Does that make every other guy who gets on with ROG to be bluffers as well? (i.e., is ROG's good pal Brian O'Driscoll also a bluffer?)Originally Posted by dodgy-keeper
PS - BOD let the cat out of the bag about the ROG age thing
Does that make every other guy who gets on with ROG to be bluffers as well? (i.e., is ROG's good pal Brian O'Driscoll also a bluffer?)
PS - BOD let the cat out of the bag about the ROG age thing
Ahem cough cough, he is growing in stature and confidence, thought he played very well last night. We are all thankful no doubt for ROG's tenure at 10 in the red jersey, but he isnt the future.
http://www.twitter.com/MacL0ve
Irish by birth...MUNSTER by the Grace of God..with Black and Blue Blood
I think that in the new attacking plan we need a breaking threat at 9 & 10 so we dont become predictable and easy to defend. Dont know if ROG can develope that threat at this stage....great player mind.
Anybody who sees a psychiatrist would want their head examined.*&nb sp;Henry Ford
How is having two breaking halfbacks when neither of them can kick being anything but predictable? If we want to be a serious HEC team we need the kicking option and the ability to stretch defences. We've countering FB because Hurley can't kick either, a field day in predictable attacking waves for any top class team. If we put out a hec backline where Zebo is our strongest field kicker we're in serious trouble.
Was wondering how RoG (& Stringer) would cope under Penney's ways, and I was pleased to see an answer in 3 minutes. Watched the game again late last nite with a few mates; first try was setup by Strings, RoG and some great work by Zebo. But looking at it, Dragons (like most teams would...) had 2 watching Downey; 2 slick, crisp passes in front of runners and Downey and his markers are out of the game. We know the result.
RoG had a great game last night, but it might not work against every team. For that we have a different play-maker (Ian Keatley), but as we have seen very effective player too and much improved this season. That both are on top in the kicking duties is a given, not a bonus. NGD have no threat from placed balls; without that they are going and will go nowhere. A FH who can fick accurately and consistently is a must for any team with aspirations - witness Dan Parks (who doesn't contribute much else these days) being snapped up by Elwood.
Penney now seems to have a choices of 2 players for most positions, and I reckon that was a deliberate aim of his coming into this job. He's known as a man who does his homework and he's probably watched the tape of that HEC semi against Wasps where we lost RoG to injury and that lack of equally good backup basically cost us the game. We won a penalty in the middle of the field and we had nobody in the team who could find touch with what would have been a bread-and-butter kick for any FH. That missed touch gave them the possession that led to their winning score.
You indicated that RoG isn't the future; yep, I reckon RP is thinking that way too; hence it was great to see JJ coming on last nite just to show the youngster that he's really close to making a start for Munster. Remember it only takes an injury or 2 and he could be our starting FH in a HEC game......
For now (i.e. in the present) we should thank our lucky stars that our coach has to choose between IK and RoG for his starting FH. Be thankful, most coaches would kill for just one of that pair.
That might be the case anyway regardless as O'Gara seems to me to have lost quite a bit of range with the kicks. Someone on the other thread made a great point about Ospreys being a big test of ROG as he has always struggled with their (and the Welsh INTL teams) blitz defence which pushes him into contact far more than he would like. Theyalso seem to know where he's going to kick.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again (like picking Gordon D'Arcy) and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein
Rob Penney is blessed to have Ronan O'Gara in the squad. Clearly, ROG isn't the "future" but he is the present and an intrinsic playing link with the past: the early professional years, the years building to success, the HEC-winning teams, and the years when, sometimes seemingly single-handedly, he hauled Munster to wins they didn't deserve.
It's not about ROG or Keatley (or even JJ - although that's premature IMO). Penney's challenge will be to find the best role for ROG and get the best out of him in the next couple of seasons as his baton finally gets passed on (or wrenched from his grip - whichever).
Let's just watch how Penney manages the succession, and leave the players make their own cases. I think our future is OK.
"Playing against ROG, your big game plan is to try and pressure him but he’d dump it off to Wally and next thing you’re five metres behind the gain line because he was an absolute freak." Rory Best, Irish Examiner, May 2012
halfbacks dont have to break every time but the opposition has got to believe that they might.
