Age Grade Interpros 2012/2013

[Cantillon]

I think you may find , in Leinster anyway, that clubs are perhaps seen as being for children of a lesser God, and they do not intend to have their squads damaged playing matches that don't matter (to them) against clubs. What does it matter if Blackrock beat Naas for nothing, when what only matters in schools rugby is the SCT. The kids know what the schools want, and the peer pressure is always there.

If I was still involved in Club rugby, I think we would be trying to build bridges to schools players. if you look at the Leinster U19, I think, or maybe the U20, about a third of the squad seem to be from Lansdowne. Now that is a good club, but there is no way in hell they could be supplying a third of the squad. Somebody, somewhere , has squared that away.

[ormond lad]

I think you may find , in Leinster anyway, that clubs are perhaps seen as being for children of a lesser God, and they do not intend to have their squads damaged playing matches that don't matter (to them) against clubs. What does it matter if Blackrock beat Naas for nothing, when what only matters in schools rugby is the SCT. The kids know what the schools want, and the peer pressure is always there.

If I was still involved in Club rugby, I think we would be trying to build bridges to schools players. if you look at the Leinster U19, I think, or maybe the U20, about a third of the squad seem to be from Lansdowne. Now that is a good club, but there is no way in hell they could be supplying a third of the squad. Somebody, somewhere , has squared that away.

There is a lot in leinster squads from clubs like lansdowne and in munster squads from clubs like garryowen and cork con as they court players who leave the schools and go away to college in the various citys
And that kind of thinking where its win the senior cup or nothing is wrong and has to change.
In many ways it is the same in Munster where players from the youths system are seen as, in your words, "children of a lesser God".
While you do have to build bridges to those who are in schools it is also vital for clubs to have their own underage set up as if your senior team doesnt do well for a few years you are less likely to attract players coming out of the schools and if you dont have an underage set up of any kind and are not attracting players from the schools you are fecked in many ways

[TokyoCrusaders92]

I'm involved with both club & regional setups in Leinster and if I was to be honest, the clubs cant compete with the schools for player development. Clongowes train 4 - 5 times a week, have a gym on site for pre-breakfast session and may do additional skills work also. Warm weather training camp in Portugal in January etc.. I had 10 lads from a team I coached make one of the regional squads but getting 1 session a week (sometime 1 every 2 weeks) and playing for what was a very poorly coached club team meant they saw little progress... Clongowes is the closest we have to a rugby academy where potential players can play full-time rugby while getting an education. If I was asked by a player who had the opportunity to go there I would have to recommed he do so... I see a number of recent outstanding youth players have also moved school to Clongowes....

[Papa Bear]

There is a new system in place in Munster and we need to give it a chance. With regards this discussion, a couple of things I would like to look out for this time next year...

1. With the youths and schools players at under18 level being worked with properly this season, we should expect an increase (maybe small initially) on the number of youths in the 19's squad. This years squad is a reflection on past systems which have not worked. Obviously factors will come into play such as is it a good crop or not so if the youths do well in the interpros it should indicate a good crop. From what I have seen, next years youths are very strong.

2. Shannon will go on a recruitment drive to bring in schools players(as they should), how many of this years 19's squad will make their 21's next year. Will give an indication to where these players were really at and if they were good enough. Making an impact at 21's for these lads and standing out is the only real indicator to whether or not these guys were hard done by. Only way to really answer this gripe you have OL.

[ormond lad]

I'm involved with both club & regional setups in Leinster and if I was to be honest, the clubs cant compete with the schools for player development. Clongowes train 4 - 5 times a week, have a gym on site for pre-breakfast session and may do additional skills work also. Warm weather training camp in Portugal in January etc.. I had 10 lads from a team I coached make one of the regional squads but getting 1 session a week (sometime 1 every 2 weeks) and playing for what was a very poorly coached club team meant they saw little progress... Clongowes is the closest we have to a rugby academy where potential players can play full-time rugby while getting an education. If I was asked by a player who had the opportunity to go there I would have to recommed he do so... I see a number of recent outstanding youth players have also moved school to Clongowes....

In many ways the clubs cant compete with the schools but if you have a talented player in a club who is a potential pro it doesnt send out the right message if there is people saying you will not make it unless you attend "XXX" school next year.

There is a new system in place in Munster and we need to give it a chance. With regards this discussion, a couple of things I would like to look out for this time next year...

1. With the youths and schools players at under18 level being worked with properly this season, we should expect an increase (maybe small initially) on the number of youths in the 19's squad. This years squad is a reflection on past systems which have not worked. Obviously factors will come into play such as is it a good crop or not so if the youths do well in the interpros it should indicate a good crop. From what I have seen, next years youths are very strong.

