered a contract to being "forced to go abroad". A leap so big I doubt greatly any court would support such a claim.

The NIE policy would go a long way to hanging that hat up. The claim would be that there was a breach of Treaty rights as a result of which damage or loss was caused, and the standard of proof is balance of probabilities. If all you have to do is show that it's more likely than not that there is a policy, in breach of Treaty rights, that means a non-Irish EU citizen cannot be employed in Ireland or that creates a disproportionate restriction on that employment, then that's not that huge a mountain to get over. The costs of moving to find employment as a player would be a simple matter of vouching it. Someone like Hines or Mafi, for example, would have a fair shot at it.

The relevant PAG decision would also be pretty useful in proving it one way or t'other.

[Thomond78]

Did a quick Google on the PAG seeing if I could dig up formal documents on it.

Turned up this on shenanigans with NIQs in blue. From 2005. Plus ça change...

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugb...ng-464313.html

[offshorerules]

[QUOTE=Thomond78;1130939]The NIE policy would go a long way to hanging that hat up. The claim would be that there was a breach of Treaty rights as a result of which damage or loss was caused, and the standard of proof is balance of probabilities. If all you have to do is show that it's more likely than not that there is a policy, in breach of Treaty rights, that means a non-Irish EU citizen cannot be employed in Ireland or that creates a disproportionate restriction on that employment, then that's not that huge a mountain to get over. The costs of moving to find employment as a player would be a simple matter of vouching it. Someone like Hines or Mafi, for example, would have a fair shot at it.

The problem is that it is a single market and Ireland cannot be taken in isolation. If as you would have it you wish to envoke EU law then surely you have to apply all of it. The IRFU did not stop them from earning a living in Ireland they simply did not offer them a contract renewal. Therefore they were forced, as you put it, to move abroad. I prefer to see it that their right to move freely across the borders of the EU without restriction was upheld. In fact currently there are thousands of people emigrating from our shores that are benefitting from this. Something to be thankful for perhaps?

On the other hand pretty much every country's courts across the EU are reluctant to co-join employer and employee where one of the parties is not willing to be joined. Its a kind of handy situation really as it prevents slavery amongst other things.

[Thomond78]

[QUOTE=offshorerules;1130947]

The NIE policy would go a long way to hanging that hat up. The claim would be that there was a breach of Treaty rights as a result of which damage or loss was caused, and the standard of proof is balance of probabilities. If all you have to do is show that it's more likely than not that there is a policy, in breach of Treaty rights, that means a non-Irish EU citizen cannot be employed in Ireland or that creates a disproportionate restriction on that employment, then that's not that huge a mountain to get over. The costs of moving to find employment as a player would be a simple matter of vouching it. Someone like Hines or Mafi, for example, would have a fair shot at it.

The problem is that it is a single market and Ireland cannot be taken in isolation. If as you would have it you wish to envoke EU law then surely you have to apply all of it. The IRFU did not stop them from earning a living in Ireland they simply did not offer them a contract renewal. Therefore they were forced, as you put it, to move abroad. I prefer to see it that their right to move freely across the borders of the EU without restriction was upheld. In fact currently there are thousands of people emigrating from our shores that are benefitting from this. Something to be thankful for perhaps?

On the other hand pretty much every country's courts across the EU are reluctant to co-join employer and employee where one of the parties is not willing to be joined. Its a kind of handy situation really as it prevents slavery amongst other things.

Right, two different issues there. As I said, this isn't about seeking an injunction for a new contract. This is about the damages in being forced to move outside of Ireland. Forcing you to exercise your Treaty rights to free movement is when you don't want to by imposing restrictions here is still a breach of those Treaty rights here and a restriction on continuing to exercise those Treaty rights here, and that's your cause of action. Saying, "well, anyone non-Irish can always move somewhere else" places a barrier on movement to Ireland, and any NIQ caught by that would be able to point to that as a breach of Treaty rights.

Remember, Bosman itself was about contract renewals on less-favourable terms.

