But that applies in all countries, because, by definition, the pond for international selection is smaller than that for club level. You just have to be better than the next-best guy in that slot in that country to be picked for national duty on the basis that you are the best available in that slot in that country.Originally Posted by The Outlaw
Vorsprung durch Pfennig.
Tut, tut, Jackie - you have all your lads fit, you are HEC finalists, you were at home and you only just barely squeezed past us!! Bring on 29th December and we'll have a better handle on things. Let's face it - we are writing off Pro12 this year, in the longer term interest.
Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch! "Not only is it not right, it's not even wrong!"[Wolfgang Pauli]
That seems pretty clear to me.
Our players are failing at international level because they're not being made to compete for their provincial places.
So you're either moving the goal posts, or you've managed to confuse even yourself with your incoherence.
You've a nerve insulting anyone, to be honest.
Bluff away anyway. One more overdue for the ignore list.
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
Three defeats already this season. Looked a rabble at times again last night
Penney out.
How pray tell, is persisting with a completely out of form 35/36 year old oh in our long term interest?
Everyone should calm the fcuk down. Penney's team was doing fine til Coughlin And Ronan got injured. If you haven't noticed how important it is that the back row frontliners stay fit then you can't have been watching Munster for the past three years.
For the over the hill and the past-it, nothing is impossible.
You know this week will probably give us the biggest indication so far of how much an influence central contracting has on selection. If ROG gets the call then it is pretty clear that his cc is getting him that call. If Keatley gets the call then fair enough, Penney has had the freedom to make it.
And you've some nerve to talk about incoherence with the quality of your posting on this thread. You again totally fail to see my point no doubt deliberately. Yes there have been players who've probably not been put under enough pressure for their places at provincial level. D'arcy, Heaslip,DO'C spring to mind last season. Kept places when maybe they shouldn't considering that there were decent options in their places.
Anyway you seem to have some anger issues so please do me a favour and put me on ignore. And even if you don't please try not to bother me with your tedious replies.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again (like picking Gordon D'Arcy) and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein
Sin binned.
I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody - Bill Cosby
Was there on Saturday very disappointing for sure but as I said after our first game of the season we are going to have good nights and bad nights.I feel due to the staggering of players comebacks and a few unfortunate injuries things have been a little disjointed for Penney. Dont forget he has only been in the job a short while he needs to see the players in "battle" for himself so to speak. had he had all of his players available to him on day one I think we would be further down the road fact is he didn't.
Personally not over worried as yet, this was always going to take a bit of time but if we can stay in the Heino I really think we will be in with a great shout in April and May as we settle. I would be more than a little surprised if ROG starts on Saturday as this is becoming a must win game from a confidence aspect. At the end fo the season we can judge at the moment give the man a chance - I think he is doing ok.
I am one of the 5 clowns woo hoo
In the longer term interest of Declan Kidney's Irish contract?
Fair dues to ye, that's truly patriotic. The late Bozo would be very proud of ye!
Aaaaah, who let the Soccer fan in?
In all seriousness, I think the last few weeks should really have left us with no doubt as to what we are at the moment. A team in transition, big time.
We had a great start but I still reckon Penny will need at least 14 months, from when he started, to get a team molded in his image, and there should really be no questioning the man for now*. Any success this season is a bonus.
*Except on the ROG decisions, I would agree with other posters calling for Keatley to be given his shot at Racing. When Downey and he took to the field on Saturday there was a palpable change in the team dynamic.
Last edited by Weetabix; 8th-October-2012 at 09:30.
If we were in transition players like Barnes would be getting game time. The fact is we have the likes of Kieth and Casey competing for the 13 spot and should Downey get injured , Penney has been trying out Casey at 12 to cover. When you have seasoned internationals fighting for positions its not transition. The only youngster who has been getting any bit of game time is young Luke O'D. The one thing Im baffled by is why we are not developing in the centres. Players like Barnes and Dineen should be next to the likes of either Lualala or Downey learning the trade. We have traditionally had great packs but always scratch our heads when we cant produce backs. I can see it now, in 2 years Lala and Downey gone and no replacement. Maybe certain positions in transition (Rog & Keatley) but certainly not the team.
You talking about age-wise? Or Position-wise?
And to say we're not in transition is silly imo, and the sooner more people accept we're in transition the better.
Dineen was sick for a while, he had been making squads up til then.
Barnes got some time for us at 12, iirc, and is now playing 12 for Dolphin. I suppose we'll know more when the A team is named later this week.
It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.
Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win
Both. And just because I don't agree with you dosen't make me silly. Lets look at the back line .
9. Connor Murray (transitioned already, an international)
10. Keatley & Rog (postional transition with form being the deciding factor)
11. Simon Zebo/Murphy - same as Murray(SZ) and seasoned(JM )
12. Downey - seasoned vet
13. Laulala & Earls - seasoned vet & international respectively
14. Howlett - seasoned international
15. Any one of the following - Earls, Hurley, Jones
Hardly in transition?
I'd say when you can't be sure of who your best backline is and have 2 likely starters new arrivals, you are in transition as team
it's more glaring upfront, especially in the backrow.
for mine anyway, starting backline should be murray, keatley, zebo, downey, laulala, howlett earls
Hey, it's the internet! I was generalising when I said silly, not you in particular, I mean I just find it silly to say we're not in transition.
For me
9 - all ok
10 - passing from old hand to youngish buck = transition
11 - all ok here too
12 - new player in Downey = transition
13 - new player in Lualala = transition OR new partnership of DOwney/Lualala @ 12 with Earls @ 13 = transition
14 - all ok here too
15 - Hurley is the incumbent but, only in IMO, hasn't made the jersey his own, and alternatives to come in and get a run = transition.