2. Shannon will go on a recruitment drive to bring in schools players(as they should), how many of this years 19's squad will make their 21's next year. Will give an indication to where these players were really at and if they were good enough. Making an impact at 21's for these lads and standing out is the only real indicator to whether or not these guys were hard done by. Only way to really answer this gripe you have OL.

The talent camp in rockwell does need to be given its chance and only after the final youths interpro in october and all the results can this year be compared to previous years and then when all the national underage squads are named and munsters representation in these squads is known can comparisons be made to previous years.
Shannon may go on an look for plenty of players to play with their u21s this season but they dont really need many players. They have a very strong 19s squad and their all ireland champions combined with the shannon players who were schools tied the past few years they dont exactly need to go on a recruitment drive.

[John's Garden]

Have been reading the thread for a while I must say that OL has been making a great deal of sense. Here is my tuppence worth.

1. It's all well and good that players are identified at 15/16 years of age but there must be a route for late developers especially front rows.
2. From what I've seen the main difference from schools and youth players is the schools players are probably better conditioned. This is to be expected as they are training 4 to 5 times a week. However, their skill levels are not.
3. The ethos of the club teams is also different in the fact that they play a more open 15 man game. Schools rugby is very negative. This is from the fact that its all or nothing when it comes the the Senior cup.
4. Munster schools and Leinster schools can not be compared especially the Limerick schools. The vast majority of Leinster schools are fee paying and therefore have the resources to have the extras. There are no fee paying schools in Limerick and their resources are therfore not as good.
5. There is a growing trend at schools were Leaving cert students are not making themselves available for the SCT because of the commitment. This is a consequence from the points requirements. Some of these players have looked to play with their clubs but have met resistance when they have looked for releases.
6. The schools in Limerick true colours were shown when it came to the U17 level. Prior to the Pan Munster competition, North Munster players were playing Bowen Shield with their school and U17 club at the same time. However, because of the Pan Munster they petitioned the IRFU and now the schools are permitted to panel players until Christmas. This has meant that the Limerick club teams either can't participate in the Pan Munster or have much weaker teams.

[Papa Bear]

Have been reading the thread for a while I must say that OL has been making a great deal of sense. Here is my tuppence worth.

1. It's all well and good that players are identified at 15/16 years of age but there must be a route for late developers especially front rows
2. From what I've seen the main difference from schools and youth players is the schools players are probably better conditioned. This is to be expected as they are training 4 to 5 times a week. However, their skill levels are not.
3. The ethos of the club teams is also different in the fact that they play a more open 15 man game. Schools rugby is very negative. This is from the fact that its all or nothing when it comes the the Senior cup.
4. Munster schools and Leinster schools can not be compared especially the Limerick schools. The vast majority of Leinster schools are fee paying and therefore have the resources to have the extras. There are no fee paying schools in Limerick and their resources are therfore not as good.
5. There is a growing trend at schools were Leaving cert students are not making themselves available for the SCT because of the commitment. This is a consequence from the points requirements. Some of these players have looked to play with their clubs but have met resistance when they have looked for releases.
6. The schools in Limerick true colours were shown when it came to the U17 level. Prior to the Pan Munster competition, North Munster players were playing Bowen Shield with their school and U17 club at the same time. However, because of the Pan Munster they petitioned the IRFU and now the schools are permitted to panel players until Christmas. This has meant that the Limerick club teams either can't participate in the Pan Munster or have much weaker teams.

Regarding props, I think the branch are doing this in fairness. Cotter is a prime example of a guy being given a chance. John Ryan granted played at underage for Munster but never got an academy contract and was let go. He dominated for UCC at AIL level and got a chance. They watch the AIL closely and players consistent at this level are looked at. Ivan Dineen is another who never got into the academy but got rewarded for doing it at AIL level. Am I right in thinking that Sean Henry is the Connacht hooker who performed well for Bohs and was rewarded with academy(get himself and the shannon guy mixed up). Troy Smith got into the academy playing with Midleton, the third tier of the AIL. These guys running the academy know alot more than we do in fairness and people need to cut them some slack. People are very quick to criticise what most of us know nothing about. Have they really missed out on anyone over the last 4 years. It may just be that we don't have the players.

[ormond lad]

Any more news on warm up fixtures before the interpros?
a Munster u18s side will play Cardiff Blues u18s in august. Notice of fixture on cardiffs site here but doesnt say if its youths or schools or when the game will be played.
Northampton u18s play Leinster u18s on sat august 18th and play Ulster u18s on tues august 28th in franklins gardens

[Stretch]

Is Madigan not involved with the 19s?
JOD was named orig in the 20s squad with Madigan named in the 19s. Has Madigan been promoted to the 20s squad?
All the players in the 19s/20s from youths rugby will have played for Munster Youths and 19s and there is several players who came through the schools in the 19s/20s who had not been in munster squads before.
It is disapointting that there is so few clubs represented in the 19s squad but its good to see that several of the clubs those players are orig from are not all traditionally very strong at youths rugby: kilfeacle, charleville, abbeyfeale, dungarvan and scarriff with player from waterpark, clonmel, crosshaven, youghal and kanturk in the reserve squad.
Youths players/games do not get as much publicity as their school counterparts but as this pan munster round robin with the top 16 or so teams in the province grows and develops further this will change.