Anybody who sees a psychiatrist would want their head examined.*&nb sp;Henry Ford
thought this even for his penalties to touch. not sure what the wind was like but he was playing it fairly conservatively. wouldnt write him off yet anyway but if hes not performing he cant be seen as an automatic choice and he'll need to perform in rabo games as much as anywhere else
True but of the same token opposition have got to believe you can kick as well. A lot of people like to look at Schmidt's Leinster as our template. Having the physicality of Boss and Sexton is nice but you also have to remember they have good all round playmakers in Nacewa and Kearney as well which compliments the shortcomings of their halfbacks. We don't have those, we need our outhalf in the context of our team to be a greater kicking threat from hand than Leinster do.
At long punts yes, at tactical kicking he's still as wily and accurate as he ever was.
On the blitz defences he has struggled but a lot of that had to do with midfields and packs going backwards or sideways which is always going to make things more difficult for the 10. He's behind a better platform in this side so we shouldn't see it being the headache it was.
Absolutely but this goes for everyone in what is now a very competitive squad. Bar BJ and WDP I don't think anyone should be feeling comfortable for their place, even POC. ROG will have to justify his selection, having a free pass to start the big games wouldn't be good news for anyone.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugb...t-3297212.html
'I agree that it's Jonny's time – but I don't accept it'
UNDERSTANDING is easy, acceptance is absolutely impossible, which is why Ronan O'Gara is still very much an integral part of the Irish set-up.
Those charged with piloting the fortunes of the Ireland [COLOR=#009900 !important]rugby[/COLOR] team have decreed that it's Jonathan Sexton's time to lead Ireland from the out-half berth. With a World Cup just over two years away, the pragmatist in O'Gara understands the logic.
That said, the competitive instinct that has driven the Munsterman to 125 international caps, 1,075 international points, 107 European appearances (106 of them as a starter), 1,303 Heineken Cup points, four Triple Crowns, RBS Six Nations Golden Boot as top points scorer in 2005, '06, '07 and '09, two Heineken Cups and a Grand Slam, will never accept that reality is beyond challenge.
O'Gara is understandably proud of his remarkable personal record, confident that he has achieved so much that his rugby legacy will always be substantial in any comparison. He also shows with his comments that he is the ultimate team player.
"I understand it, absolutely," said O'Gara. "Since the World Cup there's been a decision that it's Jonny's time. And I agree with that. But I don't accept it. If you accept that situation you're no good to the squad.
"Whether it's five minutes or 50 minutes off the bench, or 80 minutes from the start, you have to try and make a positive impact and that's something I'm determined to do whenever I'm called on. I think I've proved over the years that I am still able to do a job for the team."
The hunger to succeed that saw him win his first cap against Scotland back in 2000 still drives him with every bit as much intensity as he approaches his 126th. "You'll be retired long enough. I see a lot of team-mates and friends of mine who have been forced out of the game because of injury and I know how lucky I am. And when you get support from the people who pay to go into the games you know that you're doing something right," he said.
"I derive huge confidence from what I've achieved and I truly believe that I can achieve more. I'm certainly not putting the lid on the tin, there's more to come."
BREEDING GROUND
THAT O'Gara remains as relevant as ever in an ever-evolving game is further testament to his warrior nature. It is, according to the man himself, thanks to the upbringing he received back when the AIL was truly significant.
O'Gara cut his teeth playing for UCC for his fresher year before taking the road less travelled by students by joining Cork Constitution in his second year.
It was a hugely contentious decision, one amplified by the fact that his father Fergal – recently retired – was lecturing at the university. Back then the All-Ireland League was awash with money as clubs desperately tried to hang on to their players in the face of professional offers from England.
Cork Con lost Paul Burke to Bristol and turned to the young College out-half to lead their charge. They weren't disappointed. "The AIL was a fantastic breeding ground back then. It was basically cup rugby every weekend in front of 10,000 or 12,000 people at a ferocious intensity, which is what Test rugby is all about.
"For me playing against the great teams of Garryowen, Shannon and Young Munster was a learning ground that I think is lost to the new generation. I wouldn't have had my career or be the player I am if I hadn't gone through those games where I was getting the s**t kicked out of me in Limerick on a weekly basis.
"Sometimes if you take the right messages from a beating you can learn more. And unfortunately I don't think people understand just how great an education those cup games were back then, which is a loss to the game."
IRELAND HAVE TO SET THE PACE
THE lessons learned from the South African loss must be applied this weekend if Ireland are to beat what is a hugely impressive Argentina side.
