Think the 5 second rule is a very good one. It's not dissimilar to the situation when a maul stops moving. The ref makes a judgement call and the SH has to get on with it.
We all have seen plenty of occassions when a SH is fecking around at the base of a ruck to kill time when the ball is clearly available. The ref now has the discretion to make him use it. It's pretty obvious when to call it.
Pleased with all the changes in fact. 23 man squads is a very good call.
.Originally Posted by No. 16
Jeesh. Ok Ok OKAYYY.
I'm open to seeing how it works - I just didn't notice this was such a problem in the sense that it was a time killing tactic all that often. TBH - I didn't get to see many of the non-munster / non-Ireland matches this season - Only a few...
I thought it was just a problem with Munster scrum halves trying to figure out what they were going to do with it when they picked it upToo often leading to bumping into something and dropping the feckin thing!
http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/26949.php
Rolland Summarises Law Trials
IrishRugby.ie caught up with top IRFU international referee Alain Rolland to get his take on the global law trials that come into effect in the northern Hemisphere this month.
Following the annual meeting of their Council held in Dublin during the month of May, the International Rugby Board and its member Unions have sanctioned a global trial of five aspects of law amendments.
Aspects of law approved for trial include limiting the time that the ball is available at the back of a ruck and the positioning of taking a quick lineout throw.
These trials, in addition to some other experimental laws, will commence at the start of next season in each Hemisphere (August 2012 in the north and January 2013 in the south) and will be applicable to both international and domestic competition.
Speaking to IrishRugby.ie in relation to the introduction of these laws, experienced Irish referee Alain Rolland was eager to stress that the five laws that are being experimented upon are only being tried out as things stand, and may not necessarily be followed up on beyond the trial period.
"We've been asked to try these out during the season, and a decision is going to be made as to whether any of them will be used as is," he said.
"They're not written in law right now. These are trials that have been set out by the IRB Council..............
ROLLAND ON THE FIVE GLOBAL LAW AMENDMENTS
Law 16.7 (Ruck): The ball has to be used within five seconds of it being made available at the back of a ruck with a warning from the referee to "use it". Sanction - Scrum.
"They're obviously trying to speed up the game. In effect, once there is static ball at the base of the ruck, and if the half-back doesn't play it away, or whoever is standing in the scrum half position, the referee will give an instruction to whoever is there to play the ball.
"That kicks off the clock, they have five seconds to use it and if they don't, as it's stated, it's a turnover and a scrum for the opposition."
I'll Flake Ya!
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"Be moderate in everything, including moderation." - Horace Porter
The 5 second one will be interesting as it will vary between each ruck and each game and each ref, like everything else I suppose!
As for the "Crouch, Touch, Set" ruling, I can only assume in addition to "Set" being snappier than "Engage" it is also ridding us of the dreaded "Pause" followed by an actual pause and then "Engage". The call will now be "Crouch" (front row, seconds and loosies in) "Touch" (Props extend arms and touch each others shoulders and withdraw arms), "Set" (packs engage as it were, i.e. the hit).
I wonder does the fact that there's been relatively little discussion of this indicate that most rugby people generally welcome the new laws, even if they are only being trialled? The scrum one in particular looks like being a big improvement.
Never mind perception because it isn’t real. It’s only what people think. Go out and make them think something else.
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I like the increased TMO powers being trialled in England and South Africa. Long overdue IMO.
I agree with the poster above that the five second rule will be subjective and probably vary from ref to ref. I wonder how strongly it will be enforced. In football isn't the goalie only supposed to hold the ball for six seconds, but I don't think I've ever seen that pulled up. I suppose it stops teams taking the pi** though when the ball is at the base of a ruck. It's worth a try IMO.
The scrum one was a bit of a no brainier at this stage. We are at the point where something has to be done.
The other ones are ok I think too. Should help prevent the game slowing down in certain situations.
Rugby, for all it's stereotype image (Probably a bit of an old image now I know) of being a game of tradition and old farts etc is very open to change and experimentation to improve the game. Think of all the changes in recent years from the use of subs to the five point try to using technology and many more. Not all have worked I know but I admire the willingness to try things and I'm pretty favourable to this batch of trials.