Heard John Madigan got bumped to 20s, not sure but you should be able to find out, but is your former clubman Cronan Gleeson, now Shannon involved now in that squad? Personally I would from a club point of view like to see two squads developed all the way to 20s. I know there were two 19s last year and I know they had their reasons for averting away from that, but I wonder would club lads catch up re conditioning and such and just believe that some lads from my club experience can make great strides in those ages.

Fear for 19s at smaller clubs, pan munster great for teams that make it, however think attention needs to be drawn to those that don't, some effort at cup competitions last year left the club game down.

[ormond lad]

Heard John Madigan got bumped to 20s, not sure but you should be able to find out, but is your former clubman Cronan Gleeson, now Shannon involved now in that squad? Personally I would from a club point of view like to see two squads developed all the way to 20s. I know there were two 19s last year and I know they had their reasons for averting away from that, but I wonder would club lads catch up re conditioning and such and just believe that some lads from my club experience can make great strides in those ages.

Fear for 19s at smaller clubs, pan munster great for teams that make it, however think attention needs to be drawn to those that don't, some effort at cup competitions last year left the club game down.

Fair play to JM if he is now involved with 20s.
2 squads up to 19s and then 1 at 20s is fine.
With only 1 19s squad from what ive heard the schools A side had a much bigger turnout and will be stronger than it has been the past few years.
WRT u19 club level there doesnt need to be the regional leagues and groups should be set to minimise travel. For example it might be better if Nenagh are in a group with scarriff, ul bohs, thomond rather than having to go down to waterpark, dungarvan etc.
Maybe keep the regions at the younger ages but not at 19s.
Once the pan munster has started for the top 16 clubs there should be another pan munster competition for the clubs that didnt make the top 16.

[Cantillon]

It can't be an accident that if you take good coaching and a residential environment like Clongowes you can hammer out a good team. Rockwell are a case in point, and Munster have clearly observed this by putting this residential set of summer trainings together for the squads. Blackrock also take as residential some strong Leinster players, even though they may live only a few miles away.

The point about a strong underage set up , made by OL above is exactly right, huge efforts should be made to get hundreds of kids involved from 5 years old forward. There is nothing funnier than watching the kids all run to the ball when they are five, and then those guys are towering over you when they are sixteen.

Well done , whoever decided to do this.

[ormond lad]

Confirmation that the u18 schools side will play London Irish Amateurs u18s in London at end of august.
Game set for august 26th
london-irish-amateur.co.uk

[greenback]

http://www.irishrugby.ie/matchdaytv/...index/id/11760

here is the link to the shannon/malone u19 all irl final for anyone interested

[ormond lad]

Munster youths trained in nenagh today
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/domestic/news/

[Sea_point]

Confirmation that the u18 schools side will play London Irish Amateurs u18s in London at end of august.
Game set for august 26th
london-irish-amateur.co.uk

They're actually down to play their Senior Seconds, Wolfhounds are not an age grade team...

[ormond lad]

They're actually down to play their Senior Seconds, Wolfhounds are not an age grade team...

wolfhounds are an academy side and the LI amateur site says on the wolfhounds page that there is an u19 side. i was wrong with u18s

[Cantillon]

Anybody know any fixtures for the Munster U19 and U20?

[ormond lad]

Anybody know any fixtures for the Munster U19 and U20?

at 20s and 19s going by previous years fixtures we will be home to connacht and ulster and away to leinster. dont know the dates or venues of each game but 19s and 20s are usually the first 3 weekends in september with 20s games usually on friday nights and 19s games on saturday afternoons so games will be sept 7/8, 14/15, 21/22

[ormond lad]

Munster Rugby Interprovincial FixturesMunster U20
Munster v Connacht, Friday, 7th Sept. Musgrave Park, ko 7.30pm
Leinster v Munster, Friday, 14th Sept. Donnybrook, ko 7.30pm
Munster v Ulster, Friday, 21st Sept. Musgrave Park, ko 7.30pm

Munster U19
Ulster v Munster, Saturday, 8th Sept., Ravenhill, ko 4.00pm
Munster v Leinster, Friday, 14th Sept., Garryowen FC, ko 6.30pm
U19 play-offs, Saturday, 29th Sept (details TBA)