[offshorerules]

[QUOTE=Thomond78;1130958]

Right, two different issues there. As I said, this isn't about seeking an injunction for a new contract. This is about the damages in being forced to move outside of Ireland. Forcing you to exercise your Treaty rights to free movement is when you don't want to by imposing restrictions here is still a breach of those Treaty rights here and a restriction on continuing to exercise those Treaty rights here, and that's your cause of action. Saying, "well, anyone non-Irish can always move somewhere else" places a barrier on movement to Ireland, and any NIQ caught by that would be able to point to that as a breach of Treaty rights.

Remember, Bosman itself was about contract renewals on less-favourable terms.

The problem with your argument is though that he wasn't forced to move outside Ireland therefore there can be no damages.

The Bosman case was about free movement. It says anyone (Irish or other) can move anywhere else. You may have a point in emplyment law based on discrimination but you are barking up the wrong tree here.

[Thomond78]

[QUOTE=offshorerules;1130970]

The problem with your argument is though that he wasn't forced to move outside Ireland therefore there can be no damages.

The Bosman case was about free movement. It says anyone (Irish or other) can move anywhere else. You may have a point in emplyment law based on discrimination but you are barking up the wrong tree here.

Bosman says policies aimed at preferring nationals of the specific state are restrictions on the Treaty rights of nationals of any other state and cannot be justified on the basis that it's aimed at developing players for the national team. Paragraphs 116-124 and 130.

BTW - who's the "he" you're referring to?

[Aussiedub]

LEINSTER:
15: David Kearney
14: Andrew Conway
13: Brendan Macken
12: Andrew Goodman
11: Fionn Carr
10: Ian Madigan
9: Isaac Boss
1: Heinke van der Merwe
2: Thomas Sexton
3: Jamie Hagan
4: Damian Browne
5: Devin Toner
6: Rhys Ruddock
7: Shane Jennings CAPTAIN
8: Leo Auva'a
REPLACEMENTS:
16: James Tracy
17: Jack McGrath
18: Martin Moore
19: Ben Marshall
20: Jordi Murphy
21: John Cooney
22: Noel Reid
23: Sam Coghlan-Murray

[i_like_cake]

who are they playing....?

[i_like_cake]

Ospreys away... sunday... got it...

[NotreDameRFC]

Thought conway at fb would be better to see.....am i right in saying that is schools and u20 position?

[LeakyBoots]

Hmmm... Ospreys could do a number on them (depending on who they're missing though)

[barleys chinos]

good to see 13 IQs in the start lineup

[The Spoofer]

good to see 13 IQs in the start lineup

15 last week.

[The Outlaw]

Thought conway at fb would be better to see.....am i right in saying that is schools and u20 position?

More winger at u20.

[Hugonaut]

More winger at u20.

Started all ten of the U20s games in 2010 [as an U19] at fullback. Only started one out of six as a fullback in 2011 [as an U20]. Tiernan O'Halloran, Craig Gilroy and Mikey Sherlock played at FB more often than him that year.

[Dowlinz]

Fionn Carr is the biggest choker in Europe, really feel bad for him watching him butcher so many great chances.

[Thegrif]

10 6 to leinster 30 mins gone
rain bucketing down

Fionn Carr missed a golden chance dropped the ball with the line 5 metres away and no one in front of him

jamie hagan doing very well against Duncan jones in the scrum
looks like he has lost some weight

[Upfront_1979]

Connacht you can have Fionn Carr back anytime you want.

[Upfront_1979]

We are on top but letting the ospreys stay in it with silly penalties.
Great to see Boss back, hes playing very well.

[blackwarrior]

Ruddock getting knocked back a lot today - a bit surprised at that. Leinster beginning to lose the physical exchanges. 16-10 with 15 mins left.

[Valencia]

In the Liberty or the showgrounds?

[Kavy]

In the Liberty or the showgrounds?

Liberty.

[Bosco]

In fairness to Leinster, they have been playing with 13 men for the whole game