The English Premiership is introducing a 'concussion bin', as well as the TMO having more input:
Rugby: The Aviva English Premiership will trial the use of a so-called ‘concussion bin’ and extended powers for the television match official in the forthcoming season, it was announced today. Players will be required to leave the field for five minutes to undergo cognitive tests if the team doctor or referee suspects they may have suffered concussion.
If that initial suspicion is confirmed in a pitch-side assessment, the concussed player will not be allowed to return and the temporary substitution will be made a permanent one. The Premiership have also volunteered to trial a greater use of video technology, which extends the TMO’s (Television Match Official) input to more than just the grounding of the ball.
In matches broadcast live on television this season, the referee can ask the TMO to rule on any incident in the lead-up to a try being scored, dating back to the last stoppage in play. The TMO will also have the power to alert the referee on matters of foul play he may have missed. The trials have been developed by the International Rugby Board.
“We volunteered to be involved in both trials,” said Phil Winstanley, rugby director at Premiership Rugby. “The TMO trial in live televised games allows us to maintain the integrity of our competition by ensuring that the match officials are given the utmost support in getting crucial decisions right.
“We are extremely mindful about ensuring that we achieve a balance between protecting the integrity of the game and impacting on the dynamic nature of our sport by creating too many stoppages in play.
“This will be closely managed, with a thorough research programme undertaken by Premiership Rugby and the RFU. The pitch-side concussion assessment trial allows medical teams more time and a better environment to assess head injuries and to make player-centred decisions.
“We have a reputation for innovation and this is another example of how both Premiership Rugby and the (English) RFU is the forefront of the game’s development.”
The concussion protocol was developed by an IRB working group, who were tasked with enhancing player safety without undermining the fabric of the game. Rugby already operates a ‘blood bin’ system, allowing players to be temporarily replaced to have a cut dealt with.
But following the fake blood saga at Harlequins, the IRB wanted to ensure the concussion system was “not open to tactical manipulation by coaches”. Dr Simon Kemp, the English RFU’s head of sports medicine, said: “Being able to temporarily remove the player from the field will allow medical practitioners to perform a more sophisticated assessment than presently and better decisions to be made.”
The TMO’s extended powers will first come into force in the London double-header at Twickenham on Saturday September 1st, with both games being broadcast live on ESPN. The referee can ask the TMO, in addition to his previous powers, to adjudicate on any incident between the last restart and the scoring of a try.
Ed Morrison, the English RFU’s head of professional referee development, said: “The modern game is fast-paced and action-packed and it is important that our officials are equipped with the best tools to ensure that sometimes critical incidents are observed and acted upon.
“The referee is in charge of the game but to be able to draw on the TMO in such circumstances will help us maintain the high standards of officiating that we have in the Aviva Premiership.”
http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rug...322515511.html
Trust is good; control is better. V I Lenin.
That's quite a substantial change. Hopefuly it is implemented equitably and transparently. It does have the potential to eradicate the behing the refs back stuff and may influence decisions with the benefit of slo-mo replay? "Did the puch make forceful impact with the chin or was it handbags?" ;-)
what was the story with nigel owens today in the aus v nz game, he was still playing the old rules for the scrum, crouch touch pause engage???
Played first game under the new laws today, all ran fine but took players a while to get used to new scrum engage. Came on at tight head myself and forgot about new set up for firt scrum myself.
No collapsed scums, 2 reset and 2 free kicks for early engage and i believe 1 of those free's may have been the ref's mistake(though not the one I gave away).
No worrie with 5 second ruck law, 5 seconds is an age.
Layman's question Nuke, under the old laws, with the pause, did it give you a chance to line up and preplan slipping the hit or deliberately bringing it down?
We all know that front rows decide to hit the deck when they're under the kosh, might the quicker law reduce the amount of preplanned flopping?
Also, is it hard to send it down once the hit has occurred and pure scrummaging is going on? Botha let's his toes go from under him and lands on his belly as an example.
I am the million man.
Not really, you really work that out before the crouch as you need to set your feet an body position for what you need to do.