Munster U18 Clubs
Munster v Exiles, Saturday, 1st Sept., Thomond Park, ko TBC
Ulster v Munster, Saturday, 29th Sept., venue TBC
Munster v Leinster, Saturday, 6th Oct., Garryowen FC, ko TBC

Munster U18 Schools
Munster v Connacht, Wednesday, 5th Sept., Musgrave Park, ko TBC
Munster v Leinster, Wednesday, 12th Sept., Thomond Park, ko TBC
Ulster v Munster, Saturday, 22nd Sept., venue TBC

Munster ‘A’ Schools
Munster v Leinster, Wednesday, 26th September, Musgrave Park (ko TBC)
Leinster v Munster, Wednesday, 3rd October, Donnybrook, (ko TBC)

Interprovincial Friendly Matches
Munster U20
Munster v Connacht, Thursday, 16th August, Annacotty, ko 5pm
Munster v Italy, Tuesday, 21st August, Musgrave Park, ko 7.30pm
Sale Sharks v Munster, Monday, 27th August, Manchester, 7.30pm
Munster v UL Bohs/Bruff, Friday, 31st August, venue & ko TBC

Munster U19
Exiles U20 v Munster, Friday, 17th August, Reading, London, ko 6.30pm
Exiles U19 v Munster, Sunday, 19th August, Reading, London, ko. 12.00pm
Munster v Connacht, Friday, 31st August, St. Senans, ko 6.30pm

Munster U18 Schools
Munster v Millfield School 1st, Saturday, 18th August, UL, ko TBC
Munster v Languedoc, Tuesday, 21st August, Cashel RFC, ko 3.00pm
London Irish v Munster, Sunday, 26th August, Sunbury, ko TBC

Munster U18 Clubs
Munster v Millfield School 2nd, Saturday, 18th August, UL, ko TBC

Munster U17 Development Squad Friendly
Munster v Millfield School 3rd, Saturday, 18th August, UL ko TBC

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/domestic/...medium=twitter

[Cantillon]

Many thanks ormond lad

[TokyoCrusaders92]

Inter pro semifinals and finals set for Jan 12 & 19

R.

[ormond lad]

Inter pro semifinals and finals set for Jan 12 & 19

R.

TC92
Why did they decide to go back to interpro semis and finals?
Havent had them for a couple of years at youths level and are all the provinces playing each other as theres no game v connacht for munster in the youths

[TokyoCrusaders92]

Hi OL,
Not 100% sure, I just have the youth calendar for the season but think it was to give the youths some games before the 6 nations / to help in selection. AFAIK, due to Easter schedule the youth team is representing Ireland at the FIRA comp. this season. My (Leinster) calendar has Ulster 22nd/9 (H), / Connaught 29th (H), Munster 6th (A) and the the SF / Final in for 12th / 19th Jan...

R.

[ormond lad]

Great to see the youths back in the FIRA-AER comp.
Below is an article on Brian Haugh and the 20s side
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/domestic/news/10660.php

[ormond lad]

Below article is u20s and former PBC backrow John Fitzgerald
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/domestic/news/10662.php
Heard yesterday that Mick Kennedy is involved with munster youths as scrummaging/forwards coach.

[ormond lad]

Munster Youths play Cardiff Blues u18 in Cardiff Saturday and Ospreys u18s in CIT friday week at 3pm
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/domestic/news/10666.php

[shannonkiiid]

I remember speaking to a successful schools coach last year , and they told me they had just short of 120 training sessions between the school getting back together and the SCT, that translates to training/playing every day Monday through Friday. Apart from that they had gym sessions etc that the squad were meant to apply themselves to when they were not at school, and they got together in their breaks as well. I would be interested in seeing some schools/club games to see what the comparative standard would be.

I think you have to trust the coaches to make the calls. Again I think it would be bizarre if all the decent players were not known to the coaches. The Leinster contacts I have tell me at club and schools the ruler is forever being run over the players and I know one club where about a third of all the players in one year have had a run out at camps/trials and matches.

As a matter of interest who was the coach that you were talking to? sounds like a fairly serious programme.

[shannonkiiid]

Below article is u20s and former PBC backrow John Fitzgerald
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/domestic/news/10662.php
Heard yesterday that Mick Kennedy is involved with munster youths as scrummaging/forwards coach.

who is Mick Kennedy?

[ormond lad]

who is Mick Kennedy?

From Nenagh, former club captain. played AIL 1 with Garryowen last season. is coaching in nenagh this season

[ormond lad]

Just looked at youths squad that was orig named in may and compared it to squad announced today. 3 or 4 names from squad named in may not there now. presume they're now in A schools and now inelgible for youths?
and consequently there is 3 or 4 named in squad who were not named in orig squad who have been promoted to the squad as a result