But that's all just my own opinion.
My original point was just to say I think silly over reactions are pointless at this stage in the season and everyone should judge Penney and his decisions at end of season.
I suppose we had better define 'transition'. I thought it meant something along the lines of 'rebuilding' . Or the younger players being developed or 'transitioned' in to take over from an older generation of players in their twilight. I wouldn't consider Downey a player in transition being so experienced. He is the finished article and just has to follow a game plan according to a coaches philosophy.
In my view It's the team that is being rebuilt and therefore the team is in transition, eldest member of the BR 23, 2 new centres, new LHP, a few other players in only their second full season, a new head coach a new backs coach. smells like transition to me....
I think it's worth remember we've played what will probably be the three toughest away games in the league, admittedly we lost them but they are done now. It's all well and good to try young players but reading the article posted about Simon Mannix shows how risky it can be. Personally I'd like to see O'Dea (for example) tried at fullback but I've nothing to lose if it goes badly wrong. On the otherhand, it could be loss for Munster and big career set-back for O'Dea.
We'll know more by April, I really think there's nothing for it but to watch it unfold.
It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into.
Every plan I have is the best plan in the room. Everybody get quiet and listen to it, and everybody will win
The backline doesn't matter if you haven't got the pack right an Penney can't do that until he has at least Ronan and Coughlin back. Add Stander and Paulie and suddenly Munster are transformed.
Mark
My
Words
For the over the hill and the past-it, nothing is impossible.
i Hope so but that doesn't mean we shouldn't maximise our selection options in the backs
You ignoring the elephant in the room? We started with a different FH in the last 2 games, and frankly looked just as bad as in some of our worst games last season. Now we don't know the reason RoG was started, but he is a centrally contracted player, and one whose form has really plummeted this year. I really don't care about his age, but I do worry about the way he is playing and the fact that he is keeping a good, in-form FH off the team.
It was noticable during the O's game and looking back at the Ravenhill game, we might have snatched that with Keatley pulling the strings instead of RoG opting not to try a DG. Nevermind; it was this weeks first 60 that brought all sorts of nightmares coming back. We just looked so far off it in attack and defence; cue 60 minutes (+ swap for Keatley) and we look a different team. With a better ref we might even have snatched a game we were way out of for an hour.
We are a totally different team with Keatley playing - let's just hope there isn't another agenda here and that Penney will be allowed pick his best XV for the Paris game. BTW, I do go with the notion that competition in Munster for places would strengthen the Irish team too.
Why wait until the season is over? I'd rather comment on his actions (including selections and tactics) on each game he runs. Until 2 weeks ago RP seemed to be making all the right calls; 2 weeks ago he got a few things wrong, this past game was arguably worse.
Of the back positions - he changed 10 & 12 (& 13) with relative success for the first few games. He reverted to a long-serving player at FH and moved an OC to IC to make way for an established OC. To me that's not transition, it's tinkering with the basics and it imploded as a result.
Whatever about transition, I want to see us evolving. Part of that is getting back to playing winning rugby and the last 2 games hinted more at the 'style' of last season. I don't want to see another season lost because nobody shouted stop - we have had a history of not making the right calls until too late to do anything about it (Cooder, McGahan). We've just lost another game we could have won; don't want to see this trend continuing. Just don't want another season wasted.
[QUOTE=99_oK?;1119975]Why wait until the season is over? I'd rather comment on his actions (including selections and tactics) on each game he runs. Until 2 weeks ago RP seemed to be making all the right calls; 2 weeks ago he got a few things wrong, this past game was arguably worse.
Of the back positions - he changed 10 & 12 (& 13) with relative success for the first few games. He reverted to a long-serving player at FH and moved an OC to IC to make way for an established OC. To me that's not transition, it's tinkering with the basics and it imploded as a result.
Yes, can't see much logic in alot of these decisions. You have mentioned the players playing, but what about the players not playing? Like Ivan Dineen, benching and getting a fair amount of game time in the first 3/4 games then the Heinekin squad announced and no sign of Dineen. JJ seemingly jumping Deasy(what did Deasey do? other than not be given an opportunity?) and Barnes who had more game time than most last season, showed some promise and only having a 10 min run so far this season?, and on the HC squad. Can't for the life of me figure alot of this out. Go figure.
is any comment necessary? I heard and read the same things. It's very obviously ********. He is pursuing a vision with an inflexibility that would make the Taliban blush.
He mentioned "soul searching" in his post match interview, I really hope that was genuine.
Im still happy with Penney and glad we've got him. They are having to learn a new way. It takes time and may feel like going backwards, but ultimately its the future. I wasnt happy with them loosing the ball in that scrum near the line in the last 10 minutes. Maybe Axel needs to think about things too.
You just cant break playing habits of 30+ year olds. Players younger than this will adapt alot quicker to heads up footy. Downey is sooooooooo limited its not funny, and caseys not far behind him.
Look at some of the displays this season.
Scarlets at home, tonight, Metro away, Leinster away - have we seen any improvement whatsoever? Expansive game = picking the same players in the same positions and throwing the ball wide for the sake of it.
He talks a great game but performances like tonight are becoming more and more common and even harder to stomach. Mannix has been a disaster too.
Still time to salvage the season and I reckon we'll get the 5 points next weekend. But major question marks exist over Penney. Some of those players picked tonight are just not good enough. Sport is cruel but hard decisions need to be made and certain lads need to be let go at the end of the season.
You could add the Connacht game to that where, but for an iffy penalty try and, more importantly, Naopu's incompetence, Munster would have been beaten.
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