Most technical props can change a lot of the set up on the fly anyway but as this was junior Div 2 V, Div 3 in the cup there wasn't a huge amount of technique on display.....well for today anyway.
i was told that was my function - out scrummage the opposition so we can bring on the younger, less technical props with a better open game. Rolling subs is great for players like me to add to a team
According to the article above, the trial period begins in January 2013 for the southern hemisphere competitions
So, teams now have 90 seconds from the time a try is scored, to take a conversion.
Your team is playing in the QF of [Insert Cup competition name here] and leads 10-6 with 78 mins gone. The opposition score a try to take the lead 10-11, and there is 1 min 25 secs left on the clock. Game over!
Whatever about a Junior Cup match with 50 spectators (it's a nice day!) - can you imagine this happening in the HEC, or the 6N? It could be very interesting!
Trust is good; control is better. V I Lenin.
IIRC, this was originally mooted back in 2003 as a result of the Argentinian outhalf Gonzalo Queseda's antics. He used to take an age and a half to kick a conversion, used to have to wash the tee first and all.
irishtimes.com - Last Updated: Friday, January 11, 2013, 13:52
TMO's remit to grow next season
Rugby: Television match officials will have be asked to rule on incidents of potential foul play and the build-up to tries from next season, according to the International Rugby Board.
The TMO was hitherto restricted to ruling solely on phases of play involving tries, but their remit will grow from next season after a global trial, in both club and international rugby, was approved by the IRB and its member unions.
The referee will be able to consult the TMO on “up to two phases (rucks or mauls) before the ball is grounded in the act of scoring”, while he “may also call on the TMO to advise on incidents of possible foul play”, according to an IRB release this afternoon.
The decision follows trials of “extended TMO protocol variants” in England's Aviva Premiership and South Africa's Absa Currie Cup. Both were deemed “highly successful” by the independent IRB Laws Representative Group (LRG), but the Currie Cup protocol was preferred.
"It was a difficult task for the Laws Representative Group to determine which variation of the protocol should go forward for global trial as both had significant merits and both have been embraced by match officials, coaches and players," said IRB rugby committee chairman Graham Mourie.
"However, after extensive analysis, the group felt that the Currie Cup variant which encapsulates two prior phases of play without a major time impact is sufficient to address match-affecting incidents that are currently not captured by the TMO protocol as it appears in Law."
"We have a clear way forward and it is now important that we educate our match officials to ensure excessive recourse to the TMO must be avoided for the sake of continuity and, to that end, match officials will be reminded of that and assessed accordingly."
IRB chairman Bernard Lapasset added: "Rugby continues to evolve and innovate and there is no doubt that rugby referees have one of the toughest officiating roles in sport. We are committed to ensuring that they have all the tools they require from conditioning, management and technology to ensure that they can perform to the highest possible standards."
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I don't see any reason not to welcome this. However, one question I have is let's say I'm captain of team X and I see someone from team Y foul one of my teammates, but none of the 3 referees seems to have seen it. Can I ask the Ref to go to the TMO? Sort of like the "challenge" in NFL or Tennis?
Does the match clock not stop?
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
Not after a try.
“We’re in this mess, not because Fianna Fail policies have failed, but because they have succeeded.” They haven't gone away, you know"
As Rollie put it,
"I can't foresee it as being a major issue. Now that they've put it in that there is an allocated time, if a player wants to take his full minute and 30 seconds, we cannot make him go any faster than that."
"So, if there is 78 minutes and 30 seconds on the clock he can stand there and let it run to 80 and take the kick. That's the other side."
http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/26949.php
Once a penalty kick, free kick, scrum, line-out or in this case conversion is awarded before 80:00, play continues until the ball goes out of play. Except, of course, if another penalty or free kick is awarded in which case play continues again until the ball goes dead.
“We’re in this mess, not because Fianna Fail policies have failed, but because they have succeeded.” They haven't gone away, you know"
Apologies Piquet, I see you may be responding to my post that I deleted. I misinterpreted Blindsider's interpretation of the scenario, deleted the post and replaced it with the one above. Lads, Piquet has not gone loopy. He is just responding to a moot and disappeared point. ;-)
I didn't know Point was moot?
I realised I was dyslexic when I went to a toga party dressed as a goat
Point is a Tolkien fan?
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