Whereas before the Pumas were all brawn with very little brain behind the pack, they are now a far more rounded side and one O'Gara feels will test Ireland in every facet, especially after their experienced in the Rugby Championship.
"Just the very fact that they were playing Test rugby against some of the best teams in the world three weeks ago will have brought them on a ton," said O'Gara, "and they were very impressive during the championship.
"What we have to do is set the pace in this game. With every game of rugby there is one team who sets the pace and one who is chasing.
"We set the pace for 40 minutes against South Africa. For the first half I thought we were really good, played with great intensity and just did the simple things well and were pretty much in control of the game.
"But in the second half we stopped doing what had been yielding dividends and South Africa came back at us and strangled us a little. From everyone's point of view it's hugely disappointing to lose when you were 12-3 up at home. It's very rare in the last 10 years that we have squandered those leads.
"It's hard to give a reason for what happened. Everyone will be coming at it from a different angle. Absolutely we will talk about it because it's important to air what you're feeling, but that will be done in-camp."
There is little time to apply any of the fixes that are deemed necessary with the Argentina game just five days away, but looking ahead O'Gara believes that the onus is on the younger generation to take ownership of the team.
"There are a lot of new faces coming through now and there's not that familiarity there was a couple of years ago because it's a hugely changed team. That's the natural evolution of the thing and it takes time for the bond between players to grow. But they have to grasp this opportunity now or risk seeing it pass them by."
IT'S ABOUT WINNING
O'GARA is, of course, at a different stage of his career than most of his Ireland team-mates, but there is absolutely no hint of his enthusiasm waning. He is as competitive and driven as ever and is still demanding more from himself.
"You could ask the likes of Henry Shefflin why he keeps going with nine All-Ireland medals already in his locker. When you get on to a good thing you actually work harder to try and put distance between you and your opposition.
"It's about winning big games. That's what good seasons come down to, winning big games, and I still want to win the big games."
His contract with Ireland (and Munster) is up at the end of the season. It's not something that has ever really cost O'Gara a thought. His relationship with his employers has always been straightforward and up front.
It's pretty much a given that he will be offered a new central contract. For sure, he plans on playing next season and insists he hasn't actually thought about what will happen around the annual contract negotiations.
"Ireland decide what kind of contract you're offered," he said. "We'll just wait and see. It's seven months away. I haven't even thought beyond Christmas to be honest. I would hope to be playing next season."
- Conor George
Otaga Daily Times 2/5/2012
Taz-Where did you get that information as I have seen nowhere that he(Penney) was ruled out?
Editor - The writer stands by the Penney information.
Otaga Daily Times 3/5/2012
Editor-- This article originally said Rob Penney had missed out on the Munster coaching job. That information was incorrect.
A new central contract?
4 Feb 2011 - Gilmore on the General Election
"Frankfurts way or Labours way."
28 Feb 2012 - Gilmore on a yes vote for the fiscal treaty
"A vote for economic stability and a vote for economic recovery."
That's what comes across the way it is written anyway.
Otaga Daily Times 2/5/2012
Taz-Where did you get that information as I have seen nowhere that he(Penney) was ruled out?
Editor - The writer stands by the Penney information.
Otaga Daily Times 3/5/2012
Editor-- This article originally said Rob Penney had missed out on the Munster coaching job. That information was incorrect.
Given that ROG expects to play for Munster/Ireland until he's put out to pasture in his late 40's, I wonder whereabouts in Europe JJ will head to next season for an opportunity to play first XV rugby.
Interesting to see what Munsterfans think of the 2012 version of ROG HERE (select the 'Player Data' tab, look at who is on top, then scroll down a bit!)
Last edited by Old Dog; 19th-November-2012 at 10:24.
If ROG gets a new central contract, I reckon I'll start watching my interprovincial home games up in the Sportsground.
Utter madness.
It was written by Conor George though, so the stench gives me some comfort.
Conor is a mighty ROG fan in fairness to him!
Otaga Daily Times 2/5/2012
Taz-Where did you get that information as I have seen nowhere that he(Penney) was ruled out?
Editor - The writer stands by the Penney information.
Otaga Daily Times 3/5/2012
Editor-- This article originally said Rob Penney had missed out on the Munster coaching job. That information was incorrect.
The standard of Wumming has gone to pot. That effort is so feeble it's actually wumming itself!
well looka
Valencia has started a thread on what 'luxury' people want for Christmas. I will put my request in here. ROG thanks for the memories, you where magnificent and gave us so much in red and green, but please think about retiring at the end of this season.
Why should he retire.
If he is offered another central contract he should take it, its up to the other O/Hs to pass him.
All this please ROG retire and thanks for the memories is bull and stupid.
[QUOTE=Red October;1140201]If ROG gets a new central contract, I reckon I'll start watching my interprovincial home games up in the Sportsground.
Utter madness.
I will join you
He's currently the number 2 fly half, rightly or wrongly.
I know he could/should/would be overtaken this year etc etc, but sparing the reruns of those discussions can he expect a central contract on the strength of sitting second in the pecking order?
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
DOC got a 2 year one last year
Connacht Rugby
"Live to win. Born to lose"
I believe this is where Central contracting is all wrong. Handing anyone a central contract at 36(which will be the case when his current deal runs out) is incorrect. Let him work out a munster contract and if required by Ireland,let him do so on a pay as you play basis.
Otaga Daily Times 2/5/2012
Taz-Where did you get that information as I have seen nowhere that he(Penney) was ruled out?
Editor - The writer stands by the Penney information.
Otaga Daily Times 3/5/2012
Editor-- This article originally said Rob Penney had missed out on the Munster coaching job. That information was incorrect.
But at that point he'd have been (just about) a first choice wouldn't he?
My understanding was that central contract numbers are being restricted.
How many scrum halves do we have on them?
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow
"Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy
Murray and Reddan.(Tol's one elapsed last year IIRC)
Otaga Daily Times 2/5/2012
Taz-Where did you get that information as I have seen nowhere that he(Penney) was ruled out?
Editor - The writer stands by the Penney information.
Otaga Daily Times 3/5/2012
Editor-- This article originally said Rob Penney had missed out on the Munster coaching job. That information was incorrect.
the more pertinent question is, would he be second choice if he didnt have an international contract?
It's Not a ROG specific case.
There are many benefits to international contracts, and I appreciate players need to maximise their earning power (rightly so), especially considering some of their investment decisions in the heady days of 2005-2006. However, the IRFU has been slow to stand up to some of the more senior players in terms of taking away the golden ticket that is a central contract. 2 year contracts to 32/33/34 (and in ROG's case even older) and most importantly blatant favouritism in terms of selection for central contact holders, in my view doesnt have the best interests of the Irish game at hand.
Last edited by bosh12; 19th-November-2012 at 12:23.
Bosh it's about form for me. Simon Shaw at 39 is playing excellent stuff for Toulon. I don't care what age ROG is. It's a question of whether his form merits being second choice at the moment. At present it probably doesn't. For me that's th emore pertinent issue rather then his age.
If people are living longer it stands to reason they will play longer as well. At the moment Jackson is probably in better form. And thats the criteria why I'd pick him for the 22. Not because he's young and ROG is old.
Connacht Rugby
"Live to win. Born to lose"
Some of the newer central contracts are on a pay as you play basis. Its essentially a provincial contract paid by from the IRFU budget (not the provincial one) and the player then gets bonus money for training camps, squad call ups, match day squads, game time, win bonus etc.
If ROG is to drop off a central contract its a similar situation to Mushy and TOL with a substantial drop in salary that Munster can offer. With Mushy and TOL they could go abroad where as with ROG he hasn't too long left in the legs and the tax break means its not worth his while. Also even if he was to accept a drop in salary to a Munster only contract it would affect his tax break amount so from a financial point of view it is more likely that he would retire when his central contract is up.
\"God gave me the talent but the forwards gave me the ball\" - Jannie De Beer
\"I hesitate to use words like spiritual or religious, but to see what rugby means to Munster people is very moving\" Shaun Payne
I look back on 2008 at the Millennium Stadium as the highlight of my career because, although being capped by New Zealand and playing for the All Blacks was fantastic, this was special. - Doug Howlett
I agree, but Simon Shaw is an exception to the rule. Ryan Giggs is the same in his own sport.
But when the IRFU clearly have preference for playing international contract players ahead of non-international contact players, it makes a bit of a mockery over the form arguement.
For example, what is the likelihood of Gilroy and Marshall starting ahead of Bowe/Trimble and Darcy this weekend? slim to none I d say
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